Barbeque Chicken: The Cody Zeller Thread - Pt 2

[Eoghan]

Cody's rim protection stats are piggybacking off of Marvin Williams, the team's real paint enforcer.

[catch20two]

Cody's rim protection stats are piggybacking off of Marvin Williams, the team's real paint enforcer.

And that's sad.

[catch20two]

Cody's lacking ability to grab rebounds individually hurt our offensive transition into fastbreak points and forces our wings to sink into the paint often freeing up outside shooters.

We know Cliff wants everyone to crash, he's emphasized defensive rebounding and adopted this scheme since the day he was hired and it's applied regardless of who was in the paint. Al was a dominant defensive rebounder and we took the same approach. Same with Biz.

His good rim protection stats is a product of everyone having to help him out.

I really wish someone would invest the time to present evidence of this being the case. I disagree, but I can be persuaded. So far I haven't seen anyone come close to building out this argument.

I think it's much more likely that we have poor perimeter defenders that don't know how to help and close out appropriately. I don't regularly see us doubling in the paint, that has never been a part of our scheme.

I would have to go back and do my research to see the ratio of 3s we gave up with Biz on the floor because I remember Kemba and crew being comfortable with handing off their assignment to Biz in the paint knowing he would erase most of anything at the rim. They don't feel that comfortable with Cody.

[fatlever]

SportsFromMyEyes ‏@JTyree704 2h2 hours ago
Just from knowing Cody Zeller and his body, I wouldn't be shocked if this shoulder injury was serious #Hornets.

[TinmanZBoy]

SportsFromMyEyes ‏@JTyree704 2h2 hours ago
Just from knowing Cody Zeller and his body, I wouldn't be shocked if this shoulder injury was serious #Hornets.

when it rains, it pours

[Eoghan]

It just seems odd that you are coming in to a debate about Zeller's value and your take is "he could have a major injury that takes away his athleticism, and that works really hurt his value." I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just saying that that also isn't really analyzing his current value.

Let's assume he never has that injury. How do you then assess his value and potential?

How's that current value looking now? He picks up injuries pretty frequently now, does he not? And people generally want him to continue playing center, bulking up to do so. Right now he's just injuring his shoulder and whatnot but an injury prone 7 footer putting more bulk on those spindly legs, that next injury could be a knee/foot related one easily.

Anywho, I don't believe Cody is useless in the half court. I think he is useful in a four out system as a rim runner. But he suffers from a disconnect in the team's desired style of play and complimentary personnel. You need depth - currently lacking due to injuries - and good ball movement and knockdown shooters for the 4 out to work. You get the right players on the perimeter and Zeller, who is an excellent screener, can make an impact diving to the rim.

You said what I meant. Another system, different players, different coach etc and Cody is probably alright in the half court but for Charlotte he's been a pretty underwhelming bit player.

[yosemiteben]

LHow's that current value looking now? He picks up injuries pretty frequently now, does he not?

This is his third season and only the second time he's been injured, and we don't know the extent of this injury. I think it's too early to act like he's injury prone.

[catch20two]

Aww man, Steven Adams put a bruising on Cody last night, huh. I know it looked like Cody was overwhelmingly overmatched physically but I didn't expect a injury. Hopefully he's okay. It's negligent of us to make Cody play C full time. He's just not built for it.

[Hornet Mania]

LHow's that current value looking now? He picks up injuries pretty frequently now, does he not?

This is his third season and only the second time he's been injured, and we don't know the extent of this injury. I think it's too early to act like he's injury prone.

It might also help if the refs would actually call a flagrant, or in some cases even just a foul, on some of the more brutal hits Zeller takes on a nightly basis. It seems like the officials apply football rules to that kid at times, and I don't get why a lot of the hits are overlooked. It's not like Zeller has a rep as an instigator, he just gets clobbered constantly.

He has his flaws as a player for sure, and I hate to put too much blame on the officials for guys getting hurt, but anyone who watches film knows you can get away with teeth-rattling hits against Zeller that would never fly if done to other players. I've begun to wonder if it isn't just common knowledge around the league, or perhaps guys give him a hard foul early to test the water and think "Oh, that's no problem? Great, I'm gonna crush this dude every time he goes up to shoot." It gets ridiculous after awhile, and we all see it, at least judging by comments in the game threads.

[spaceballer]

[ChokeFasncists]

^
Was that a foul?

[Benjamin Linus]

Kind of early, but how much do you think Zeller's going to make on his next contract? Not sure if I'm in the ballpark, but I guess I could see somewhere between 4 to 9 million a year? Although, we do have a tendency of overvaluing our players (many thought Biz would make 8 million a year and MKG would make 18 million a year) so I'm guessing something like $16 million over three years.

[JDR720]

probably something like 25mil for 3 years (8.3 per year/solid backup money)

[spaceballer]

Kind of early, but how much do you think Zeller's going to make on his next contract? Not sure if I'm in the ballpark, but I guess I could see somewhere between 4 to 9 million a year? Although, we do have a tendency of overvaluing our players (many thought Biz would make 8 million a year and MKG would make 18 million a year) so I'm guessing something like $16 million over three years.

It's hard to say, not only because he might improve between now and free agency, but also because of the coming cap jumps. We'll probably have a better idea after seeing the contracts signed over this coming summer, to gauge how the cap increase manifests in salaries for guys similar to Cody's value.

Then again, who knows what will happen during his free agency, since it coincides with new CBA negotiations that may completely change things in 2017. Maybe they'll have another lockout if they can't reach terms.

[HornetJail]

Kind of early, but how much do you think Zeller's going to make on his next contract? Not sure if I'm in the ballpark, but I guess I could see somewhere between 4 to 9 million a year? Although, we do have a tendency of overvaluing our players (many thought Biz would make 8 million a year and MKG would make 18 million a year) so I'm guessing something like $16 million over three years.

He's been a little disappointing at times this year, but if we can extend him with a Jeremy Lamb level contract, that would be terrific, but if his agent is smart, he would hold out for more money in the next summer.

[Eoghan]

I wouldn't give him anything more than 3 million a year and a bunch of gift cards to Ikea and Chik Fil A.

[fatlever]

Bump

There's been a lot of over-the-top negative Cody bashing lately, which I just don't understand. The negative Cody posts are so far to one side its hard to take them seriously. Its perfectly fine to dissect the flaws in his game and get on him for some bad performances and his inconsistent play, but at the same time, people need to recognize his really good games and the overall positive impact he has on the team when he is on the floor. It should not just be one-sided. Maybe we can have a fair, balanced discussion about Cody.

[fatlever]

First let me state my overall opinion of Cody...

I think Cody is ideally suited to be the 3rd big man in a rotation, as a high level backup center, who can also play minutes at power forward, perhaps averaging close to the 24mpg game he plays now. I don't think he has the size or strength to be a top half starting center, nor the shooting to be a top half starting power forward. If Cody is your starter at either position, are you probably always looking at some better alternatives in the draft and free agency.

Defensively, he is very good against most centers and power forwards, with the exception being some of the really big centers in the league. In terms of team defending, I believe he is definitely in the top half of starters at his position. While he will never be confused with a great rim protecting, imposing center, he does a very good job of keeping teams from scoring at the rim against him. He is quick enough to hedge on screens and recover, and while he can over-commit at times, its still a bonus trait in the end. We rebound well with him as a team, partly due to the fact that he is very fundamentally sound.

He has really improved this season as a roll man, especially when playing the pick and roll with Batum and Lin, two players who are good at finding a cutting roll man. Kemba is definitely improving in his play at finding Cody as well (something that can be traced to learning from Lin, no doubt, a discussion for a different thread). He is usually the 4th or 5th option on offense and we really dont run any plays for him other than the option of hitting him as a roll man.

He should only be viewed as a disappointment if compared against historical production from top half of the lottery draft spot. But where he is drafted, shouldn't define anyone's opinion of his game. If he was the 10th pick in that draft, nobody would care about where he was drafted. Its time to get over that aspect of his evaluation and simply focus on what he brings to the team now and perhaps going forward.

For those that like to trash Cody, I'd just ask them to view the team's stats with Cody on the floor and with him off the floor. View the teams rebounding % with him on the floor vs off. View Cody's Ortg/Drtg/Net Rating compared to the rest of the tea. View his production in terms of his low salary. And consider his age and the fact he is still improving every year. And stop thinking about him only in terms of a #4 pick or as the a guy that should eventually be a 18/9 type player, which will never be his game.

Cody has a lot of flaws, but he also has a lot to like about his game. I find it ridiculous when people are overly critical of him, w/out acknowledging his positives.

(edit: now, the discussion about whether I want to pay Cody the going rate for a starting center is a completely different discussion that we'll need to have another time).

[phillycheese]

I think those are fair observations. Cody is good at many things but not great at any one thing. He does the dirty work like boxing out and disrupting cross court cuts by opposing guards. He'll even step in and take the occasional charge. But he is not a stat stuffer nor does he have amazing athletic gifts. He also looks awkward and tends to fumble everything - I call this being unable to see the next play ahead. I think that is why he plays well with Batum, who sees the next play ahead, leads Cody there with the pass so Cody just has to finish. Plays well with Lin too, but not as good as with Nic, since Lin's passes to Cody are usually closer to the basket and in tighter spaces, so less time for Cody to react, hence the fumbling. He's pretty quiet and very professional, and may be his demeanor allows people to think they can take shots at him without fear. I think he needs a little bit of the mean streak, maybe a little of the psycho T.

[fatlever]

Rick Bonnell ‏@rick_bonnell 12m12 minutes ago

The @hornets say center Cody Zeller has a low back contusion. They list him as probable to play vs. Pacers Friday. No practice today.