Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

76ciology · Post #181 » by **76ciology** » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:28 pm

The reason why perimeter players are able to penetrate or drive and dish is because of the combination 3pt shooting and handcheck rule where the perimeter defender needs to choose his poison. That also explains why guys like Durant or Curry can lit up against guys like Iggy or Kawhi. With that said, I don't see Simmons being a dominant player until he can improve his jumper. He won't be able to use his superior length in the NBA. It will be matched while defender would just go under the screens. But then, if he can be a good perimeter shooter, I wouldn't be surprise if he ends up right there with KD&LBJ as an elite wing.

USWAY · Post #182 » by **USWAY** » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:49 am

Just saw that Ingram doesn't turn 19 until September. That has to bode well for his body development (weight gain). I had classmates older than him senior year of HS.

joyeuxnoel · Post #183 » by **joyeuxnoel** » Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:31 pm

76ciology wrote:The reason why perimeter players are able to penetrate or drive and dish is because of the combination 3pt shooting and handcheck rule where the perimeter defender needs to choose his poison. That also explains why guys like Durant or Curry can lit up against guys like Iggy or Kawhi. With that said, I don't see Simmons being a dominant player until he can improve his jumper. He won't be able to use his superior length in the NBA. It will be matched while defender would just go under the screens. But then, if he can be a good perimeter shooter, I wouldn't be surprise if he ends up right there with KD&LBJ as an elite wing.

people said the same thing about lebron coming in. and honestly simmons's problem isnt that he can't shoot, its that he doesnt shoot. although hes been shooting jumpers lately which is a good sign

SuperTheBoss · Post #184 » by **SuperTheBoss** » Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:33 pm

While I agree that Simmons' non shooting is a concern, I think it's partially due to the role they have him playing at LSU. I'm sure he has people in his ear about working on his shot and he probably is doing that, but him taking a lot of 3s does not fit within their offensive scheme.

If you look at Simmons' touch within 15 feet it is clear he has a shooter's hands. His natural feel for the game should translate to an improved (even if it never becomes +) jump shot. Nobody knew how good of a shooter KAT was going to be because he wasn't played as a stretch 4 as much at Kentucky.

Ericb5 · Post #185 » by **Ericb5** » Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:38 pm

SuperTheBoss wrote:While I agree that Simmons' non shooting is a concern, I think it's partially due to the role they have him playing at LSU. I'm sure he has people in his ear about working on his shot and he probably is doing that, but him taking a lot of 3s does not fit within their offensive scheme. Nobody knew how good of a shooter KAT was going to be because he wasn't played as a stretch 4 as much at Kentucky.

I think that it comes down to him being able to score without NEEDING a jumper right now. It is a skill that he will need to develop in the NBA, but if he can just be an average shooter he will be a superstar.

ET Da Gawd · Post #186 » by **ET Da Gawd** » Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:42 pm

He's even said it before, why should he pull up when no one can stop him from getting to the rim? It would mess up LSU's offense bc he's literally their only playmaker

Agnostifarian · Post #187 » by **Agnostifarian** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:04 pm

HOT TAKE AFTER WATCHING DUKE & LSU ON SATURDAY, 2/20:

Ingram had nine TOs in a loss to LOU. Simmons had eight TOs in a loss to TENN. These are the first tier prospects in the 2016 NBA Draft. This was a very bad day for the Tank. Ingram had the "yips" and Simmons looked very bored, maybe petulant. (Today, I am particularly pleased that we still have Okafor and not more BRK ping pong balls in the 2016 Draft.)

I have something to say about coaching. Coach K is a great and Ingram is playing in an NBA system that spreads the floor and emphasizes spacing, ball movement and cutting to the basket. Ingram is being used in a way that will carryover into his pro career.

Coach Jones, on the other hand, is a lousy coach. He has no idea how to use Simmons and Ben is suffering. ESPN's "beautiful, heart warming story of the surrogate dad mentoring the prodigy from down under" has run off the rails. Simmons was on the bench to start the game against TENN for what was reported as "academic issues." Whatever! When Ben did enter the game, he was deployed setting multiple screens around the foul line and the offense sputtered. Coach Jones changed it up after a few tortured possessions and put Simmons in the post. The results were not much better. Simmons needs the ball in his hands at the beginning of the possession. His teammates should be setting screens for him so he has clean lanes to go to the basket. Simmons is most dangerous in the open court when he has the ball and a head of steam which brings me to the next great misuse of his skills by the bungling Coach Jones.

edit: (I hit submit instead of preview...)

LSU's default defense is a zone with Simmons playing under the basket. If the opposition misses a shot and Ben collects the rebound, he can start the break off the dribble or with an outlet pass. However, if Coach Jones would play more MTM, the game can become more frenetic with better transition opportunities for his prodigy. Here's my one dig on Simmons today; he is awful at stopping the ball when it penetrates the outside of the zone. Freakin' Turrible! He doesn't establish position to take a charge opting instead to take a swipe at the ball as the ball handler drives to the goal. Those hand swipes are going to be fouls in the NBA. What is more confounding about the zone scheme that Jones has played is that Simmons is not a rim protector!

To summarize: Ben Simmons has had an awful freshman campaign despite the gaudy stats. His team will not make the Tournament. He will enter the Draft as a top 2 pick with these caveats: inability and unwillingness to shoot a jump shot, not a rim protector, good not great athlete, average measurements for an NBA PF, questionable lateral movement and defense to guard SFs. Tweener. Thanks very much Coach Jones.

theo42 · Post #188 » by **theo42** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:26 pm

I will say it again...Ingram fits us better.

His shooting, ability to take it to the hole, length, and defense just fits us.

I would be fine with him or Simmons but I really feel good about Ingram.

76ciology · Post #189 » by **76ciology** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:25 pm

Agnostifarian wrote:HOT TAKE AFTER WATCHING DUKE & LSU ON SATURDAY, 2/20:

Ingram had nine TOs in a loss to LOU. Simmons had eight TOs in a loss to TENN. These are the first tier prospects in the 2016 NBA Draft. This was a very bad day for the Tank. Ingram had the "yips" and Simmons looked very bored, maybe petulant. (Today, I am particularly pleased that we still have Okafor and not more BRK ping pong balls in the 2016 Draft.)

I have something to say about coaching. Coach K is a great and Ingram is playing in an NBA system that spreads the floor and emphasizes spacing, ball movement and cutting to the basket. Ingram is being used in a way that will carryover into his pro career.

Coach Jones, on the other hand, is a lousy coach. He has no idea how to use Simmons and Ben is suffering. ESPN's "beautiful, heart warming story of the surrogate dad mentoring the prodigy from down under" has run off the rails. Simmons was on the bench to start the game against TENN for what was reported as "academic issues." Whatever! When Ben did enter the game, he was deployed setting multiple screens around the foul line and the offense sputtered. Coach Jones changed it up after a few tortured possessions and put Simmons in the post. The results were not much better. Simmons needs the ball in his hands at the beginning of the possession. His teammates should be setting screens for him so he has clean lanes to go to the basket. Simmons is most dangerous in the open court when he has the ball and a head of steam which brings me to the next great misuse of his skills by the bungling Coach Jones.

edit: (I hit submit instead of preview...)

LSU's default defense is a zone with Simmons playing under the basket. If the opposition misses a shot and Ben collects the rebound, he can start the break off the dribble or with an outlet pass. However, if Coach Jones would play more MTM, the game can become more frenetic with better transition opportunities for his prodigy. Here's my one dig on Simmons today; he is awful at stopping the ball when it penetrates the outside of the zone. Freakin' Turrible! He doesn't establish position to take a charge opting instead to take a swipe at the ball as the ball handler drives to the goal. Those hand swipes are going to be fouls in the NBA. What is more confounding about the zone scheme that Jones has played is that Simmons is not a rim protector!

To summarize: Ben Simmons has had an awful freshman campaign despite the gaudy stats. His team will not make the Tournament. He will enter the Draft as a top 2 pick with these caveats: inability and unwillingness to shoot a jump shot, not a rim protector, good not great athlete, average measurements for an NBA PF, questionable lateral movement and defense to guard SFs. Tweener. Thanks very much Coach Jones.

I do think most of the flaws are being protected by their coach because of an agreement during recruitment process or just maximizing the talent of his team.

But yeah, i do see some concerning signs on Simmons. He's more of a Blake Griffin than LBJ to me, for now. I don't think he can take it inside dominantly like in college. He will have to improve his shot in order to live up to the hype. Defensively, it's tough to judge these guys because teams do implement zones and schemes to hide their weaknesses.

Ericb5 · Post #190 » by **Ericb5** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:37 pm

The games this weekend with Ingram and Simmons don't scare me about either one of them. It just shows the danger of great expectations every time out.

I mean, 40 years ago freshmen weren't even eligible to play in the ncaa, and now people are expecting the best freshmen to be great every game, and be the best player on the floor every game.

It is unfair.

They are both young superstar prospects that will have bad games every once in a while.

It's a non issue to me.

I continue to believe that Simmons is far and away the first pick, and Ingram is far and away the 2nd pick. Everyone else will not be able to pass either one of those guys.

Bender is a huge mystery to me simply because he is so young and doesn't play very much, but I don't see Dunn or Brown approaching Ingram before draft day.

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SelfishPlayer · Post #191 » by **SelfishPlayer** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:48 am

Even though the Sixers roster isn't set in stone, Ingram fits better with what's already within the organization. Simmons has some similarities to Dario Saric, a supersized small forward that produces best when handling the basketball. That's a little reminiscent of Evan Turner. Ingram can be highly productive as a shooter and finisher and he looks like he can play shooting guard in the NBA similar to KD as a rookie and Paul George. With Embiid joining the team, the Sixers do not need anymore young players that can not space the floor. Simmons could certainly develop a 3 point jump shot, but it just looks like Ingram is on pace to be a high level outside shooter in the NBA early in his career.

C Nerlens Noel, Embiid
PF Jahlil Okafor
SF Dario Saric
SG Brandon Ingram
PG ???

76ciology · Post #192 » by **76ciology** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:32 am

How can you defend Ingram in today's game? You sag into the paint, he'll easily hit that perimeter shot with his length and shooting. You go close him out at the perimeter, he'll penetrate with his adequate ball handling where if you try to impede him, you'll easily be called for a foul. Ingram, Jah and Biid are easily 20+ppg scorers in this league while having enough length for atleast adequate rim protection. Hopefully improved overall length and better length& athleticism + defensive chemistry/schemes would improve this team's defense.

I see Ingram game benefitting with the way the NBA is played nowadays, just like KP and Towns.

freshie2 · Post #193 » by **freshie2** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:46 am

A lot of this will come down to the interviews. Both are incredibly talented, but which one has the mental makeup the team with the first pick covet?? Does Simmons workout and show an improved jumper? Does Ingram arrive 15 lbs heavier and chiseled (somewhat)? They are both very intriguing prospects so there may not be a wrong choice, but Simmons does appear to have more star potential at this time.

Post #194 » by **zimpy27** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:02 am

If 76ers grab Ingram and Embiid is healthy then I think they should go out and pick up Dellavedova in free agency and then try trade Okafor, McConnell and picks for Jimmy Butler. Bulls are heading for a rebuild in the next season or two.

HotelVitale · Post #195 » by **HotelVitale** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:17 am

76ciology wrote:He's more of a Blake Griffin than LBJ to me, for now.

That seems pretty generous, actually. Most of Simmons' pts come because he's just bigger and more athletic than anyone who can guard him, and that won't happen much in the NBA (where there's always a laterally quick 6'9 guy to defend you). He isn't super quick, isn't super strong, isn't super athletic, isn't huge. He's a PF with great body control and vision, a solid handle and potential to develop in other areas. I think of him as sort of like an Antawn Jamison body/skillset, who can make a lot happen with the ball.

For some perspective, in his rookie year Griffin's overall averages were better than Simmons' NCAA ones. Dude was immediately a dominant force. Him as a rook seems like the very best case scenario for Simmons. (Also, no one should have any association between Lebron James and Simmons as prospects, that's strictly Stephen A Smith-type nonsense).

HotelVitale · Post #196 » by **HotelVitale** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:22 am

zimpy27 wrote:If 76ers grab Ingram and Embiid is healthy then I think they should go out and pick up Dellavedova in free agency and then try trade Okafor, McConnell and picks for Jimmy Butler. Bulls are heading for a rebuild in the next season or two.

Why are the Bulls headed for a rebuild? They'd be a 50-win team if not for injuries, and Butler's 26, Mirotic 25, and Portis 21. No one has ever scrapped a 50-win team led by young guys just because they're not serious champ favorites. Noah and Gasol pass on in a year or two, and the younger guys keep chuggin.

Wilfried · Post #197 » by **Wilfried** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:40 am

Do you guys think Ingram will become a better guard than Wiggins?
He seems to have more length and a natural scoring gift than Wiggins. And his length will give him an advantage on D too.

76ciology · Post #198 » by **76ciology** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:44 am

Wilfried wrote:Do you guys think Ingram will become a better guard than Wiggins?
He seems to have more length and a natural scoring gift than Wiggins. And his length will give him an advantage on D too.

Definitely.

Defensively he has waaaay better rebs+deflections potential. Offensively, that jumpshot makes a world of difference. Where he doesn't need to take it to the post like wiggins and having a non mid range heavy game, which personally for me is the obsolete way to score for a wing.

Ingram is exactly what Wiggins need to be. Way better shooter (easier way to create that leads to assists; see durant)and more rebs+deflections.

freshie2 · Post #199 » by **freshie2** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:23 am

It will be interesting to see how Ingram fairs athletically in the NBA...I think he may have a bigger adjustment than some people think until he gains some strength/weight.

NJ SixerFan · Post #200 » by **NJ SixerFan** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:18 pm

I don't worry about that much he'll put on weight and get stronger as he develops physically and on top of that you can't touch anyone on defense anymore. I can see Ingram as one of the players in the league that hover around the league lead on ft attempts as smaller wings struggle to defend him.