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Trade Discussion

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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1561 » by oddity » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:06 pm

Frank Lee wrote:
oddity wrote:Easier Booker is a locked in starter and both Warren and Len can be. .....



Now sober.... I am not going comb through your post in NavLo fashion 8-) .... just this statement about a starting core...the 'Can be' caveat is insulation from reality. Locked in? You sure?

Right now, Booker starts by default. Would he keep his place when healthy Bled and Knight return ? My guess, yes, especially if the marketing department has anything to say about it. He makes the trade for Knight look even worse. (whoops, I did it again) But, you got me there. I am biased with Knightmare. Seems one of Bled or BK needs to be shipped. And if they need to be shipped, will they will get the starter treatment to amplify their perceived worth? (Sound familiar) But yes... Its Booker's job to lose. 90% chance he starts next season. This place will meltdown if not.

Len, the anointed future center ? He a brittle and has regressed. What was the logic again behind signing Chandler??? Are you sure it was about signing LMA? But yet, Len is the future starter??? One nagging injury after another. Surgeries at this young age ? I think he is heading to be a tall guy back up. I still have hope because he has yet to ever play with a true PG, well, may be Dragic, but we know how that turned out. If he can't stay healthy, he isn't part of any core. (Same goes for Bled) BTW, any bets he will be shelved for the season with that bum ankle ? Is it the same problematic one? Not a bad pick, as there were not many in that draft that have impacted teams.... except a couple centers taken later (Adams, Gobert) Len as a starter next season? ....<50% Due to health as much as talent.. big guys with bad wheels don't turn out well.

And Warren? Could be a starter ? Read this forum... 2 months ago he was a future all star... he put together a few good games... then the word got out. He can't cover any SFs, and is not a PF. A good scoring kind of tweener forward. We've seen several come out of college who had a difficult transition to the speed and athleticism you see nightly in the NBA. He is a 7-8th man in my book. Not a bad pick, but again, not one of my cornerstones. 0 % chance to start next yr. Well, 1% if Tucker is traded. and we don't draft Ingram or JBrown

Thank goodness you are not on the Archie train. Kid needs 2-3 more years of work. Fortunately, he has the time. But so did DJ Strawberry

So there... you have it... my biased assessment. Sorry to pizz in the hopeful youthmovemt cheerios...sorry if I'm not bandwagoning with the McDazzle love. Its very difficult to rebuild by Draft only... yet, it seems that is the path, for now. this draft is so important. Its sadly, what our season boils down to. Finally, a full blown tank. We should be landing a starter, but there is no certainties come draft day. GDit, just get the #1 for a change. At least there is no coin flip.



Booker is an obvious future starter. It would be fallacious to try and compare him, a rookie, to players like Knight and Bled who have been playing for years. The fact you even tried it shows the poisoning of the well.

Alex Len has improved or stayed the same in almost every major category this year. Take a look at his per-36 numbers. The biggest thing to me is that his assists are way up: more than DOUBLE the rate of last year. It shows he's playing more to the flow of the game. Even the eye test shows improvement that can be backed. If you look at his numbers on touches, he's getting more and more shots off of 1-2 dribbles as opposed to last year, and shooting about the same percentage. To me it seems like he's still very much growing as a players, but limited minutes and coaching turnover has obviously kept him from getting all that much play. Don't close the door on Len; he's got a future. Definitely not an All-Star but I'd bet my money on him starting long term for us within the next 2 years.

As for TJ, his defense is obviously something to be improved, but he's almost at a starting caliber level right now, in only his second year. His other commonly noted weakness - his 3pt% - has been covered. He's now shooting 40% on a middling 1.5 attempts. He's no sharpshooter of the Korver/Reddick/Curry variety, but at least he's a threat from out there. What's more important is that he's shown the ability to improve, and there's no reason to think that he won't continue to for the next few years. His defense has been up and down, but he's as efficient a scorer as they come, and he should start next year. The only reason to keep TJ on the bench (other than his D, which isn't even as horrendous as you'd like us to believe. His perimeter D is actually decent, but he must work on contesting inside. http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203933/tracking/defense/ ) is if you want to have a scoring spark to come in and get some (Tony) buckets.

Even if TJ, Len, and to a faaaaaar lesser extent Archie (he's most definitely still a project) wind up at their floors and never improve beyond what they are, you still have a solid group of role players to surround a Devin Booker/whoever we draft top 5 this year (and hopefully next year too) with. Not only that, but these players are young and fit with the multitude of draft picks coming down the pipeline in the next few years. I agree that we've got an obvious tank ahead of us, but I've said that from the beginning. Our outlook isn't peaches and rainbows, but it also isn't the depths of hell as well. Our position is still far better now than it was 3 years ago. And disregarding any and all of that, it still has nothing to do with what I called you out on in the first place.

You're "draftees only have a 30/70 chance of being good" argument has more holes in it than swiss cheese.
1: I'd rather have 30% than 0% without a pick in the first place!
2: What about the Lakers pick, where if we had it in Philly's place we'd only have a 44% chance OF GETTING THAT PICK IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Simply put, you cannot wave off praise for McD on the acquisition of the Wizards pick while continuing to use the trade of the Lakers pick as a stick to beat him with. That is cherry picking of the highest order.
Stop with the hypocrisy. Have an opinion but let that opinion be reflective of facts. DO NOT try to bend and accept facts based on your opinion. That is absolutely backwards.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1562 » by oddity » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:19 pm

Frank Lee wrote:Its a circle isn't it.... Where are any facts about any 'projected' player? Any protected pick? Stats do back up the odds against finding a diamond in the rough, or just even a precious stone. Stats do say the further down you pick, the less likely you are to even find a starter. Just look and see. Stats say you bank on the draft to improve and you will have a delayed return, if any. McDoOver has a small sample size of drafting... and the odds say that the more he selects, the closer he will come to the standard returns. But are these facts or stats? Is he really some talent scout wizard ? BTW, can't any good statistician back up his argument right or wrong ?

I have come to terms with this team/organization. We realistically are back to square one with playoff hopes. We have some nice assets, but once again, it looks like we will go into the next year with more than half a locker room of new guys. The standard preachy lecture of how we are positioned better than we were three years is moot...AS WE DAMN WELL SHOULD BE BETTER. You have to make a stand somewhere. I think I'm going to stand over in the shade, and just let these Suns set. Too much has to shake out before anyone can see clearly where we are. Call me lazy or emotional, I really don't care, my opinion is one that seems to be shared by at least a few. Fact is, more than 50% of the posters from the past 4-5 yrs aren't participating in this dead end discussion about this disheveled squad.


Ahhhh but guess what? There are new posters like me here to take up that mantle.

Back to your argument about projection, it is largely a grey area. It is common knowledge that a player will improve over time as he gains experience and grows his body/game for the next level. It would be ridiculous of me to say that Booker will wind up in this EXACT spot, putting up these EXACT numbers in this EXACT amount of time, but it would be equally ridiculous to say that a Rookie/Sophomore player won't improve. The chances are that Booker will repeat the cycle shown by virtually every single NBA player to have ever played and improve significantly for the next 3-4 years, before plateauing for a while. That is a logical argument. I don't need to pull up proof from the future to know that, just like we can predict astronomical changes based on the known history of stars' movement. That's the basis of science: to be able to predict outcomes based on fact and history. My argument is indeed logically sound.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1563 » by Sunsdeuce » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:24 pm

Good article.

http://arizonasports.com/story/559551/with-other-pressing-needs-still-uncertainty-guard-suns/

Basically to sum up this article:

Fans are growing more impatient with McDonough by the day and they aren’t just expecting improvement, they’re expecting to contend for a playoff spot like they were supposed to for the past two seasons.

Most of the major transactions have not gone his way and continue to multiply the pressure as our own Bryan Gibberman highlighted.

A lot has gone wrong, but the selection of Booker has been a life saver. There’s still a lot to be determined.

Bledsoe’s health, the growth of the 2013 and 2014 draft picks, the (possible) three selections in this year’s draft and how the Suns address their needs with plenty of assets still left and potentially $30 million in cap space give them a chance to still wind up where most thought they would be in 2013.

Should the Suns draft a guard with their top pick in the 2016 draft? Of course not. It would be a mistake, however, to undermine the uncertainty at both guard positions.
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Re: RE: Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1564 » by jredsaz » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:02 pm

sunsbum wrote:
Mulhollanddrive wrote:Maybe Markieff wasn't playing bad on purpose!

Apart from our 1st dream season, he's been a terrible player!

And that's not going to change by shooting contested 18 footers as a career.

Thanks Wizards.



I dunno about that. Our team looked like we were ready to win some games with keef in the starting lineup before the allstar break.


I think playing with Wall will help Morris take the next step. I can see his numbers jumping to 18/8/4 next year. He will be hitting his peak at 27 and playing with a distributor like Wall should open up some extra space on his 18 footers.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1565 » by WeekapaugGroove » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:01 pm

Frank Lee wrote:Its a circle isn't it.... Where are any facts about any 'projected' player? Any protected pick? Stats do back up the odds against finding a diamond in the rough, or just even a precious stone. Stats do say the further down you pick, the less likely you are to even find a starter. Just look and see. Stats say you bank on the draft to improve and you will have a delayed return, if any. McDoOver has a small sample size of drafting... and the odds say that the more he selects, the closer he will come to the standard returns. But are these facts or stats? Is he really some talent scout wizard ? BTW, can't any good statistician back up his argument right or wrong ?

I have come to terms with this team/organization. We realistically are back to square one with playoff hopes. We have some nice assets, but once again, it looks like we will go into the next year with more than half a locker room of new guys. The standard preachy lecture of how we are positioned better than we were three years is moot...AS WE DAMN WELL SHOULD BE BETTER. You have to make a stand somewhere. I think I'm going to stand over in the shade, and just let these Suns set. Too much has to shake out before anyone can see clearly where we are. Call me lazy or emotional, I really don't care, my opinion is one that seems to be shared by at least a few. Fact is, more than 50% of the posters from the past 4-5 yrs aren't participating in this dead end discussion about this disheveled squad.


You're not wrong this team is a mess. But I'm curious what you think mcd should've done differently and what should he do over the next 6 months?

I feel like that's a more productive discussion than simply complaining without offering a solution which is simply whining.

I wish they would have stopped trading after dealing dragic and it and not signed chandler last summer and just comitted to going young. I hope they don't wast money on vets this summer and stay the course with the young guys.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1566 » by rsavaj » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:27 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:I'm just waiting until next year when people decide to blast McD for not getting enough for Markieff just so they can complain even more (like people who simultaneously complain about us signing and trading IT).


I don't see complaining about signing and trading IT as being too intellectually incongruous. You can think McD made a mistake to initially sign him, and think he further expounded on that mistake by selling low on him at the deadline after moving Dragic. They're not mutually exclusive positions.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1567 » by Sunsdeuce » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:50 pm

So how long till Markieff publicly bashes the Suns organization. It's going to happen just wondering how long it takes.
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Trade Discussion 

Post#1568 » by jcsunsfan » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:52 pm

rsavaj wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:I'm just waiting until next year when people decide to blast McD for not getting enough for Markieff just so they can complain even more (like people who simultaneously complain about us signing and trading IT).


I don't see complaining about signing and trading IT as being too intellectually incongruous. You can think McD made a mistake to initially sign him, and think he further expounded on that mistake by selling low on him at the deadline after moving Dragic. They're not mutually exclusive positions.


But you can also think that he signed him cheap and while he could have gotten more for him, the pick we got for him was an overall bonus. Also getting two first round picks for a guy who was going to walk anyway and who would be significantly overpaid, was also a bonus.

You can spin negatively or positively. It's all still spin.


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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1569 » by DirtyDez » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:57 pm

When, not if, the Clipps get eliminated in the 2nd round they could look for a major shakeup. Many teams would be interested in Blake and Paul but they'd probably try to attach Deandre Jordan to one of them.

Knight, Warren, Chandler, Len, 16' 1st (if outside the top-3), future 1st's (possibly Miami's) for Griffin/Jordan.

The Suns could get Love for less most likely and his game may age better than Blake's and he's under contract. Boston would have the upper hand for either guy if it's a bidding war. They're closer to contention and have better assets/more cap space.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1570 » by MrMiyagi » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:11 pm

DirtyDez wrote:When, not if, the Clipps get eliminated in the 2nd round they could look for a major shakeup. Many teams would be interested in Blake and Paul but they'd probably try to attach Deandre Jordan to one of them.

Knight, Warren, Chandler, Len, 16' 1st (if outside the top-3), future 1st's (possibly Miami's) for Griffin/Jordan.

The Suns could get Love for less most likely and his game may age better than Blake's and he's under contract. Boston would have the upper hand for either guy if it's a bidding war. They're closer to contention and have better assets/more cap space.

I don't understand this logic. The argument for trading Blake was because CP3/DeAndre were pretty dynamite in his absence, and trading Blake would give them much needed depth. If the Clips don't think they can win a ring with the current guys, the guy to trade would be CP3 or DeAndre for someone who fits better with their 26 year old superstar.

Besides, that trade offer gets laughed at and hung up on so fast it's not even funny.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1571 » by DirtyDez » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:32 pm

MrMiyagi wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:When, not if, the Clipps get eliminated in the 2nd round they could look for a major shakeup. Many teams would be interested in Blake and Paul but they'd probably try to attach Deandre Jordan to one of them.

Knight, Warren, Chandler, Len, 16' 1st (if outside the top-3), future 1st's (possibly Miami's) for Griffin/Jordan.

The Suns could get Love for less most likely and his game may age better than Blake's and he's under contract. Boston would have the upper hand for either guy if it's a bidding war. They're closer to contention and have better assets/more cap space.

I don't understand this logic. The argument for trading Blake was because CP3/DeAndre were pretty dynamite in his absence, and trading Blake would give them much needed depth. If the Clips don't think they can win a ring with the current guys, the guy to trade would be CP3 or DeAndre for someone who fits better with their 26 year old superstar.

Besides, that trade offer gets laughed at and hung up on so fast it's not even funny.


CP3 is Doc's guy. From what we've heard he's more open to trading Blake even though it should be the other way around. Someone will try to take advantage of that but I agree in they'll get better offers in the offseason. That offer to the Nuggetts was likely bunk. Ultimately I think he'll stay in LA for another season then leave in FA. Maybe Boston if they trade for Cousins.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1572 » by MrMiyagi » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:40 pm

DirtyDez wrote:
CP3 is Doc's guy. From what we've heard he's more open to trading Blake even though it should be the other way around. Someone will try to take advantage of that but I agree in they'll get better offers in the offseason. That offer to the Nuggetts was likely bunk. Ultimately I think he'll stay in LA for another season then leave in FA. Maybe Boston if they trade for Cousins.

Yeah, but your trade had us getting Blake and DeAndre. DeAndre was the reason The Clips could entertain the idea of trading Blake because he does so well with CP3. They wouldn't unload Blake and DeAndre and try to build around CP3. It just doesn't make sense.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1573 » by NavLDO » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:50 pm

Frank Lee wrote:tell me jack wads, what team has done worse over the past three years???? The nets ? The sixers ? nice company to be in eh? oooo, but we have miami's pick 3 yrs from now.... ooooo

reality sucks sometimes


So does not understanding that a team is in the midst of a rebuild and are TANKING!!! You are really going to try and compare this team to other teams, then blame McD with the roster he was handed? Do you REALLY not remember our roster from 2012-2013? Here, I'll post, yet AGAIN:

Kendall Marshall
Dionte Garrett
Goran Dragic
Shannon Brown
Jared Dudley
Wesley Johnson
Michael Beasley
PJ Tucker
Luis Scola
Markieff Morris
Channing Frye
Marcus Morris
Marcin Gortat
Jermaine O'Neal
Hamed Haddadi

We were 25-57...now GO! Make our team a Playoff Contender in 2.5 years...

Yeah, we've stunk up the joint; what do you expect? And again, can you not see that after losing our top 3 PGs this season that we are tanking??? Do you really not see that?

So, which trade was bad, Frank?

Goran Dragic, 29YO, 12.5/5.5, making 5/$85M...for...2018 (Top 7 Protected) and 2021 (Unprotected), Granger, Salmons

or

(Likely) 2017 (Top 3 Protected), Ennis, Plumlee...for...Knight, 24 YO, 20/5, making 5/$70M, and Kendall Marshall

Because we received a better, younger, cheaper talent, and a Net +1 1st Rd draft pick between those two trades. You can't complain about trading away talent, then when we trade FOR talent, you complain about trading a pick. You can't have it both ways.

Again, you talk about trading away talent for draft picks, yet fail to recognize that we upgraded Dragic? You may not believe that to be true, and you can hate Knight all you want, but the bottom line truth is we got, again, a better, younger, and cheaper player, AND an extra 1st Rd Draft Pick. Dragic proved for ONE year that he was an All NBA 3rd Team player back when he was 26-27. Sorry, but he's not that player anymore. Stop living in the past.

McD also traded Dudley and other trash for Eric Bledsoe...more talent. Jailbird for Kris Humphries...MORE talent...so this isn't all talent for draft picks, we've traded for talent as well.

Yes, Kieff is talented, but he's also a bonehead, as is his brother. You can't honestly think we should have kept them, because that's all you've complained about for the past 6 months, is WHY McD hasn't traded him yet. Well, we did, and now you are going to try to complain that we traded away talent? Unbelievable...

And to Sunsdeuce. Really? You are going to call a 27th overall pick a BAD pick? Or a 50th overall pick a BAD pick? Man, that's just REALLY reaching to try to make a point. You've done nothing but complained...about everything...are you sure you are even a Suns fan??? Hate to tell you, but the Suns are in rebuild mode. We all would love NOT to be in rebuild mode, but we are, and it doesn't happen overnight, especially when one of the talents you were counting on (Morris) decided to be an idiot AND a baby. That's not McD's fault.

I'm not sure what all you naysayers expect. We can't turn around a team overnight. It doesn't work that way. McD didn't build the 27-55 team, he was handed it and told to fix it, then he and Horny built a winning team, then Sarver decided to try to build on it instead of doing what we are doing now, and that's rebuilding. It's gonna take AT LEAST until the end of next season to MAYBE have a playoff squad. If you all can't handle that fact, then I would step away from the Suns and the NBA for a couple of years, because complaining about it every other day isn't going to speed up the process; it's just going to upset you more and more.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1574 » by jcsunsfan » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:12 am

NavLDO wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:tell me jack wads, what team has done worse over the past three years???? The nets ? The sixers ? nice company to be in eh? oooo, but we have miami's pick 3 yrs from now.... ooooo

reality sucks sometimes


So does not understanding that a team is in the midst of a rebuild and are TANKING!!! You are really going to try and compare this team to other teams, then blame McD with the roster he was handed? Do you REALLY not remember our roster from 2012-2013? Here, I'll post, yet AGAIN:

Kendall Marshall
Dionte Garrett
Goran Dragic
Shannon Brown
Jared Dudley
Wesley Johnson
Michael Beasley
PJ Tucker
Luis Scola
Markieff Morris
Channing Frye
Marcus Morris
Marcin Gortat
Jermaine O'Neal
Hamed Haddadi

We were 25-57...now GO! Make our team a Playoff Contender in 2.5 years...

Yeah, we've stunk up the joint; what do you expect? And again, can you not see that after losing our top 3 PGs this season that we are tanking??? Do you really not see that?

So, which trade was bad, Frank?

Goran Dragic, 29YO, 12.5/5.5, making 5/$85M...for...2018 (Top 7 Protected) and 2021 (Unprotected), Granger, Salmons

or

(Likely) 2017 (Top 3 Protected), Ennis, Plumlee...for...Knight, 24 YO, 20/5, making 5/$70M, and Kendall Marshall

Because we received a better, younger, cheaper talent, and a Net +1 1st Rd draft pick between those two trades. You can't complain about trading away talent, then when we trade FOR talent, you complain about trading a pick. You can't have it both ways.

Again, you talk about trading away talent for draft picks, yet fail to recognize that we upgraded Dragic? You may not believe that to be true, and you can hate Knight all you want, but the bottom line truth is we got, again, a better, younger, and cheaper player, AND an extra 1st Rd Draft Pick. Dragic proved for ONE year that he was an All NBA 3rd Team player back when he was 26-27. Sorry, but he's not that player anymore. Stop living in the past.

McD also traded Dudley and other trash for Eric Bledsoe...more talent. Jailbird for Kris Humphries...MORE talent...so this isn't all talent for draft picks, we've traded for talent as well.

Yes, Kieff is talented, but he's also a bonehead, as is his brother. You can't honestly think we should have kept them, because that's all you've complained about for the past 6 months, is WHY McD hasn't traded him yet. Well, we did, and now you are going to try to complain that we traded away talent? Unbelievable...

And to Sunsdeuce. Really? You are going to call a 27th overall pick a BAD pick? Or a 50th overall pick a BAD pick? Man, that's just REALLY reaching to try to make a point. You've done nothing but complained...about everything...are you sure you are even a Suns fan??? Hate to tell you, but the Suns are in rebuild mode. We all would love NOT to be in rebuild mode, but we are, and it doesn't happen overnight, especially when one of the talents you were counting on (Morris) decided to be an idiot AND a baby. That's not McD's fault.

I'm not sure what all you naysayers expect. We can't turn around a team overnight. It doesn't work that way. McD didn't build the 27-55 team, he was handed it and told to fix it, then he and Horny built a winning team, then Sarver decided to try to build on it instead of doing what we are doing now, and that's rebuilding. It's gonna take AT LEAST until the end of next season to MAYBE have a playoff squad. If you all can't handle that fact, then I would step away from the Suns and the NBA for a couple of years, because complaining about it every other day isn't going to speed up the process; it's just going to upset you more and more.


OK. I still like McD. He is great at winning trades. Even his worst trade, Knight for the Laker pick is still far from decided. I view the IT trade as a net win in the end since we ended up with a first round pick out of a very good FA signing.

But, while he is good at picking ingredients, the cake isn't very good. The jury is out though. After this summer we will add

1. Bledsoe
2. Knight
3. Warren
4. 1-5 pick
5. 1-15 pick
6. 25-28 pick (probably won't impact much)
7. Probably one or two free agents, maybe even one very good one.
8. A coach
9. Subtract the Markieff distraction.

That has the makings for a VERY different year next year.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1575 » by sunsbum » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:24 am

The microcosm of franks arguments - him comparing Archie Goodwin to Dj Strawberry.

I cant stand the hate for Alex Len on this board. The guy is so young and has shown imorovement every year. Why can he not continue on that path??

Everyone was super on fire for t.j. earlier this year and now because hes having some overblown defensive issues hes not a starter or 6th man in the next few years?

Archie didnt resemble anything close to a basketball player 2 years ago. Whats Archie going to look like 2 years from now? Hes obviously worked hard to get where hes at, the game seems to be slowing down for him... Whats the rush?

That goes for all three of these dudes. Its been a long time since we've grown our own talent. Lets be patient and watch these guys blossom.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1576 » by Sunsdeuce » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:29 am

@jcsuns, your 100% correct.

Bottom line, if your not winning, your not winning. People can quote all this stuff that Ryan is good at or bad at. This is a results driven sport (just like the NFL or any other major sport). If your product isn't winning games, your not successful.

Right now Ryan's results suck. He's has a few good draft picks but that don't really mean much in a business where winning is all that matters. I mean The way things are going under Ryan, I see Ronnie Price as an interim coach in 3 or 4 years.

@sunsbum I really like what Len can offer. But I see two things that have crippled his potential. 1) obviously injuries. 2) Tyson Chandler. His presence causes Len to have sporadic playing time this hindering Len's development. If it was me in the front office, instead of coddling Markieff and making him the "focus" of the offense, I would have had Len take that role. I mean we suck anyway, might as well see what Len really has.


As for NAV....your never ending paragraphs tend to be a bit to long and quite frankly are annoying. That's why I don't respond to your posts. Make your point and move on. You harp and harp and harp and harp about the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again.


My last thought on Ryan: Ryan has some good ingredients In The cupboard but his cooking sucks right now.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1577 » by bwgood77 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:44 am

DirtyDez wrote:When, not if, the Clipps get eliminated in the 2nd round they could look for a major shakeup. Many teams would be interested in Blake and Paul but they'd probably try to attach Deandre Jordan to one of them.

Knight, Warren, Chandler, Len, 16' 1st (if outside the top-3), future 1st's (possibly Miami's) for Griffin/Jordan.

The Suns could get Love for less most likely and his game may age better than Blake's and he's under contract. Boston would have the upper hand for either guy if it's a bidding war. They're closer to contention and have better assets/more cap space.


Their entire problem (if you want to call being the 4th seed a problem) is that Griffin and Jordan don't necessarily complement each other well. So trading for both wouldn't do you much good, particularly if you don't have as good a PG as Paul. Blake would be good with a stretch 5 that could block shots/protect the rim.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1578 » by AtheJ415 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:56 am

rsavaj wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:I'm just waiting until next year when people decide to blast McD for not getting enough for Markieff just so they can complain even more (like people who simultaneously complain about us signing and trading IT).


I don't see complaining about signing and trading IT as being too intellectually incongruous. You can think McD made a mistake to initially sign him, and think he further expounded on that mistake by selling low on him at the deadline after moving Dragic. They're not mutually exclusive positions.


They are when those same people believe the signing ruined the team by forcing us to move Dragic. Because that brings all of it full circle, and you cannot pick and choose positions in that circumstance.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1579 » by Frank Lee » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:57 am

Man you make up **** Nav.

The past month + I have maintained neutrality for trading Morris...but maintained he will traded in the off season. I don't demand, I predict. You are lying to say I have been complaining for the past 6 months to trade MoBro. I think my last post prior to the trade was the FO will be making a statement on deadline day. Don't confuse or lump me with others.

I think Dragic is a better point guard than Knight. And a better facilitator than Bledsoe.... look what he did here, not so much what he does in Miami, under entirely different circumstances, entirely different team. Is an extra 3 mill per is really such a detrimental factor? If So, then NEVER mention how Knights deal will look like a bargain once the cap goes up. Its trivial at this point. Just stop it. Until Knight shows he can run a team, don't tell me he is better than Dragic just because of his price tag. Stats don't show low BBIQ and chuckiness. He has yet to prove his worth. You guys can't defend him without pointing out how F-n young he is and then tea leaf his future improvement. The guy has never shown he can lead a team, not here, not in Detroit, not in Milwaukee, not even in Kentucky...where as Dragic has proven he could.

And btw, we were bad when we were healthy.

Go ahead and half full the remainder of the year. There are two sides to every coin. also, I love how you guys always blame Sarver for forcing McDoTooMuchTooFast ransacking a team 1-2 games away from the playoffs... like any owner/Fan wouldn't expect improvement? Like any GM wouldn't try to put a better team on the floor ? It is y'all that have created this myth that Sarver hindered McDogPile's real tanking plan....even when he has said himself that he got too tradey/antsy that yr. Like it was a bad thing to be good that yr...as if picking 14th was that much worse than 5 or 6th? Who rather would you have drafted that yr? Marcus Smart, Exum, Gordon ? Damn, we end up with Warren.

Bottom line is Ws vs Ls. You guys seem to be going down the path that next yr we should suck too. You might be OK with that, but it could cost McDoubleDown his job.
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Re: Trade Discussion 

Post#1580 » by AtheJ415 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:04 am

Sunsdeuce wrote:@jcsuns, your 100% correct.

Bottom line, if your not winning, your not winning. People can quote all this stuff that Ryan is good at or bad at. This is a results driven sport (just like the NFL or any other major sport). If your product isn't winning games, your not successful.

Right now Ryan's results suck. He's has a few good draft picks but that don't really mean much in a business where winning is all that matters. I mean The way things are going under Ryan, I see Ronnie Price as an interim coach in 3 or 4 years.

@sunsbum I really like what Len can offer. But I see two things that have crippled his potential. 1) obviously injuries. 2) Tyson Chandler. His presence causes Len to have sporadic playing time this hindering Len's development. If it was me in the front office, instead of coddling Markieff and making him the "focus" of the offense, I would have had Len take that role. I mean we suck anyway, might as well see what Len really has.


As for NAV....your never ending paragraphs tend to be a bit to long and quite frankly are annoying. That's why I don't respond to your posts. Make your point and move on. You harp and harp and harp and harp about the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again.


My last thought on Ryan: Ryan has some good ingredients In The cupboard but his cooking sucks right now.


It's not that simple though. Young teams simply don't win in this league. Despite what many think, we are an incredibly young team. And we were a team that needed to get younger to ultimately reach our goal. We had 0 chance of reaching our goal going forward if we didn't start that movement, and so to claim that winning immediately is what quantifies success is misguided to me. What we've done as far as reloading via the draft won't show its real results for probably another 5 years. To sit here and complain about this season's results given the age of the team and Bledsoe's injuries ignores what is even close to realistic given the opportunities this GM had.

Rebuilding is a long-term process. The results many seem to be expecting are beyond my comprehension given the starting hand that was dealt.

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