Not In The Face - The Jeremy Lin Thread 3

[bws94]

Great stuff, TTNN. So does Kemba run the plays or break them since he's hanging onto the ball so long?

Different Lin fans out there. Some want MDA 2 Linsanity, some want more involvement with Lin in the offense, others run a range of seeing Lin in many roles in different teams and how he's grown and chart his overall growth and what he needs to take the next step in his overall game. (I'm more of the 2nd and a lot of the last).

[RealHusky]

http://sportige.com/charlotte-hornets-jeremy-lin-kemba-walker-nicolas-batum-michael-kidd-gilchrist-steve-clifford-no-room-91925/

[Braggins]

I love how so many people seem to know exactly what Lin wants and what he thinks he deserves. I doubt he'll stay here but it will probably come more down to money and not him preferring not to play here. There is a good chance we won't be able to offer him the kind of money he will be worth, so if another team offers him more money and a starting role then he has to strongly considerate it. Like I said, its hard to really know what he is thinking, but I wouldn't be surprised if he would be interested in resigning here to play 25mpg if we end up with the cap space to offer him what he is worth. The odds increase if we make it to the post season, especially if we somehow won a series.

[TinmanZBoy]

http://sportige.com/charlotte-hornets-jeremy-lin-kemba-walker-nicolas-batum-michael-kidd-gilchrist-steve-clifford-no-room-91925/

if you seriously want to learn more about NBA's X and Os along the journey of Lin, and see how lin evolves as a basketball player, do not read stuff from that guy, his stuff is garbage...

[TinmanZBoy]

Oh, I should add that I agree with Fatlever that this season is great with Lin, for him to play well in a system different from MDA, and also different from Rockets Morey ball. I actually see a lot similar plays like what he used to played in Lakers, he definitely improved to play in a smaller space, and he secure the ball way better in smaller space now than he was a year ago. added mid range game, plus his defense definitely improve a lot.

if you want to understand Clifford's offense, you have to know his coaching philosophy. He is a defense first coach, he wants the team to secure the defensive rebounds, less turnovers so as to limit opponents' possessions and set his defensive schemes in half court. For this reason, you will never see his team play at a fanatic pace like the style lin played in Rockets 12-13. This season actually the hornets has evolved a little bit, catering to their talents, they've upped their tempo a little, they used to be ranked bottom 5 in pace the last two seasons. I was actually quite surprised that lin chose hornets in the summer for this reason since Lin likes to play in a fast pace system. However, i am glad to see the change in Hornets. I think Clifford is evolving as a coach too...
Any morden offense more or less is derived from MDA's pace and space philosophy, so they are all new school. I bet MDA as a coach will evolve too, he is too smart a coach to not evolve. Most of the times the hornets are playing 4 out 1 in offense to create more space for their guards to operate, attack the rim and create open threes, they have multiple shooters to stretch the floor. These are all MDA concepts. Hornets offense also has a lot motion offense elements, they move the ball well, run multiple PnRs, off ball moves to create cutting opportunities... The offense in general is pretty efficient, when they shoot the three well, it is very good... however, its downfall is very predictable, when the hornets are facing a good defense, they could have a hard time to create good shots... to solve this, it leads to another element of MDA offense, it is "pace"... offensive sets could be predictable, but if given a little pace it will open up everything, make plays much easier to execute and the defense harder to counter... the hornets offense is not there yet... it is only the first year of this group put together, need time to develop the chemistry, i believe given another year, this offense could be executed quicker and better, also they need to shoot better or simply better shooters.....

The hornets' offense is quite different from lakers' offense. Byron's offense has two bigs on each elbow to operate, he does emphasis off ball movements, ball movements though, however, he does not have good passing bigs to operate, actually Spencer is perfect for his system...and the sets he runs lack of counters, basically one defensive stop, the set is over, their players will settle to shoot a contested long two or off screen long two...Byron does run some top PnRs for Clarkson though....

There is no Morey ball, there is only MDA ball, Morey ball is only a statistical proof of MDA ball.... I think a lot of lin fans hate coach McHale for wrong reasons. The offense McHale run for Lin/harden/Parson is actually the best system for lin's skillset, high octane, PnR, open floor offense. The issue was the ball was in harden's hands most of the time, nonetheless, lin was pretty solid in Houston. Coach McHale might not trust lin at times, he did play lin a lot, lin was one of his main guys...

[Tracymcgoaty]

I love how so many people seem to know exactly what Lin wants and what he thinks he deserves. I doubt he'll stay here but it will probably come more down to money and not him preferring not to play here. There is a good chance we won't be able to offer him the kind of money he will be worth, so if another team offers him more money and a starting role then he has to strongly considerate it. Like I said, its hard to really know what he is thinking, but I wouldn't be surprised if he would be interested in resigning here to play 25mpg if we end up with the cap space to offer him what he is worth. The odds increase if we make it to the post season, especially if we somehow won a series.

All i know is that he said he wants to be a starter. But he wont be able to get it here. If he can get 25mpg on this team it would be great. With him running the second unit and letting batum and kemba rest would also be great.

[phillycheese]

[quote="Vae Victus"]Eremy Lin is simply unwatchable on offense when he shoots the ball in a non driving situation. I mean my god its an automatic miss for a coupla weeks now.[/gimme a break. You missed the three against Wash?

[Teddyb]

Eremy Lin is simply unwatchable on offense when he shoots the ball in a non driving situation. I mean my god its an automatic miss for a coupla weeks now.[/gimme a break. You missed the three against Wash?

I simply don't believe Lin is consistent enough to be a starter on a quality team in the NBA. When he's on he's GREAT.....its jus not there enough

[Teddyb]

Eremy Lin is simply unwatchable on offense when he shoots the ball in a non driving situation. I mean my god its an automatic miss for a coupla weeks now.[/gimme a break. You missed the three against Wash?

I simply don't believe Lin is consistent enough to be a starter on a quality team in the NBA. When he's on he's GREAT.....its jus not there enough

Oh by the way he didn't miss the other night when the game was on the line....

[bws94]

The team needs Lin to play like Lin. He knows that. He said he played terrible in the last 3 games and didn't bring the proper energy.

When Lin doesn't get to the line he isn't playing a Lin game. He settled for a lot of jumpers that didn't fall and didn't take advantage of weak defenders to drive on. He and Batum have to figure out how to get the 2nd team organized as Batum seems to be playing major minutes with them. Frank and Lamb have to get back going too.

Some games Hornets can win with so-so or poor bench play. A lot of games they can't. Lin is the leader of the bench and he needs to play well. He's also a big contributing player that plays closing minutes, whether on the closing squad or put into the game to make big plays. So, hopefully he gets right soon. Was less than a week ago he started for Kemba, had 26 points and 8 assists and made big clutch plays in the closing minutes. The guy can play. All the guys get a lot of rest after Wednesday and hopefully they come back refreshed and ready to put the team in the playoffs.

[fatlever]

http://sportige.com/charlotte-hornets-jeremy-lin-kemba-walker-nicolas-batum-michael-kidd-gilchrist-steve-clifford-no-room-91925/

That is just awful. Why even post that garbage?

[fatlever]

The Hornets have 19 different lineups this year that have logged 30 minutes together. All but 5 of those lineups have a positive net rating.

Batum and Lin feature on 5 of the 14 lineups with a positive rating and 0 of the 5 with a negative rating.

The #1 lineup so far this season in pure offensive rating (for lineups with 30+ minutes) is Lin, Batum, Lamb, Zeller, Hawes. That lineup has an offensive rating of 127a and the 3rd best overall net rating of 20.3.

Clearly the stats show that Batum and Lin can function together in very productive lineups.

The lineup that everyone is upset about - Lin, Batum, Lamb, Frank, Hawes has an offensive rating of 86 for the season in 54 minutes (but amazingly still has a positive rating due to having a defensive rating of 85). That lineup has played 20 minutes together in the last 4 games, with an offensive rating of 61. Clearly the last 4 games are dragging down the Ortg. Prior to the last 4 games, this same lineup had a net rating of + 24.6 (99.4 O and 74.7 D) and was the best defensive lineup of any lineup that played more than 10 minutes together (they played 34 in this stretch)

I think we are dealing with a small sample size regarding the last few games where all of Lin, Lamb and Frank have shot poorly. There is no reason to think that lineup won't bounce back and produce much better offensive numbers, sooner than later. The shots were there in the last game, wide open shots for everyone, they were just being missed. Give it a few more games.

[PG13]

That's how I see it too and I get a lot of flack on Lin boards when I try to express the trends in the NBA and how Lin really fits in. What happened in MDA's offense with Lin running it was great then and for a limited time, but now, Lin is part of a more evolved system where multiple facilitators and motions will get things going. Lin is great at cutting and finishing now. We didn't see it much lately, but he can do that a lot once he gets his groove back.

There are fans that follow Lin that just need him back in that MDA style and with MDA to get the numbers he used to get. But I'm of the school of thought that is just limiting him and he's better off with lower stats, but a more complete player in these more evolved offensive systems. Lin's a team player anyway and doesn't seem to play to stat-pad much. Lin can still get good assists and point totals on some nights when he's on and I think Lin's touches should go up when on with Batum and Kemba. Sometimes I wonder if all 3 can have strong games together anymore.

Also noticed in tonight's game the ball going to the weak side more. That's good to see.

I hope you stop complaining about Lin fans from other boards here, you don't need to trying to paint other Lin fans as crazy fans to show how even headed you are.

Your post show it enough, and I think your discussion goes very well by itself, without you trying to call out other Lin fans.

Much appreciated if you could stop doing that. Thanks.

+1,000,000. Thank you!

I don't understand what happened to Lin's 3P%. He tweaked his shooting form supposedly to improve from his 36.9% last season. He was shooting very well in the pre-season so it seemed like whatever he did was working. Now he's sitting at 31.8%, the worst since his rookie season. If it takes time to adjust to his new form, why was he shooting so well in the pre-season?

[TinmanZBoy]

The Hornets have 19 different lineups this year that have logged 30 minutes together. All but 5 of those lineups have a positive net rating.

Batum and Lin feature on 5 of the 14 lineups with a positive rating and 0 of the 5 with a negative rating.

The #1 lineup so far this season in pure offensive rating (for lineups with 30+ minutes) is Lin, Batum, Lamb, Zeller, Hawes. That lineup has an offensive rating of 127a and the 3rd best overall net rating of 20.3.

Clearly the stats show that Batum and Lin can function together in very productive lineups.

The lineup that everyone is upset about - Lin, Batum, Lamb, Frank, Hawes has an offensive rating of 86 for the season in 54 minutes (but amazingly still has a positive rating due to having a defensive rating of 85). That lineup has played 20 minutes together in the last 4 games, with an offensive rating of 61. Clearly the last 4 games are dragging down the Ortg. Prior to the last 4 games, this same lineup had a net rating of + 24.6 (99.4 O and 74.7 D) and was the best defensive lineup of any lineup that played more than 10 minutes together (they played 34 in this stretch)

I think we are dealing with a small sample size regarding the last few games where all of Lin, Lamb and Frank have shot poorly. There is no reason to think that lineup won't bounce back and produce much better offensive numbers, sooner than later. The shots were there in the last game, wide open shots for everyone, they were just being missed. Give it a few more games.

numbers don't lie…

[leeramundo]

That's how I see it too and I get a lot of flack on Lin boards when I try to express the trends in the NBA and how Lin really fits in. What happened in MDA's offense with Lin running it was great then and for a limited time, but now, Lin is part of a more evolved system where multiple facilitators and motions will get things going. Lin is great at cutting and finishing now. We didn't see it much lately, but he can do that a lot once he gets his groove back.

There are fans that follow Lin that just need him back in that MDA style and with MDA to get the numbers he used to get. But I'm of the school of thought that is just limiting him and he's better off with lower stats, but a more complete player in these more evolved offensive systems. Lin's a team player anyway and doesn't seem to play to stat-pad much. Lin can still get good assists and point totals on some nights when he's on and I think Lin's touches should go up when on with Batum and Kemba. Sometimes I wonder if all 3 can have strong games together anymore.

Also noticed in tonight's game the ball going to the weak side more. That's good to see.

I hope you stop complaining about Lin fans from other boards here, you don't need to trying to paint other Lin fans as crazy fans to show how even headed you are.

Your post show it enough, and I think your discussion goes very well by itself, without you trying to call out other Lin fans.

Much appreciated if you could stop doing that. Thanks.

+1,000,000. Thank you!

I don't understand what happened to Lin's 3P%. He tweaked his shooting form supposedly to improve from his 36.9% last season. He was shooting very well in the pre-season so it seemed like whatever he did was working. Now he's sitting at 31.8%, the worst since his rookie season. If it takes time to adjust to his new form, why was he shooting so well in the pre-season?

Possibly because he was coming off a summer of practicing it and it's still fresh? Maybe as he got wore down by the season he reverted back to his old form? Not sure. It could also just be that preseason was a small sample size.

[TinmanZBoy]

I don't understand what happened to Lin's 3P%. He tweaked his shooting form supposedly to improve from his 36.9% last season. He was shooting very well in the pre-season so it seemed like whatever he did was working. Now he's sitting at 31.8%, the worst since his rookie season. If it takes time to adjust to his new form, why was he shooting so well in the pre-season?

his shooting woes baffles me too….
here is from Zach lowe's article about the improvement of marvin

Marvin Williams, F, Charlotte Hornets (captain): When Pat Delaney, a Hornets assistant, walked into the team's practice gym on Sunday after a grueling back-to-back, he was surprised to see Williams dripping with sweat. Williams explained he had run on the treadmill, and drained 100 free throws.

"If there's one negative about Marvin," said Hornets head coach Steve Clifford, "it's that you have to tell him, 'Don't do anything tomorrow. Just rest.' That is literally the worst thing I can say about him."

Williams improvised when Charlotte transformed him into a stretch power forward last season, but when it was over, he vowed to become more dynamic in that role -- to do more than drop wide-open 3-pointers. He and Delaney spent the summer speeding up Williams' shot, and once that was done, honing a floater Williams could use after pump-faking defenders who would rush to close out on him.

They had a motto: "Everything at game speed." No jogs or walk-throughs. They would go all out on every rep, until Williams was exhausted. It was the only way to master a tricky in-between shot. Williams was game for all of it. He always is. Every team that has Williams ends up loving him.

I guess that's probably the key… Stephen did the same thing in his training, his teammates have seen all kinds of crazy shots he made in practices…
Lin's shooting has not translated in game situations or more pressured situations… he is just not there yet, he seriously needs to think about a different shooting coach, a different voice… shooting is something that he should constantly improve

[bws94]

Who was Kemba's shooting coach? Kemba said he worked hard during the summer to get his shooting better and he certainly has done that. Is he someone in the Hornets organization.

Sorry for comments on Lin fans elsewhere, I don't need to bring that here. I think it's clear on this board the range of Lin fans and the folks here are fine. There are excellent posters here that discuss Lin. The moderators deal well with those that are extreme for any group of fans of one player.

I like the idea of trying to do things under pressure to simulate game conditions in practice and drills. Marvin had a short funk but for the most part, MW's shot has been pretty reliable. I think Lin does well in the clutch because he just reacts and uses his will, in games situations where crucial shots aren't needed maybe he thinks?

The crazy thing is remember pre-season? Lin shot the ball so well. It looked like we were headed for Lin mixing up his mid-range and sometimes 3 pt. shooting with his finishing at the rim to score and pretty much as soon as the season started, he lost his shot. He's shot well occasionally in some games, or well enough. But he really hasn't had a 9-14 or so game where 6 of those are 3s and he's lighting it up from the perimeter.

[fatlever]

Didn't Lin train this summer with washed up streetballer "The Professor" to help him with his handles? Yeah, how's that working out? Maybe Lin needs to work with better trainers. LOL. Just kidding fellas. Well, sorta, maybe.. I mean, Professor? Seriously? Was Hot Sauce busy?

[13th Man]

I hope you stop complaining about Lin fans from other boards here, you don't need to trying to paint other Lin fans as crazy fans to show how even headed you are.

Your post show it enough, and I think your discussion goes very well by itself, without you trying to call out other Lin fans.

Much appreciated if you could stop doing that. Thanks.

+1,000,000. Thank you!

I don't understand what happened to Lin's 3P%. He tweaked his shooting form supposedly to improve from his 36.9% last season. He was shooting very well in the pre-season so it seemed like whatever he did was working. Now he's sitting at 31.8%, the worst since his rookie season. If it takes time to adjust to his new form, why was he shooting so well in the pre-season?

Possibly because he was coming off a summer of practicing it and it's still fresh? Maybe as he got wore down by the season he reverted back to his old form? Not sure. It could also just be that preseason was a small sample size.

Keep in mind that preseason is a lot more relaxed, just a notch above D-league in terms of pressure. Lin has always fared well in preseason I remember his 2nd season with the Rockets he was just toying with everyone and playing with a lot of confidence. But yeah, I do think that it could also be due to him reverting back to old bad habits as his shots started look more like his shots of old.

I'm going to put on my shooting coach hat here, since I was a deadly shooter in my days (over 90% FT and 50% 3pt%) in HS and college IMO, Lin needs to improve his shooting form; his release and his trajectory. Good shooters have tightly controlled realeases (Nash, C.Mullin, even Harden), Lin's release is too feathery which results in distance problems, why we see many shots being way off the mark either too short or too long. Only a few guys can pull off soft releases with great accuracy like Curry and Bird but Lin obviously does not have the same touch. Too much arc also presents a longer distance the ball has to travel which brings down the accuracy as well. Lin is not a good shooter period due to his flawed shooting mechanics imo. Another factor is his mentality and his fluctuating confidence level. Sometimes he tries too hard to make an impact and when the shots don't fall, he'd fall into a mental rut. He's not like Kemba where his inner confidence is always there.

Personally I think he's been trying too hard after the Cleveland game to make an impact, when both Nic and Kemba are playing well. On this team, he is a role player and his role is to cover for those guys when they're not there or don't have it. So far he's done a pretty good job of that imo. I think he runs into difficulty when he tries to expand outside of that or is confused on what his role is on the team.

[13th Man]

As others have mentioned, I think it would be good for him to get some more pg time with the 2nd unit to get that unit back to BF1 status as we know they're capable of being.

I like Clifford and everything but one of his flaws imo is that he has a "what have you done for me lately" philosophy of coaching. This works well during a game where he would keep the hot unit in but not sure it's the best strategy to reward/punish players after each game performance. After the Cleveland game, he gave Lin the reigns to run the 2nd unit early in relief of Kemba but as we know they fell flat and soon after that he's started relying more on Batum as he lost some faith in Lin. The same thing happened with Daniels when he had that monster game, Clifford thrusted him into the next game right away with major minutes and he fell flat as well the he put Daniels back at the end of the bench. I think with this coaching philosophy, there is way too to much change going on, hence why we've seen so many experiemental lineups without stability. Some players need the comfort in having a consistent role on the team.