Trade/waiving question

[Tfence92]

Example: Let's say you're trading multiple players, and due to cap reasons the trade is broken down into two separate trades, one simultaneous and one non-simultaneous.

Would you be able to cut a player received in the first trade and then execute the second trade under the assumption that said player is no longer counted against your roster limit?

Or is it technically considered one trade and thus you would need roster space for everyone from the start?



If you need a real life example to help understand my question, let me know and I'll make something up.

[DBoys]

"Or is it technically considered one trade and thus you would need roster space for everyone from the start?"

Short answer to this ^ question is "Yes."

Longer explanatory reply is ...
"1 A trade is a trade (there is really no such thing as a sub-trade). It's submitted to the league as one entity.
2 You have to make room on your roster for the incoming players you will get, before submitting the trade to the league.
...For example, it's mid-season and you have a full 15-man roster. You want to trade away 1 high-salaried player for 3 smaller ones. In order to submit the trade, you must first waive two players. (Or, you could find a prior trade or 2 sending a player or 2 away and getting none back.) In any event, once you have the room, you can submit the 1-for-3.
...Obviously a team would preferably roll the prior roster-clearing trades into the same trade, so that outgoing and incoming are balanced.
3 Resulting reality is, you rarely see highly lopsided trades in numbers of players in and out, during the regular season, for that very reason. Rosters are full and owners don't like to waive guaranteed contracts and waste money.
4 You cannot take care of the excess afterwards, such as by doing that 1-for-3 and then waiving 2 of those incoming players as you get them. There has to already be room on your roster, and they have to be added, before you can waive them. So if you are getting some extra players you don't want, you are doubly screwed - you have to first waive some players and pay them in full, then you have to fill your roster room with incoming players you don't want.

[Tfence92]

What if you can make the deals work separately?

Quick example

Say both teams are at 15 players.

First trade: Team A trades Lebron to team B for a 2nd round pick, and his salary is absorbed into a TPE.

(Team B cuts Lebron?)

Second trade: Kevin Love is traded from team A to team B for Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant.

Both trades can stand alone but it's obviously considered Lebron and Love for Westbrook and Durant.

Allowed or no?

Edit: I have been messing around with the trade machine for a deal for my bucks, havent quite gotten one I like nailed down, but I'll throw something together if you want a better example lol.

[DBoys]

"What if you can make the deals work separately?"

Didn't you just ask and didn't I just answer that very question? Again, a team cannot get a trade approved unless it meets the various limits of the rules, as submitted. Clearly the example you offered, with Team B who has 15 players trying to take Lebron as the 16th, does NOT "work separately" since they have a full roster and the rules won't let them add more players to a full roster.

But if the teams submit "Lebron and Love" FOR "Durant and Westbrook" then the 2-for-2 does not violate roster limits for either team.

[Tfence92]

My bad, I messed up my example, I'm sorry.

Let me try this one last time.

Team A has 15 players
Team B had 14 players

Team A trades Lebron to team B for a plethora of draft picks, Team B had a roster spot and can financially afford to take Lebron into a TPE they have.

(Team B cuts Lebron?)

Team A then trades Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving to Team B for Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook.

The second trade can only occur if lebron is cut, as otherwise Team would have 16 players.

Both trades work by themselves, but is it still considered to be one trade and thus not allowed?

I guess my question is more to the point if it would be considered multiple trades or one trade? I don't think I've ever seen anything get broken down into two trades, so either it's not allowed or its just never been done?

Sorry for the confusion before, hopefully this is my last question.

[DBoys]

A trade is what it is. If they submit Trade A to the league to be approved, then when it is approved it has become a trade. And then if they later submit Trade B to the league to be approved, then when it is approved it has become a 2nd trade. But if they submit all of those moving pieces to the league as one trade, then it's all one trade if/when approved.

[Tfence92]

Ok then I guess one final question.

How long does it take for a trade to go thru?

As I said before I've never seen anything like what I'm describing, but it could certainly be beneficial in some scenarios.

[Smitty731]

Ok then I guess one final question.

How long does it take for a trade to go thru?

As I said before I've never seen anything like what I'm describing, but it could certainly be beneficial in some scenarios.

In most cases, as soon as the teams agree to a trade they schedule a Trade Call with the league. It usually happens within a few hours. On Deadline day or Draft day, it could be held up for a bit due to volume.

Once the League approves, how quickly the trade actually goes through is dependent on the particulars of the deal. If it involves physicals and the like, it could take a day or more. If both sides are willing to waive those requirements, a trade can be official within a couple of hours of the teams agreeing to it.

I forget which podcast it was and which GM it was, but fairly recently a GM was on a podcast and actually walked through the process. It was a good listen. Bobby Marks, former Nets Asst GM, has been on the new Vertical Podcast with Woj and he's talked through some of these processes as well. He's also an amazing follow on Twitter if you have questions on the technical process of roster moves. He covers a lot of things on there.

[Tfence92]

Ok thanks!

I'm done asking questions for now!

[DBoys]

TF I was reading back through this thread and it (perhaps) just dawned on me what you are trying to work through that has you asking what I consider to be a bizarre set of questions. My apologies for not recognizing it earlier.

Unless I am mistaken, it appears to me that you are trying to figure out how to best use a NS TPE, and doing due diligence to steer clear of "combining it" with other assets in a trade. It's for that reason that you are doing all this convoluted breaking down of trades into multiple smaller trades where roster limits may get in the way. Am I right?

If so ...

it should be noted you can have a single trade that has NS and S elements in it in the very same trade. As long as nothing is combined with the NS TPE in taking back a player, it's very usable in trade matching in a multi-player trade alongside (but not combined with) S TPE's.

[Tfence92]

TF I was reading back through this thread and it (perhaps) just dawned on me what you are trying to work through that has you asking what I consider to be a bizarre set of questions. My apologies for not recognizing it earlier.

Unless I am mistaken, it appears to me that you are trying to figure out how to best use a NS TPE, and doing due diligence to steer clear of "combining it" with other assets in a trade. It's for that reason that you are doing all this convoluted breaking down of trades into multiple smaller trades where roster limits may get in the way. Am I right?

If so ...

it should be noted you can have a single trade that has NS and S elements in it in the very same trade. As long as nothing is combined with the NS TPE in taking back a player, it's very usable in trade matching in a multi-player trade alongside (but not combined with) S TPE's.

Yes and no.

I already knew about salary aggregation with TPEs, and I think I know how they work.

For example, this is the trade that was in my head the entire time tho I didn't have to worry about having roster issues.
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1424304

I was curious since you are arguably breaking one trade into two, if you could make a move inbetween to facilitate another roster spot?
Basically in my example, I was wondering if you could trade Andersen for TPE and then cut Andersen before executing the remainder of the trade so the bucks could get another player back as well.

[DBoys]

Ah, ok. Well, there is no sequence within a trade, as whatever trade is submitted is all executed as one single transaction that all occurs at the same moment, so there's no way to do something "in between" a singular event. If you want to do something "in between" then you have to have more than one event.

In addition, I really don't see how you're actually problem solving in this exercise anyhow. From what I can see, the examples of splitting a single trade into multiple ones either still busts the roster limits or invents a roster limit problem (from splitting) that never existed in the first place.

[Tfence92]

Ah, ok. Well, there is no sequence within a trade, as whatever trade is submitted is all executed as one single transaction that all occurs at the same moment, so there's no way to do something "in between" a singular event. If you want to do something "in between" then you have to have more than one event.

In addition, I really don't see how you're actually problem solving in this exercise anyhow. From what I can see, the examples of splitting a single trade into multiple ones either still busts the roster limits or invents a roster limit problem (from splitting) that never existed in the first place.

You're maximizing the value of the trade by receiving a TPE imo.
Also, using my example, say we were allowed to cut Andersen in between the moving parts, we could then take on another young guy like Stokes.

[DBoys]

4 things:
1 As for the roster limits, we're still back to the same original question and repeating my same simple original answer - ie, you have to make room on your roster for the incoming players you will get, before submitting a trade to the league.
2 In all the examples you offered, a roster-busting issue wasn't solved by breaking a trade down into series of trades. It either made it worse, or fixed a "roster-limit problem" that actually never existed. So the "solution" wasn't helping fix anything.
3 In theory, can you trade for more and more players by simply waiving each set of incoming players after they have been acquired, thereby reusing the same open roster space? Sure, but that's not a real-life solution as no team is on such a quest to get players and then be able to waive them.
4 As for the TPEs, you are envisioning greener grass by making things more complex, and it isn't greener over that fence. TPE's don't get bigger and more usable by doing a whole series of small trades that have them created in one trade and used in the next, but instead the leftover NS TPE can potentially be larger if it's all a bigger unified trade. Again, the "solution" isn't helping fix anything.

PS - This might be a fruitful discussion if you supplied an actual example that did what you theorize - ie, one in which the resulting NS TPE ended up bigger, and roster-space issues were resolved. Make up salaries and use player X Y and Z so you aren't limited, and put it on paper. I encourage that not because I think there is an as-yet undiscussed trade where such benefits would derive, but rather because I think in the search for an example you might see that you're either not solving anything, inventing a solution that makes things worse, or theorizing a trade that cannot be invented.

[Tfence92]

My bad on the last post, I didn't mean to make it so quisitive.

I understood everything you were saying and still do, I just reiterated what I was attempting to do originally because you sounded confused as to what I was trying to do at the beginning.

[ranger001]

Example: Let's say you're trading multiple players, and due to cap reasons the trade is broken down into two separate trades, one simultaneous and one non-simultaneous.

Would you be able to cut a player received in the first trade and then execute the second trade under the assumption that said player is no longer counted against your roster limit?

Or is it technically considered one trade and thus you would need roster space for everyone from the start?

Its only considered one trade if its submitted as one trade. Lets say you have a team that has a roster spot available and also a TPE. That team could certainly make a 2 for 1 trade then cut 1 of the 2 players traded for and free up a roster spot. The team could then receive a player using their TPE in a second trade.

The team might announce it as a single trade but it would be submitted to the league office as two separate trades.

[DBoys]

Example: Let's say you're trading multiple players, and due to cap reasons the trade is broken down into two separate trades, one simultaneous and one non-simultaneous.

Would you be able to cut a player received in the first trade and then execute the second trade under the assumption that said player is no longer counted against your roster limit?

Or is it technically considered one trade and thus you would need roster space for everyone from the start?

Its only considered one trade if its submitted as one trade. Lets say you have a team that has a roster spot available and also a TPE. That team could certainly make a 2 for 1 trade then cut 1 of the 2 players traded for and free up a roster spot. The team could then receive a player using their TPE in a second trade.

The team might announce it as a single trade but it would be submitted to the league office as two separate trades.

You are correct in general, but gotta note that in my experience an NBA team will announce a trade and its components very exactly. So the idea that it would mingle two trades together in an announcement isn't something I see as likely, and might even be contrary to league policy.

ESPN or your local TV guy might toss it all into one stew, however. But gotta say I've never seen a team do that, and I have seen a boatload of trade memos released over the years.

[ranger001]

Yes I was meaning that the news would say something like Team A trades Players H and I for Players J and K from Team B when its really two separate trades. Where do you read trade memos from teams? I've often wondered at the details of draft picks in trades via the news and an accurate trade memo would be nice to read.

[Smitty731]

Yes I was meaning that the news would say something like Team A trades Players H and I for Players J and K from Team B when its really two separate trades. Where do you read trade memos from teams? I've often wondered at the details of draft picks in trades via the news and an accurate trade memo would be nice to read.

Most teams have a PR portion of their website and you can get all sorts of official memos there. The challenge with those when it comes to picks, is that it will still say something along the lines of "a protected second round pick" without the details of the protections being listed. In my experience, tracking down pick protections can sometimes be a bear of a task. Especially if they extend multiple years.

[DBoys]

Yes I was meaning that the news would say something like Team A trades Players H and I for Players J and K from Team B when its really two separate trades. Where do you read trade memos from teams? I've often wondered at the details of draft picks in trades via the news and an accurate trade memo would be nice to read.

I have contacts with a specific team that send all of theirs to me by email.