Not In The Face - The Jeremy Lin Thread 3

[kastuul]

Lin, Lamb and Batum don't play well in 2nd unit.

[TinmanZBoy]

I think Lin was fine... just could not knock down open jumpers, it happens... he made right plays.....

[TinmanZBoy]

when Nic and Kemba both perform well, basically you can tell lin's night is done.... he will not have a lot minutes and a good stats night... you saw it early in the season and it is going to be worse since MKG is back in the lineup now... that's the reality....

[Tracymcgoaty]

when Nic and Kemba both perform well, basically you can tell lin's night is done.... he will not have a lot minutes and a good stats night... you saw it early in the season and it is going to be worse since MKG is back in the lineup now... that's the reality....

Well then he should leave because he did not sign up for that. He signed here because he would be allowed to play his game. which he hasn't

[JMAC3]

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/avgPoints/position/point-guards

All Lin fans should take a look at what is really going on here. I posted stats for NBA point guards and wanted you guys to see where Kemba and Lin rank against each other and the rest of the NBA.

Currently Kemba is the 5th in MPG at 35.9 mpg and Lin is tied for 26th with 27.1. So Lin plays just under 8 minutes less per game than Kemba. Not like it is a 20 mpg discrepancy like many of you try to make it out to be.

Currently Kemba is the 6th leading scorer among PGs, Lin is the 21st. Pretty great 1 2 scoring punch at PG position.

Next lets take a look both shot attempts per game and field goal percentage. Among the top 8 scorers among point guards, Kemba is tied for the 7th most shot attempts with only Kyle Lowery taking fewer. Next lets look at field goal percentage- look at the top 10 scorers at point guard, outside of Curry, Westbrook, and Paul (3 elite nba players) he is in the same neighborhood as all the other top guys. Lastly both his three point percentage and free throw percentage are in the upper half of the top 10 scorers at his position.

If you look at the numbers, they in no way say Kemba is taking more shots than anyone else who is scoring as much as he does and he is doing it on par at the same percentage as the other top point guards outside the three elite PGs (curry, westbrook, and paul). So we can stop with the Kemba is a chucker when in reality he is at the top of his position in efficiency when you look at how much he scores and the percentage he shoots.



I say all this because Lin is doing extremely well when you look at him compared to the rest of the NBA. He is getting nearly starter minutes and scoring in the top 20- (take out Bradley who is a Sg) at his position. He is behind a top 10 pg in the league and still finding a lot of minutes. What more could he ask for?

Is he really going to go to Philly or Brooklyn and play 40 minutes a game on a historically bad NBA team? Is he going to ring chase with Golden State or Cleveland and play 10-18 minutes a night in the regular season and even fewer in the playoffs? Fact is Lin is in a great situation that plays to his strengths of scoring, but also getting to be a facilitator and play over half the game a night. Not many backup Pgs get to do that, evident from the stats.

Sure could Lin being having more minutes as the primary ball handler? Sure, but in the NBA today your best players are the primary ball handlers (Durant, Harden, Batum, Gordon Hayward, Lebron, Wade, Paul George, Galinari, Parsons, Melo, Jimmy Butler and even Derozan). So you stick Lin on half the NBA teams he is instantly number 2 ball handler at best just like he is with the hornets and the rest of the teams all have high usage point guards, where Lin would be fighting for minutes at PG (Wall, Rubio, Rondo, Lillard, Bledsoe, Conley, Chris Paul, Curry, Jackson, Teague, Parker, Isaiah Thomas and even Elfrid Payton).

So the only places in the NBA where he could be the primary ball handler are Philly, Brooklyn, and Maybe the Pelicans or Bucks. And all of those teams are going to be lottery teams and looking at possibly taking a PG or primary playmaker with their pick.

I really like Lin and hope we are able to keep him because he is great in his role with us and I don't think he is getting a raw deal here by any means. I think it would just make the game more fun if everybody would just temper their expectations for him and stop trying to force him into a player he is not, a superstar. I am a huge MKG fan, but I am not screaming for him to be option 1 on offense or for him to be traded so he can average over 20 points a game. This is because I understand his role and want to see him do well and have realistic expectations. When he plays like he did tonight I love it, but when he has a bad game I do not point the finger at other players or the coaching staff.

Charlotte has a really nice team growing together right now and I would love to see Lin be a part of it for the longterm.

[Tracymcgoaty]

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/avgPoints/position/point-guards

All Lin fans should take a look at what is really going on here. I posted stats for NBA point guards and wanted you guys to see where Kemba and Lin rank against each other and the rest of the NBA.

Currently Kemba is the 5th in MPG at 35.9 mpg and Lin is tied for 26th with 27.1. So Lin plays just under 8 minutes less per game than Kemba. Not like it is a 20 mpg discrepancy like many of you try to make it out to be.

Currently Kemba is the 6th leading scorer among PGs, Lin is the 21st. Pretty great 1 2 scoring punch at PG position.

Next lets take a look both shot attempts per game and field goal percentage. Among the top 8 scorers among point guards, Kemba is tied for the 7th most shot attempts with only Kyle Lowery taking fewer. Next lets look at field goal percentage- look at the top 10 scorers at point guard, outside of Curry, Westbrook, and Paul (3 elite nba players) he is in the same neighborhood as all the other top guys. Lastly both his three point percentage and free throw percentage are in the upper half of the top 10 scorers at his position.

If you look at the numbers, they in no way say Kemba is taking more shots than anyone else who is scoring as much as he does and he is doing it on par at the same percentage as the other top point guards outside the three elite PGs (curry, westbrook, and paul). So we can stop with the Kemba is a chucker when in reality he is at the top of his position in efficiency when you look at how much he scores and the percentage he shoots.



I say all this because Lin is doing extremely well when you look at him compared to the rest of the NBA. He is getting nearly starter minutes and scoring in the top 20- (take out Bradley who is a Sg) at his position. He is behind a top 10 pg in the league and still finding a lot of minutes. What more could he ask for?

Is he really going to go to Philly or Brooklyn and play 40 minutes a game on a historically bad NBA team? Is he going to ring chase with Golden State or Cleveland and play 10-18 minutes a night in the regular season and even fewer in the playoffs? Fact is Lin is in a great situation that plays to his strengths of scoring, but also getting to be a facilitator and play over half the game a night. Not many backup Pgs get to do that, evident from the stats.

Sure could Lin being having more minutes as the primary ball handler? Sure, but in the NBA today your best players are the primary ball handlers (Durant, Harden, Batum, Gordon Hayward, Lebron, Wade, Paul George, Galinari, Parsons, Melo, Jimmy Butler and even Derozan). So you stick Lin on half the NBA teams he is instantly number 2 ball handler at best just like he is with the hornets and the rest of the teams all have high usage point guards, where Lin would be fighting for minutes at PG (Wall, Rubio, Rondo, Lillard, Bledsoe, Conley, Chris Paul, Curry, Jackson, Teague, Parker, Isaiah Thomas and even Elfrid Payton).

So the only places in the NBA where he could be the primary ball handler are Philly, Brooklyn, and Maybe the Pelicans or Bucks. And all of those teams are going to be lottery teams and looking at possibly taking a PG or primary playmaker with their pick.

I really like Lin and hope we are able to keep him because he is great in his role with us and I don't think he is getting a raw deal here by any means. I think it would just make the game more fun if everybody would just temper their expectations for him and stop trying to force him into a player he is not, a superstar. I am a huge MKG fan, but I am not screaming for him to be option 1 on offense or for him to be traded so he can average over 20 points a game. This is because I understand his role and want to see him do well and have realistic expectations. When he plays like he did tonight I love it, but when he has a bad game I do not point the finger at other players or the coaching staff.

Charlotte has a really nice team growing together right now and I would love to see Lin be a part of it for the longterm.

When does Lin get to handle the ball except when batum or kemba is injured? and since when is batum good at handling the ball? Batum is having a career year at hornets averaging about 15 points a game 5.5 assist a game and an astounding 3.2 turnovers per gam. thats a terrible ratio for a ballhandler. All i see is Lin deffering to batum on the second unit. Hey kemba is the franchise PG im not going to say anything about that. But take batum out of the second unit he should not be handling the ball thats what Lin is there for. If anything he is being there to bring the ball up and give it to batum and let batum make something out of it. when in fact Lin can create just as well. He is a waste on this team if this is how it will be when charlotte is at full health. You talk like charlotte is a contender. Batum may leave, Lin will probably leave he wants to be a starter, he wont get to be that here and that is understandable you have a PG you have invested in.

[JMAC3]

When does Lin get to handle the ball except when batum or kemba is injured? and since when is batum good at handling the ball? Batum is having a career year at hornets averaging about 15 points a game 5.5 assist a game and an astounding 3.2 turnovers per gam. thats a terrible ratio for a ballhandler. All i see is Lin deffering to batum on the second unit. Hey kemba is the franchise PG im not going to say anything about that. But take batum out of the second unit he should not be handling the ball thats what Lin is there for. If anything he is being there to bring the ball up and give it to batum and let batum make something out of it. when in fact Lin can create just as well. He is a waste on this team if this is how it will be when charlotte is at full health. You talk like charlotte is a contender. Batum may leave, Lin will probably leave he wants to be a starter, he wont get to be that here and that is understandable you have a PG you have invested in.

Never mind, you are not getting my point. Where is Lin going to go and be the starter at? Even if he does start is he the primary ball handler on that team?

He has been a starter with Lakers, Houston, and Knicks but he did not have the ball enough their either??? So tell me where can he go that it will be so much better for him? Im curious.

My point is this is the modern day NBA not highschool basketball where the PG has the ball 90% of the time and initiates the offense every play. That is the job of the best players, watch the Pacers or even the Jazz play and see how much their point guard really runs pick and roll or has the ball in his hands at the end of the shot clock. Both things that Lin does more for Charlotte than their point guards do.

[Reflexx]

Lin would actually fit pretty well on the Spurs.

[TinmanZBoy]

when Nic and Kemba both perform well, basically you can tell lin's night is done.... he will not have a lot minutes and a good stats night... you saw it early in the season and it is going to be worse since MKG is back in the lineup now... that's the reality....

Well then he should leave because he did not sign up for that. He signed here because he would be allowed to play his game. which he hasn't

nah, I don't think lin is not allowed to play his game, the hornets' offense is probably one of the most PnR heavy in the league, in general it suits lin's game and lin has performed reasonably well...
however, is it an ideal situation for lin? or ideal offense for lin? No, I don't think so... i think lin will definitely test the free market again...i think the hornets FO and coach clifford all know it, i bet they want to bring lin back on a reasonable price, on the other hand, it is also up to if lin will have better options, roles or money wise....
Lin will not be a major free agent though, teams usually focus on their main targets first (the durant, conley, batum etc...) then consider rotation role players (lin in this category)....u just have to wait and see....

[Tracymcgoaty]

When does Lin get to handle the ball except when batum or kemba is injured? and since when is batum good at handling the ball? Batum is having a career year at hornets averaging about 15 points a game 5.5 assist a game and an astounding 3.2 turnovers per gam. thats a terrible ratio for a ballhandler. All i see is Lin deffering to batum on the second unit. Hey kemba is the franchise PG im not going to say anything about that. But take batum out of the second unit he should not be handling the ball thats what Lin is there for. If anything he is being there to bring the ball up and give it to batum and let batum make something out of it. when in fact Lin can create just as well. He is a waste on this team if this is how it will be when charlotte is at full health. You talk like charlotte is a contender. Batum may leave, Lin will probably leave he wants to be a starter, he wont get to be that here and that is understandable you have a PG you have invested in.

Never mind, you are not getting my point. Where is Lin going to go and be the starter at? Even if he does start is he the primary ball handler on that team?

He has been a starter with Lakers, Houston, and Knicks but he did not have the ball enough their either??? So tell me where can he go that it will be so much better for him? Im curious.

My point is this is the modern day NBA not highschool basketball where the PG has the ball 90% of the time and initiates the offense every play. That is the job of the best players, watch the Pacers or even the Jazz play and see how much their point guard really runs pick and roll or has the ball in his hands at the end of the shot clock. Both things that Lin does more for Charlotte than their point guards do.

i get your point. i just dont agree with you that This place is ideal for Lin, it isn't I would not have any problem if he played 20 min on a team that would let him initiate offense, Charlotte does not let him do that. they got batum doing that. He played 43 minutes tonight in a blowout. he distrupts the second unit more than he helps it. Its basically let batum do something with it. Lin said he came to this team to be kembas backup and we all knew that. BUT he would be able to play the style that he likes on the second unit. So far this season that has not happened. Might change during the second half altough i dont think so. And Lins minutes will go down on this team. Lin is 27 hes got time but not here in charlotte in my opinion. Knicks are available,nets are available. Altough not contenders its a place for Lin to be a primary ball handler and build up his reputation as a starter. Thats what he wants to start.

[bws94]

Lin is a Hornet and this is a Hornet sub-section I think reserved to talking about Lin's play as a Hornet. So maybe it's best to post in the context of Lin as a Hornet. At the end of the season, if the section is active, then maybe where he may go or if he'll re-sign with the Hornets would make more sense.

Lin's usage is different as a Hornet than other teams but he still facilitates and is used for a lot of different reasons: draw fouls, play good defense, draw charges, hit big clutch shots and make clutch plays, start when SG Batum or PG Kemba can't play where he's stepped up big time, be a 3rd facilitator on the floor with Kemba and Batum, be the main facilitator/leader of the 2nd unit (that's been a problem lately).

I think his usage needs to be better integrated as it keeps him in a flow. I think he should play with MKG and Cliff is making a mistake with him not playing with MKG.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Lin is a Hornet and this is a Hornet sub-section I think reserved to talking about Lin's play as a Hornet. So maybe it's best to post in the context of Lin as a Hornet. At the end of the season, if the section is active, then maybe where he may go or if he'll re-sign with the Hornets would make more sense.

Lin's usage is different as a Hornet than other teams but he still facilitates and is used for a lot of different reasons: draw fouls, play good defense, draw charges, hit big clutch shots and make clutch plays, start when SG Batum or PG Kemba can't play where he's stepped up big time, be a 3rd facilitator on the floor with Kemba and Batum, be the main facilitator/leader of the 2nd unit (that's been a problem lately).

I think his usage needs to be better integrated as it keeps him in a flow. I think he should play with MKG and Cliff is making a mistake with him not playing with MKG.

i agree with you on that point but still.He cant thrive in a second unit with batum as the main ballhandler it does not work for the second units favor. yes i have no problems with Lin being 3d facilitator on the first unit. but the second unit is supposed to be where lin initiates not being thrown into the corner.

[TinmanZBoy]

let's put this way....
Lin @ 2 millions/year is ideal for the Hornets... or maybe even @ 6 millions/year (i personally think that's the most hornets FO would offer Lin next summer if lin opts out) it is ideal for the Hornets...
however, it might not be an ideal situation for Lin...

[bws94]

Lin is a Hornet and this is a Hornet sub-section I think reserved to talking about Lin's play as a Hornet. So maybe it's best to post in the context of Lin as a Hornet. At the end of the season, if the section is active, then maybe where he may go or if he'll re-sign with the Hornets would make more sense.

Lin's usage is different as a Hornet than other teams but he still facilitates and is used for a lot of different reasons: draw fouls, play good defense, draw charges, hit big clutch shots and make clutch plays, start when SG Batum or PG Kemba can't play where he's stepped up big time, be a 3rd facilitator on the floor with Kemba and Batum, be the main facilitator/leader of the 2nd unit (that's been a problem lately).

I think his usage needs to be better integrated as it keeps him in a flow. I think he should play with MKG and Cliff is making a mistake with him not playing with MKG.

i agree with you on that point but still.He cant thrive in a second unit with batum as the main ballhandler it does not work for the second units favor. yes i have no problems with Lin being 3d facilitator on the first unit. but the second unit is supposed to be where lin initiates not being thrown into the corner.

Batum needs to leave the 2nd unit. A lot of people agree. It's throwing the guys off. Earlier he played some with them but now it's throwing guys off. MKG would be better and fits their style better. Marv is good too.

[Tracymcgoaty]

let's put this way....
Lin @ 2 millions/year is ideal for the Hornets... or maybe even @ 6 millions/year (i personally think that's the most hornets FO would offer Lin next summer if lin opts out) it is ideal for the Hornets...
however, it might not be an ideal situation for Lin...

If this is how he would be used it would be a waste of a year considering he said he wants to be a starter.

[TinmanZBoy]

Lin is a Hornet and this is a Hornet sub-section I think reserved to talking about Lin's play as a Hornet. So maybe it's best to post in the context of Lin as a Hornet. At the end of the season, if the section is active, then maybe where he may go or if he'll re-sign with the Hornets would make more sense.

Lin's usage is different as a Hornet than other teams but he still facilitates and is used for a lot of different reasons: draw fouls, play good defense, draw charges, hit big clutch shots and make clutch plays, start when SG Batum or PG Kemba can't play where he's stepped up big time, be a 3rd facilitator on the floor with Kemba and Batum, be the main facilitator/leader of the 2nd unit (that's been a problem lately).

I think his usage needs to be better integrated as it keeps him in a flow. I think he should play with MKG and Cliff is making a mistake with him not playing with MKG.

i agree with you on that point but still.He cant thrive in a second unit with batum as the main ballhandler it does not work for the second units favor. yes i have no problems with Lin being 3d facilitator on the first unit. but the second unit is supposed to be where lin initiates not being thrown into the corner.

the majority of hornets offense are motion strong, Nic and Kemba, Kemba and Lin, Nic and Lin... occasionally Lamb is involved too...
when all three share the court, usually Nic and Kemba run the strong side, lin camps in the weak side .... Lin got touches to make plays.... lin does not bring the ball up to the court does not mean he does not have the ball... the hornets usually don't get something out of the first PnR anyway... usually after the second PnR, you will see the mismatches, driving lanes etc... it is more like what spurs run...

it is not MDA system, in which the PG (lin or not lin) dominate the ball +70% of time, and a lot top 1/5, 1/4 PnRs, in which shooter are all on the corners to create space let the PG make plays... MDA even set a lot double screens to free lin for him to make plays... those days are over, don't dream about it in the hornets team

[fatlever]

You guys might be on to something with Batum on the 2nd unit. It hasn't worked the last few games. I think Batum is suffering from a bit of his own version of hero ball on that unit. I'm interested to see the O/D ratings of the 5-man unit of Lin, Batum, Lamb, Frank, Hawes after tonight's game. That lineup has 5 guys capable of running the offense.

Counter argument against MKG getting more minutes with bench unit. MKG's main role on this team is for defense, not to mesh with a 2nd unit. Cliff is not going to waste MKG vs the other team's bench unit. MKG is being saved so that he can guard the best player on the other team. It is very unlikely that you will see MKG getting heavy minutes with the bench unit, unless you have a situation where someone like Lebron/Durant/Melo etc.. is playing with their bench unit.

Perhaps the compromise is more Marvin at SF in the 2nd unit.

Or [GASP] the 10-man rotation with PJ.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Lin is a Hornet and this is a Hornet sub-section I think reserved to talking about Lin's play as a Hornet. So maybe it's best to post in the context of Lin as a Hornet. At the end of the season, if the section is active, then maybe where he may go or if he'll re-sign with the Hornets would make more sense.

Lin's usage is different as a Hornet than other teams but he still facilitates and is used for a lot of different reasons: draw fouls, play good defense, draw charges, hit big clutch shots and make clutch plays, start when SG Batum or PG Kemba can't play where he's stepped up big time, be a 3rd facilitator on the floor with Kemba and Batum, be the main facilitator/leader of the 2nd unit (that's been a problem lately).

I think his usage needs to be better integrated as it keeps him in a flow. I think he should play with MKG and Cliff is making a mistake with him not playing with MKG.

i agree with you on that point but still.He cant thrive in a second unit with batum as the main ballhandler it does not work for the second units favor. yes i have no problems with Lin being 3d facilitator on the first unit. but the second unit is supposed to be where lin initiates not being thrown into the corner.

the majority of hornets offense are motion strong, Nic and Kemba, Kemba and Lin, Nic and Lin... occasionally Lamb is involved too...
when all three share the court, usually Nic and Kemba run the strong side, lin camps in the weak side .... Lin got touches to make plays.... lin does not bring the ball up to the court does not mean he does not have the ball... the hornets usually don't get something out of the first PnR anyway... usually after the second PnR, you will see the mismatches, driving lanes etc... it is more like what spurs run...

it is not MDA system, in which the PG (lin or not lin) dominate the ball +70% of time, and a lot top 1/5, 1/4 PnRs, in which shooter are all on the corners to create space let the PG make plays... MDA even set a lot double screens to free lin for him to make plays... those days are over, don't dream about it in the hornets team

Im not expecting Mda style offense for Lin, what i want for Lin on the second unit is to be a primary ball handler when the bigs get the rebound they should look for Lin he needs the ball to get going. too many times lamb rebounds and does his own little thing, or kaminsky gets the rebound looks lin off and passes to batum, happens way too much. Lin does not get to run the second unit. He needs to get comfortable to produce.

[TinmanZBoy]

Lin is a Hornet and this is a Hornet sub-section I think reserved to talking about Lin's play as a Hornet. So maybe it's best to post in the context of Lin as a Hornet. At the end of the season, if the section is active, then maybe where he may go or if he'll re-sign with the Hornets would make more sense.

Lin's usage is different as a Hornet than other teams but he still facilitates and is used for a lot of different reasons: draw fouls, play good defense, draw charges, hit big clutch shots and make clutch plays, start when SG Batum or PG Kemba can't play where he's stepped up big time, be a 3rd facilitator on the floor with Kemba and Batum, be the main facilitator/leader of the 2nd unit (that's been a problem lately).

I think his usage needs to be better integrated as it keeps him in a flow. I think he should play with MKG and Cliff is making a mistake with him not playing with MKG.

i agree with you on that point but still.He cant thrive in a second unit with batum as the main ballhandler it does not work for the second units favor. yes i have no problems with Lin being 3d facilitator on the first unit. but the second unit is supposed to be where lin initiates not being thrown into the corner.

Batum needs to leave the 2nd unit. A lot of people agree. It's throwing the guys off. Earlier he played some with them but now it's throwing guys off. MKG would be better and fits their style better. Marv is good too.

coach likes to have two playmakers on the court at the same time.... tbh, Nic/Lin/lamb/Frank/Marvin probably was the best lineup before Nic's injury... they just did not play well the last couple of games.... any lineup with Nic/lin should be good, they have so many variety of plays...
lamb and Frank needs to focus on defense more, not be too anxious on offense...

[TinmanZBoy]

i agree with you on that point but still.He cant thrive in a second unit with batum as the main ballhandler it does not work for the second units favor. yes i have no problems with Lin being 3d facilitator on the first unit. but the second unit is supposed to be where lin initiates not being thrown into the corner.

the majority of hornets offense are motion strong, Nic and Kemba, Kemba and Lin, Nic and Lin... occasionally Lamb is involved too...
when all three share the court, usually Nic and Kemba run the strong side, lin camps in the weak side .... Lin got touches to make plays.... lin does not bring the ball up to the court does not mean he does not have the ball... the hornets usually don't get something out of the first PnR anyway... usually after the second PnR, you will see the mismatches, driving lanes etc... it is more like what spurs run...

it is not MDA system, in which the PG (lin or not lin) dominate the ball +70% of time, and a lot top 1/5, 1/4 PnRs, in which shooter are all on the corners to create space let the PG make plays... MDA even set a lot double screens to free lin for him to make plays... those days are over, don't dream about it in the hornets team

Im not expecting Mda style offense for Lin, what i want for Lin on the second unit is to be a primary ball handler when the bigs get the rebound they should look for Lin he needs the ball to get going. too many times lamb rebounds and does his own little thing, or kaminsky gets the rebound looks lin off and passes to batum, happens way too much. Lin does not get to run the second unit. He needs to get comfortable to produce.

they need to talk over or coach need to call some set plays for lin to get him going... yeah, I think lamb and frank were a little too anxious on offense the last couple of games, they will adjust...