Not In The Face - The Jeremy Lin Thread 3

[leeramundo]

wow...lin plays one good game and suddenly its a bunch of lin nut hugging posts. Calm down, fact is lins handles still suck, his shots still suck and he is still a turnover machine. Im actually surprised that there is another player on the team who can go toe to toe with lin in a match of "who can turn over the ball in a more ridiculous way", aka Mr. Batum. Lin is a GOOD player, but don't get ahead of yourselves in thinking hes a super star. One thing for sure though, if he keeps playing at the level he has overall this season, he is getting HIS in the offseason. Im sure there are at LEAST 2 top teams in the east who can use a "backup pg" to make up for their crap starting PGs, ie bulls and drose, cavs and kyrie irving

Lins shot is so bad he three point average is now better than lamb and pj. His shot is so bad his fg percentage is the same as kemba. He turns the ball over so much even though batum and kemba turns it over more per game. Sure you can point out that per 36 or he handles the ball less but then you will get those who say he handles the ball plenty. This is a Lin thread so unfortunately you will have poster lauding him beyond rreality and those like you who picks at all his faults despite the many faults of the other players we have. Yes lof can go overboard with their adoration but you are faulting Lin one minute and calling him a backup another. Scoring 24 is kinda a good thing for a backup. Scoring 20+ in 3 of 5 games is a very good thing for a backup. Perhaps you should stop bashing a backup for having so many faults.

There's no problem with Lin fans getting excited about him having a good game. I'm a Lin fan as well and I'm very happy. The problem is everytime he has a good game, you'll have people bringing up Kemba, implying or outright saying that Lin should start over him/is better than him. But when Kemba has a great game and Lin doesn't, these people never bring up Lin, saying that's why he should be a backup, Kemba's better.

[yosemiteben]

I don't understand people's fascination with low TOs especially for players like Lin who actively trying to playmake and attacks the basket aggressively.

5 TOs is bad for anyone. I don't have a fascination with turn overs, but a big part of a PGs job is taking care of the ball.

He made some big shots and my post specifically pointed out that if another player posted his line we'd say he had a good game. With that said, he still turned it over too much.

[yosemiteben]

I'm not going to backseat moderate...

No offense, but saying this in the middle of an essay on another poster's posting history doesn't make a lot of sense.

If folks have an issue with other posters, please PM a mod and we'll handle.

[Elden Payton]

Just pointing out that I got no problem with Lin fans getting excited about Lin's performance in this thread. He had too many TOs but if Batum posts Lin's stat line it'd probably be used as evidence to support a pretty big contract next summer. If there is a safe thread to talk positive about Lin after he has a big game, it's this one.

Just my two cents.

Well said.

I've had a few debates about Lin's ability this season but when he performs he deserves the praise imo.

[KM6]

I don't understand people's fascination with low TOs especially for players like Lin who actively trying to playmake and attacks the basket aggressively.

5 TOs is bad for anyone. I don't have a fascination with turn overs, but a big part of a PGs job is taking care of the ball.

He made some big shots and my post specifically pointed out that if another player posted his line we'd say he had a good game. With that said, he still turned it over too much.

I respectfully disagree. I think a PG's job is to playmake and do whatever it takes to win games. The goal of a match is ultimately to win right? Not to compete at who is better at taking care of the ball or who can score the most points regardless of winning or losing.

Of course if you turn over the ball a lot, usually the team with the highest TOs loses, but as I stated ealier, Lin's TOs usually are from him trying to create for teammates or trying to drive into the paint to cause disruption by either scoring himself or kicking out to open teammates or passing to rolling wing players or big men.

Once again, I would gladly take 20 TOs from Lin if by doing so he creates easy scoring opportunities for his teammates or for himself and wins the game.

[fatlever]

I don't understand people's fascination with low TOs especially for players like Lin who actively trying to playmake and attacks the basket aggressively.

5 TOs is bad for anyone. I don't have a fascination with turn overs, but a big part of a PGs job is taking care of the ball.

He made some big shots and my post specifically pointed out that if another player posted his line we'd say he had a good game. With that said, he still turned it over too much.

I respectfully disagree. I think a PG's job is to playmake and do whatever it takes to win games. The goal of a match is ultimately to win right? Not to compete at who is better at taking care of the ball or who can score the most points regardless of winning or losing.

Of course if you turn over the ball a lot, usually the team with the highest TOs loses, but as I stated ealier, Lin's TOs usually are from him trying to create for teammates or trying to drive into the paint to cause disruption by either scoring himself or kicking out to open teammates or passing to rolling wing players or big men.

Once again, I would gladly take 20 TOs from Lin if by doing so he creates easy scoring opportunities for his teammates or for himself and wins the game.

its hard to take you seriously if this is your argument for defending high turnovers.

[2k15]

I don't understand people's fascination with low TOs especially for players like Lin who actively trying to playmake and attacks the basket aggressively.

5 TOs is bad for anyone. I don't have a fascination with turn overs, but a big part of a PGs job is taking care of the ball.

He made some big shots and my post specifically pointed out that if another player posted his line we'd say he had a good game. With that said, he still turned it over too much.

I respectfully disagree. I think a PG's job is to playmake and do whatever it takes to win games. The goal of a match is ultimately to win right? Not to compete at who is better at taking care of the ball or who can score the most points regardless of winning or losing.

Of course if you turn over the ball a lot, usually the team with the highest TOs loses, but as I stated ealier, Lin's TOs usually are from him trying to create for teammates or trying to drive into the paint to cause disruption by either scoring himself or kicking out to open teammates or passing to rolling wing players or big men.

Once again, I would gladly take 20 TOs from Lin if by doing so he creates easy scoring opportunities for his teammates or for himself and wins the game.

yeah but allowing for 20 TOs under the assumption that we get a win is not a very useful statement right. the reason why TOs are bad is as you noted, it usually results in loses. if you take away the downside of high TO, then of course its fine. in any given game and in any given situation, you have to judge the risks of making a good pass versus a bad pass, and try to make more good passes. if being aggressive might result in more TOs than completed passes then maybe that means your bigs cant catch your passes, and that's a reason to stop making those passes.

crazy is the definition of doing something 1000 times and expecting different results every time.

[spaceballer]

I'm not going to backseat moderate...

No offense, but saying this in the middle of an essay on another poster's posting history doesn't make a lot of sense.

If folks have an issue with other posters, please PM a mod and we'll handle.

I've removed it in deference to your point.

[leeramundo]

I don't understand people's fascination with low TOs especially for players like Lin who actively trying to playmake and attacks the basket aggressively.

5 TOs is bad for anyone. I don't have a fascination with turn overs, but a big part of a PGs job is taking care of the ball.

He made some big shots and my post specifically pointed out that if another player posted his line we'd say he had a good game. With that said, he still turned it over too much.

I respectfully disagree. I think a PG's job is to playmake and do whatever it takes to win games. The goal of a match is ultimately to win right? Not to compete at who is better at taking care of the ball or who can score the most points regardless of winning or losing.

Of course if you turn over the ball a lot, usually the team with the highest TOs loses, but as I stated ealier, Lin's TOs usually are from him trying to create for teammates or trying to drive into the paint to cause disruption by either scoring himself or kicking out to open teammates or passing to rolling wing players or big men.

Once again, I would gladly take 20 TOs from Lin if by doing so he creates easy scoring opportunities for his teammates or for himself and wins the game.

Efficiency is key. That's what assist/TO ratio is for, and Lin's ratio is not stellar. If Lin averages 5 to's but 15 assists, then that'd be totally fine, in fact, that'd be great. A scorer's job is to score, so can your argument not be used to justify chucking? High risk high reward, can't make em if you don't shoot em. Efficiency. Batum also has a TO problem, how come nobody ever justifies his TO's with this argument?

[KM6]

5 TOs is bad for anyone. I don't have a fascination with turn overs, but a big part of a PGs job is taking care of the ball.

He made some big shots and my post specifically pointed out that if another player posted his line we'd say he had a good game. With that said, he still turned it over too much.

I respectfully disagree. I think a PG's job is to playmake and do whatever it takes to win games. The goal of a match is ultimately to win right? Not to compete at who is better at taking care of the ball or who can score the most points regardless of winning or losing.

Of course if you turn over the ball a lot, usually the team with the highest TOs loses, but as I stated ealier, Lin's TOs usually are from him trying to create for teammates or trying to drive into the paint to cause disruption by either scoring himself or kicking out to open teammates or passing to rolling wing players or big men.

Once again, I would gladly take 20 TOs from Lin if by doing so he creates easy scoring opportunities for his teammates or for himself and wins the game.

its hard to take you seriously if this is your argument for defending high turnovers.

Well, I am not trying to defend his TOs, which had improved greatly over the years. I am simply saying I don't care if he turns the ball over if by doing so it enables him to play aggressively and creates easy baskets for himself and his teammates and it resulted in a win. It's just my personal opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and express them so long as they don't disrespect others. Isn't that what the forum is for?

[fatlever]

5 TOs is bad for anyone. I don't have a fascination with turn overs, but a big part of a PGs job is taking care of the ball.

He made some big shots and my post specifically pointed out that if another player posted his line we'd say he had a good game. With that said, he still turned it over too much.

I respectfully disagree. I think a PG's job is to playmake and do whatever it takes to win games. The goal of a match is ultimately to win right? Not to compete at who is better at taking care of the ball or who can score the most points regardless of winning or losing.

Of course if you turn over the ball a lot, usually the team with the highest TOs loses, but as I stated ealier, Lin's TOs usually are from him trying to create for teammates or trying to drive into the paint to cause disruption by either scoring himself or kicking out to open teammates or passing to rolling wing players or big men.

Once again, I would gladly take 20 TOs from Lin if by doing so he creates easy scoring opportunities for his teammates or for himself and wins the game.

A scorer's job is to score, so can your argument not be used to justify chucking? High risk high reward, can't make em if you don't shoot em. Efficiency. Batum also has a TO problem, how come nobody ever justifies his TO's with this argument?

That's kinda what I was thinking. Where is this same mentality when it comes to guys like Kemba shooting 5-for-25 in a win? But hey, Kemba had to keep shooting to keep defense honest and he made two shots at the end of the game and we won, so its perfectly acceptable etc... I just don't like double-standards and it seems some of Lin's fans constantly create double-standards to either excuse some of his play or to talk down the play of others . Apply the same rules to everyone, if that is your argument.

[bws94]

I don't understand people's fascination with low TOs especially for players like Lin who actively trying to playmake and attacks the basket aggressively.

5 TOs is bad for anyone. I don't have a fascination with turn overs, but a big part of a PGs job is taking care of the ball.

He made some big shots and my post specifically pointed out that if another player posted his line we'd say he had a good game. With that said, he still turned it over too much.

While I agree that 5 TOs are too many and Lin should take care of the ball better, some of his better games he has high everything. High points, high assists, high rebounds, high turnovers. Sometimes he just flat out plays better when he makes more TOs. I think that's because he makes the risky pass and a few get picked off. Or sometimes he just barrels into people and it is an offensive foul TO. He has better controlled aggression now but in almost every game he has a period where he tries to do too much and has TOs in succession. PFV, a Lin analyst and a good one, calls them "turnover bundles".

[bws94]

I don't understand people's fascination with low TOs especially for players like Lin who actively trying to playmake and attacks the basket aggressively.

5 TOs is bad for anyone. I don't have a fascination with turn overs, but a big part of a PGs job is taking care of the ball.

He made some big shots and my post specifically pointed out that if another player posted his line we'd say he had a good game. With that said, he still turned it over too much.

I respectfully disagree. I think a PG's job is to playmake and do whatever it takes to win games. The goal of a match is ultimately to win right? Not to compete at who is better at taking care of the ball or who can score the most points regardless of winning or losing.

Of course if you turn over the ball a lot, usually the team with the highest TOs loses, but as I stated ealier, Lin's TOs usually are from him trying to create for teammates or trying to drive into the paint to cause disruption by either scoring himself or kicking out to open teammates or passing to rolling wing players or big men.

Once again, I would gladly take 20 TOs from Lin if by doing so he creates easy scoring opportunities for his teammates or for himself and wins the game.

Er, 10 TOs and Lin is taking a seat. But I get your point.

[bws94]

About TOs, a lot of great players are high turnover players. I looked once and saw a bunch of hall of famers on that list.

Harden is a guy who is high TO. He's a facilitating SG, a de facto PG, and turns the ball over like crazy. Yet he has big numbers because he's taking the risk.

Low TOs are better than high TOs but a player can't play not to make a mistake. Sometimes they just have to keep playing. But, of course, there is a limit as to too many and Lin definitely can border on that. But 5 TOs isn't like 8 or 9 that I've seen from some ball handlers. It's bad, but not horrible for the amount of touches he had and 32 mpg.

[bws94]

Here's the page I looked at. A lot of hall of famers in this list.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/tov_career.html

[2k15]

Here's the page I looked at. A lot of hall of famers in this list.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/tov_career.html

TOs usually come with usage. that page is not very useful without context of usage, how many games/minutes played etc. it could just mean that the HOFers played a lot of games so they would have a lot of TOs just by nature of having played a lot.

[13th Man]

About his TOs there are good TOs and bad TOs, when he tries to make a play and a teammate (*achem*..such as Hawes) fumbles the ball around and loses it, I don't consider it that bad, but when he loses it via sloppy handles, it is frustrating. I think Lin has improved his decision making and overall court awareness but his handles continue to pose a problem. The TOs from the last game weren't too bad imo, he had a bad one where he left his feet with no one to pass to but the last 2 late in the 4th he was trying to find teammates on short passes but didn't connect.

[leeramundo]

Here's the page I looked at. A lot of hall of famers in this list.

Won't comment on some of the other players, as many aren't PG's, but just a quick glance and saw John Stockton. He averaged 2.8 TO's, but 10.5 assists, that's a ratio of 3.75 for his career (this is why he's considered one of the best pg's ever, that ratio is amazing). Next PG on the list is Kidd, who's got a career ratio of 3, kind of the benchmark for efficient playmaking. Lin's for this season is 1.73, 1.9 for his career. It's not about how many TO's, it's about efficiency.

I'm a Lin fan myself and I actually think he's a good playmaker, and would be a very good one if he was in a system better suited for him with teammates that match his style better. I think he did a great job overall running the team as pg last night despite the TO's. I just don't understand why some fans just won't concede that he's got a TO problem.

[bws94]

Here's the page I looked at. A lot of hall of famers in this list.

Won't comment on some of the other players, as many aren't PG's, but just a quick glance and saw John Stockton. He averaged 2.8 TO's, but 10.5 assists, that's a ratio of 3.75 for his career (this is why he's considered one of the best pg's ever, that ratio is amazing). Next PG on the list is Kidd, who's got a career ratio of 3, kind of the benchmark for efficient playmaking. Lin's for this season is 1.73, 1.9 for his career. It's not about how many TO's, it's about efficiency.

Yes, Lin's assist to TO ratio isn't great. 8/5 is not 2:1 which would be considered good. If guys had made 2 more shots off of good Lin feeds, it's 10/5 and he has his 2:1. But they didn't. Assists sometimes have to do with the quality of guys getting the ball as well. There are other things such as good looks and fouls from good looks. I think Lin does pretty well there.

Of course, Stockton/Kidd are in a different category all-together. But Stockton had Malone, they were a tandem. Kidd was a great player, passer and didn't even have a good shot until he developed a pretty reliable 3-ball. Hell of a defender too.

I guess sometimes we look at TOs and go bad but there are other factors there as well.

[leeramundo]

Here's the page I looked at. A lot of hall of famers in this list.

Won't comment on some of the other players, as many aren't PG's, but just a quick glance and saw John Stockton. He averaged 2.8 TO's, but 10.5 assists, that's a ratio of 3.75 for his career (this is why he's considered one of the best pg's ever, that ratio is amazing). Next PG on the list is Kidd, who's got a career ratio of 3, kind of the benchmark for efficient playmaking. Lin's for this season is 1.73, 1.9 for his career. It's not about how many TO's, it's about efficiency.

Yes, Lin's assist to TO ratio isn't great. 8/5 is not 2:1 which would be considered good. If guys had made 2 more shots off of good Lin feeds, it's 10/5 and he has his 2:1. But they didn't. Assists sometimes have to do with the quality of guys getting the ball as well. There are other things such as good looks and fouls from good looks. I think Lin does pretty well there.

Of course, Stockton/Kidd are in a different category all-together. But Stockton had Malone, they were a tandem. Kidd was a great player, passer and didn't even have a good shot until he developed a pretty reliable 3-ball. Hell of a defender too.

I guess sometimes we look at TOs and go bad but there are other factors there as well.

I understand, I actually thought he did a good job overall playmaking in the Cavs game, and has been one of the best playmakers on the team given what he has to work with. He hasn't really had a great roller for the PNR since NY with Chandler. He's had Asik, Jordan Hill, and Carlos Boozer to work with mainly, and for some reason Dwight never wanted to play PNR. You've mentioned before how Lin's passing style doesn't quite fit with this team as well as Batum's and I agree, which is why I tend to think Lin's a better passer than he's shown. Still, 1.73 for this season is subpar to me and something he needs to continue to work on.