Vucevic plays no defense...

[ezzzp]

Because there is actual chatter about Whiteside being available in trades.

Spoiler:

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14733765/5-5-experts-trade-deadline-eastern-conference-nba

Pelton: Miami Heat. I'd look to cash in on Hassan Whiteside's value before he hits free agency this summer. Because the Heat won't have full Bird rights, Whiteside's next contract would have to come out of their cap space.

I'd try to flip Whiteside for a center on a rookie contract who will count less against the cap next summer

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14725855/miami-heat-top-trade-targets-assets-nba

Here's one from Kevin Pelton of ESPN Insider, a three-way trade. The Heat would send Whiteside, McRoberts, Andersen and Udonis Haslem to Portland, the Blazers would send Mason Plumlee and Cliff Alexander to Chicago, and the Bulls would send Gasol to Miami.

deal of Whiteside and Deng for Anderson was floated by ESPN's Tom Haberstroh for good reason: it provides an immediate boost for the sagging Miami offense, and puts the onus to re-sign Whiteside on the Pelicans.

The Lakers get Whiteside, Deng and filler in advance of throwing max money at the Miami center in a few months. The Heat get a replacement rim-protector for 15 to 20 minutes per game and an explosive bench scorer in Williams who fits with both Wade and Dragic.

For Miami, a trade with Boston would be about accepting a talent deficit in hopes of improved chemistry in the form of shooting and even better defense. The Heat could deal Whiteside, Deng and a couple of expiring deals for this Celtics trio. For Boston, it's all about getting first crack at Whiteside. Even so, this might be a tough sell.

...that is meaningless. It is about where he signs this summer. Trading for him gets you nothing, other than losing valuable players.

There is no Bird Rights advantage and no $ incentive

The only difference is that he goes from hanging out in South Beach and the comfort of his home and surrounded by his friends and playing on a certain playoff bound team ... to hanging out in Downtown Orlando from a suitcase in a hotel alone and playing with a group of strangers on a team that might squeak into the post season at best.

[Skin]

Its unclear to me what makes you think that is not going to happen. Ag just turned 20 last Fall. He is 2 inches taller than Draymond Green. Sure, he is a lot lighter but he has a lot of room to fill out. Especially in light of how the league is moving it seems to me he will certainly develop into a 4 who can rim protect. I don't think he'll be what Nerlens Noel will eventually be (as a rim protector) but I think he has much greater value than simply a wing protector. I think he will become our Draymond.

Draymond is a very unique player. He's a cinder block anchored by a heavy base and has exceptionally long arms that are filled out. He's 2 inches smaller than AG, yet his wingspan is 7'1 where Gordon's wingspan is 6'11.

They are different kinds of players. If you want to say Gordon is a small ball PF, I have no problems with that. But if you want to label all small ball PFs the same, I don't agree with that. Green is also paired with a good defensive presence in Bogut and surrounded by elite shooters.

That said, Gordon isn't our problem. He and Mario are the closest things we have to a solution.

[Skin]

Because there is actual chatter about Whiteside being available in trades.

Spoiler:

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14733765/5-5-experts-trade-deadline-eastern-conference-nba

Pelton: Miami Heat. I'd look to cash in on Hassan Whiteside's value before he hits free agency this summer. Because the Heat won't have full Bird rights, Whiteside's next contract would have to come out of their cap space.

I'd try to flip Whiteside for a center on a rookie contract who will count less against the cap next summer

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14725855/miami-heat-top-trade-targets-assets-nba

Here's one from Kevin Pelton of ESPN Insider, a three-way trade. The Heat would send Whiteside, McRoberts, Andersen and Udonis Haslem to Portland, the Blazers would send Mason Plumlee and Cliff Alexander to Chicago, and the Bulls would send Gasol to Miami.

deal of Whiteside and Deng for Anderson was floated by ESPN's Tom Haberstroh for good reason: it provides an immediate boost for the sagging Miami offense, and puts the onus to re-sign Whiteside on the Pelicans.

The Lakers get Whiteside, Deng and filler in advance of throwing max money at the Miami center in a few months. The Heat get a replacement rim-protector for 15 to 20 minutes per game and an explosive bench scorer in Williams who fits with both Wade and Dragic.

For Miami, a trade with Boston would be about accepting a talent deficit in hopes of improved chemistry in the form of shooting and even better defense. The Heat could deal Whiteside, Deng and a couple of expiring deals for this Celtics trio. For Boston, it's all about getting first crack at Whiteside. Even so, this might be a tough sell.

...that is meaningless. It is about where he signs this summer. Trading for him gets you nothing, other than losing valuable players.

There is no Bird Rights advantage and no $ incentive

The only difference is that he goes from hanging out in South Beach and the comfort of his home and surrounded by his friends and playing on a certain playoff bound team ... to hanging out in Downtown Orlando from a suitcase in a hotel alone and playing with a group of strangers on a team that might squeak into the post season at best.

Well if we're allowing our imaginations to assume like that...

I like the imagination that we make a strong second half push, get to the playoffs and establish a reputation that we are one of the best young up and coming teams in the league, and by doing so, make a convincing impression to Whiteside that if he stays he can be a main part of an up and coming team that has a long window of opportunity to be successful. I'd like to imagine that the guys welcome him with open arms, treat him like a brother, lean on him like a star, and makes his experience here amazing.

I would be fine giving up expendable assets for that opportunity.

Without even trying, yeah... we probably wouldn't even get a serious look in FA.

[EAS Law]

...appears to be an obsolete narrative. I watched him play very tough, very conscientious defense on Horford tonight and give him all sorts of trouble, particularly late in crunch time. I also saw him contest guys attacking the bucket and knew how to do it without fouling. He doesn't like going outside, but then what center does, and he's not a quick leaper which means he won't ever be a great shot-blocker but I think this guy is finally becoming serviceable. Congrats Magic fans, I think your center is for real.

talk to me when he does this 3 games in a row. and Horford was still 12-18 for 27 pts. 12 above his season avg

And when Payton guards Kemba Walker he scores 40. But this board still calls him a good defender.

It's apparently Vuc's fault for letting Kemba score at the rim after he gets past the perimeter. I'd venture to say that this is probably the issue with most of Vuc's perceived defensive woes. Im not hating on our guards too much, but when you think about it, Vuc has to worry about his man and everyone attacking the hoop.

I don't recall many games where Vuc's man one on one tore him up.

[OrlChamps2030]

yeah those charts just make me want Whiteside even more.

The thought of Whiteside playing in a Skiles defense is enticing. He is like Larry Sanders on steroids.

Why set the dream fantasy bar so low, if you're going to fantasize why not Durant, heck Lebron is a free agent as well...

And why not Towns or Davis if one is going to dream about centers.

You guys are just being stubborn now..

[ezzzp]

Because there is actual chatter about Whiteside being available in trades.

Spoiler:

http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14733765/5-5-experts-trade-deadline-eastern-conference-nba



http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14725855/miami-heat-top-trade-targets-assets-nba

...that is meaningless. It is about where he signs this summer. Trading for him gets you nothing, other than losing valuable players.

There is no Bird Rights advantage and no $ incentive

The only difference is that he goes from hanging out in South Beach and the comfort of his home and surrounded by his friends and playing on a certain playoff bound team ... to hanging out in Downtown Orlando from a suitcase in a hotel alone and playing with a group of strangers on a team that might squeak into the post season at best.

Well if we're allowing our imaginations to assume like that...

I like the imagination that we make a strong second half push, get to the playoffs and establish a reputation that we are one of the best young up and coming teams in the league, and by doing so, make a convincing impression to Whiteside that if he stays he can be a main part of an up and coming team that has a long window of opportunity to be successful. I'd like to imagine that the guys welcome him with open arms, treat him like a brother, lean on him like a star, and makes his experience here amazing.

I would be fine giving up expendable assets for that opportunity.

Without even trying, yeah... we probably wouldn't even get a serious look in FA.

expendable assets? lol lk who ? napier for whiteside?

You think miami wants expendable assets? + he makes under $1m

[Skin]

...that is meaningless. It is about where he signs this summer. Trading for him gets you nothing, other than losing valuable players.

There is no Bird Rights advantage and no $ incentive

The only difference is that he goes from hanging out in South Beach and the comfort of his home and surrounded by his friends and playing on a certain playoff bound team ... to hanging out in Downtown Orlando from a suitcase in a hotel alone and playing with a group of strangers on a team that might squeak into the post season at best.

Well if we're allowing our imaginations to assume like that...

I like the imagination that we make a strong second half push, get to the playoffs and establish a reputation that we are one of the best young up and coming teams in the league, and by doing so, make a convincing impression to Whiteside that if he stays he can be a main part of an up and coming team that has a long window of opportunity to be successful. I'd like to imagine that the guys welcome him with open arms, treat him like a brother, lean on him like a star, and makes his experience here amazing.

I would be fine giving up expendable assets for that opportunity.

Without even trying, yeah... we probably wouldn't even get a serious look in FA.

expendable assets? lol lk who ? napier for whiteside?

You think miami wants expendable assets? + he makes under $1m

We can offer Fournier, Harris, Frye, Smith, Watson, Dedmon, Nicholson, LAL 1st, cap relief...

[ezzzp]

expendable assets? lol lk who ? napier for whiteside?

You think miami wants expendable assets? + he makes under $1m

We can offer Fournier, Harris, Frye, Smith, Watson, Dedmon, Nicholson, LAL 1st, cap relief...

so glad you are not the Magic GM...give up two core assets for a player that won't even unpack his bags and have his plane reservations out of Orlando made weeks before the season ends...and don't say RH blah blah blah, if there was anything there he and his agent would be in touch

cap relief? for who? cmon man

[Skin]

expendable assets? lol lk who ? napier for whiteside?

You think miami wants expendable assets? + he makes under $1m

We can offer Fournier, Harris, Frye, Smith, Watson, Dedmon, Nicholson, LAL 1st, cap relief...

so glad you are not the Magic GM...give up two core assets for a player that won't even unpack his bags and have his plane reservations out of Orlando made weeks before the season ends...and don't say RH blah blah blah, if there was anything there he and his agent would be in touch

cap relief? for who? cmon man

Where did I say I would give up 2 or more of those assets for him? You asked what our expendable assets were.

Some things are worth the risk. If you were the GM, you would be Otis Smith, "I like this team."

Your only solution is for our mess is for us to wait 3 years when our young guys are in their prime and don't play them until they have proved it in practice. Screw that.

[ezzzp]

We can offer Fournier, Harris, Frye, Smith, Watson, Dedmon, Nicholson, LAL 1st, cap relief...

so glad you are not the Magic GM...give up two core assets for a player that won't even unpack his bags and have his plane reservations out of Orlando made weeks before the season ends...and don't say RH blah blah blah, if there was anything there he and his agent would be in touch

cap relief? for who? cmon man

Where did I say I would give up 2 or more of those assets for him? You asked what our expendable assets were.

Some things are worth the risk. If you were the GM, you would be Otis Smith, "I like this team."

Your only solution is for our mess is for us to wait 3 years when our young guys are in their prime and don't play them until they have proved it in practice. Screw that.

there is an informed awareness; and then there is a Dumb and Dumber "you mean there's a chance" POV...

but this is going nowhere so lets end it...the trade deadline is very soon - we'll see soon enough.

[tiderulz]

talk to me when he does this 3 games in a row. and Horford was still 12-18 for 27 pts. 12 above his season avg

And when Payton guards Kemba Walker he scores 40. But this board still calls him a good defender.

It's apparently Vuc's fault for letting Kemba score at the rim after he gets past the perimeter. I'd venture to say that this is probably the issue with most of Vuc's perceived defensive woes. Im not hating on our guards too much, but when you think about it, Vuc has to worry about his man and everyone attacking the hoop.

I don't recall many games where Vuc's man one on one tore him up.

everyone wants to talk about Vuc's defense last night, but again, Horford scored 27, 12 above his average. There have been a lot of cases where opposing centers score above their average against Vuc.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Whiteside is either re-signing with Miami or on the first plane out to LA to scope out his new digs as soon as the season ends. Some of you are delusional if you think that guy re-signs in Orlando. The smarter, non-knee jerk/Vooch hate driven move would be to just wait until the offseason and try to sign him. What kind of idiot would move Vooch and his bargain contract for half a season of Whiteside?

[Blue_and_Whte]

And when Payton guards Kemba Walker he scores 40. But this board still calls him a good defender.

It's apparently Vuc's fault for letting Kemba score at the rim after he gets past the perimeter. I'd venture to say that this is probably the issue with most of Vuc's perceived defensive woes. Im not hating on our guards too much, but when you think about it, Vuc has to worry about his man and everyone attacking the hoop.

I don't recall many games where Vuc's man one on one tore him up.

everyone wants to talk about Vuc's defense last night, but again, Horford scored 27, 12 above his average. There have been a lot of cases where opposing centers score above their average against Vuc.

While going for 28pts 11rbs 6 asts on 68% shooting against a "better defender"
Horford: DRTG 110
Vooch: DRTG 107
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201602080ATL.html

And are we just ignoring Sundays game?

Horford: 11 pts 6 rbs 6 ast on 33% shooting DRTG 104
Vooch: 22pts 9rbs 3asts on 57% shooting DRTG 94

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201602070ORL.html

Not the whole story but lets not pretend Vooch was playing matador defense while Horford was locking it down.

[tiderulz]

It's apparently Vuc's fault for letting Kemba score at the rim after he gets past the perimeter. I'd venture to say that this is probably the issue with most of Vuc's perceived defensive woes. Im not hating on our guards too much, but when you think about it, Vuc has to worry about his man and everyone attacking the hoop.

I don't recall many games where Vuc's man one on one tore him up.

everyone wants to talk about Vuc's defense last night, but again, Horford scored 27, 12 above his average. There have been a lot of cases where opposing centers score above their average against Vuc.

While going for 28pts 11rbs 6 asts on 68% shooting against a "better defender"
Horford: DRTG 110
Vooch: DRTG 107
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201602080ATL.html

And are we just ignoring Sundays game?

Horford: 11 pts 6 rbs 6 ast on 33% shooting DRTG 104
Vooch: 22pts 9rbs 3asts on 57% shooting DRTG 94

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201602070ORL.html

Not the whole story but lets not pretend Vooch was playing matador defense while Horford was locking it down.

talking about Vuc's offense doesnt counter his defense. and im not saying he was playing matador defense, by all accounts he was tuned in. If he gave that effort every night, i would have no problem with him, similar to Payton.

[PennytoShaq]

What sucks is Ezili hurt his knee again. That guy was my summer target for depth at C.

[OrlDave]

everyone wants to talk about Vuc's defense last night, but again, Horford scored 27, 12 above his average. There have been a lot of cases where opposing centers score above their average against Vuc.

Here are the 12 scores by Al (after watching the mini-clips on NBA.com). Twice Al got Vuc to the elbow and was able to drive past him. 3 times he shot long shots (long 2 off a pnr, step back long two and a 3). 4 times he scored because Vuc left his man to protect the rim and no one rotated to Al. Although I do consider one of those plays to be Nik's fault. Twice he scored on other Magic players, once driving past Jason Smith (someone we consider a good defensive player) and once posting up Aaron and shooting over him. As a note, Al didn't post Vuc up even once make or miss. And Vuc lost Al in transition... he went to cover the 3 but AG had recovered and Al was left open under the basket.

So... you can blame him for the 2 drives, the getting lost in transition and the one time he left Al and probably shouldn't (it was a lob play where Dennis got past his man, but Jason had actually picked him up and Nik should have stayed home). Otherwise Al was playing well, hitting shots and his teammates were finding him after penetration.

[Blue_and_Whte]

everyone wants to talk about Vuc's defense last night, but again, Horford scored 27, 12 above his average. There have been a lot of cases where opposing centers score above their average against Vuc.

While going for 28pts 11rbs 6 asts on 68% shooting against a "better defender"
Horford: DRTG 110
Vooch: DRTG 107
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201602080ATL.html

And are we just ignoring Sundays game?

Horford: 11 pts 6 rbs 6 ast on 33% shooting DRTG 104
Vooch: 22pts 9rbs 3asts on 57% shooting DRTG 94

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201602070ORL.html

Not the whole story but lets not pretend Vooch was playing matador defense while Horford was locking it down.

talking about Vuc's offense doesnt counter his defense. and im not saying he was playing matador defense, by all accounts he was tuned in. If he gave that effort every night, i would have no problem with him, similar to Payton.

That doesn't make any sense, first you tried to use Horford's stats from Mondays game as the reason why we shouldn't be praising Nik's defense, and now you say he was tuned in?

I wasn't saying his offense counters his defense, I was pointing out that Nik himself had a great game and overall was the better player in both games. He played great against a supposed "better defender and center".

Consistency is the issue as you stated, same goes for Elfrid. But time and time again statistical facts are used to show that Nik isn't as a bad a defender everyone is trying to make him out to be and the typical response is ignore them (Not saying you are, just in general.)

[tiderulz]

While going for 28pts 11rbs 6 asts on 68% shooting against a "better defender"
Horford: DRTG 110
Vooch: DRTG 107
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201602080ATL.html

And are we just ignoring Sundays game?

Horford: 11 pts 6 rbs 6 ast on 33% shooting DRTG 104
Vooch: 22pts 9rbs 3asts on 57% shooting DRTG 94

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201602070ORL.html

Not the whole story but lets not pretend Vooch was playing matador defense while Horford was locking it down.

talking about Vuc's offense doesnt counter his defense. and im not saying he was playing matador defense, by all accounts he was tuned in. If he gave that effort every night, i would have no problem with him, similar to Payton.

That doesn't make any sense, first you tried to use Horford's stats from Mondays game as the reason why we shouldn't be praising Nik's defense, and now you say he was tuned in?

I wasn't saying his offense counters his defense, I was pointing out that Nik himself had a great game and overall was the better player in both games. He played great against a supposed "better defender and center".

Consistency is the issue as you stated, same goes for Elfrid. But time and time again statistical facts are used to show that Nik isn't as a bad a defender everyone is trying to make him out to be and the typical response is ignore them (Not saying you are, just in general.)

you can be tuned in and still not play great defense, but give great effort in other parts of the game. And i realize that you were not saying it his offense counters his defense, but other people were.

[MagicFan32]

Ok here is the deal on Vooch defense

in the post 1 on 1 he is pretty good, he uses his size well.

the problem is pick and roll, his feet are too slow and that is where he gets exploited