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Portland - 2016 Offseason

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Wizenheimer
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#41 » by Wizenheimer » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:07 am

Masterfully wrote:The lux tax threshold is indeed the important figure. It will surely go up, but even if it doesn't 9 players for $16M is realistic. The Cavs payroll this year is $105M, yet they have 6 players totalling about $9M in cap space at the end of their bench. You are gonna have some low paid vets and Montero/Alexander level rookies holding down spots. And you could leave the 15th spot open.


you're ignoring the fact that the Cavs just paid Portland a 1st round pick to take a 10 million player off their hands and ease their tax burden; And those 6 players actually are at 12.5 million rather then 9 million; And that The Cavs are buying 13 players for 105 million while the Blazers are only buying 6

more important, in the scenario you describe, Portland would be paying Lillard-CJ-Crabbe 60 million/year; meanwhile, Cleveland is paying Lebron-Irving-Love 57 million, 3 million less. And that Cleveland trio has 18 all-star games and 4 MVP's; that's a lot easier to justify then paying the Blazer trio
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#42 » by Masterfully » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:17 am

I'm not ignoring anything. That Cavs team is also operating under the current $70M cap and tax threshold. And yes, I accidentally included Mozgov. I meant to say 5 players making about $7.5M. I'm illustrating how even a high dollar roster can have numerous bargain contracts to round things out.

I guess I don't understand your logic. Are you saying Portland should let Crabbe walk to leave space for other free agents? Makes no sense when we know Portland isn't going to land any big free agents. Or are you saying that Portland should let Crabbe walk so they can always try to stay ~$40M under the cap? I guess if you're just trying to make money that would work, but I think fans will eventually walk away.

As I said before, it's not ideal, but it is POSSIBLE for Portland to keep Dame and CJ and four other $10-$15M players.
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#43 » by Blazinaway » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:01 pm

well if Harkless can maintain this recent significant improvement in play the rest of the year his RFA situation becomes interesting as well - what might he get offered? If Aminu got 7.5 mil per, with the big cap increase what might Hark get IF he sustains a good level of play?
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#44 » by Downtown » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Hypothetical question. If the team keeps playing like they are and surprise everyone by making the playoffs and reaching around the number 6 or 7 position and show that the chemistry is great and this young group can grow together, and Olshey decides he wants to keep as many of them together as possible and re-signs Crabbe, Harkless, and Henderson, what then, and who would they target in free agency?

In this scenario I don't see a crowded house but what free agent steps in and takes over, or how do they then convince any free agent that there's an opportunity to be a starter? The backcourt would have Lillard, McCollum, and Henderson and Crabbe. The small forward spot would be Aminu, Crabbe, and Harkless. Power forwards are Vonleh, Davis, plus Harkless and Aminu. And centre they have Plumlee, Leonard, and Davis. Any way you put the combos together that's a 10 man rotation.

I said at the beginning of the season that this year is an open audition for Olshey to decide who stays and who goes. But I think his job is getting more difficult with how everyone's been playing, save for Leonard.

It's going to be tough to say let our free agents go to open up spots for other upgrade free agents but if there's no clear upgrade player at the same price as your own then what?

My own thought at the moment is for Olshey to perhaps work a trade at the draft with the assets of Aminu, Davis, Vonleh, and Plumlee as the only ones they have besides Lillard and McCollum, but those guys were just brought in last year and at such good contracts that I don't know if Olshey would shake things up unless it was a clear winner deal, especially given that all those guys are playing up to their potentials.

At most I could see them trying to consolidate a couple players into one better one, and go for a mid tier centre that is more of a defensive type such as an Ezili or Mahini, or the like. But I won't be surprised if Olshey trys to keep as many of the free agents and go from there with maybe one new face.

I think he does have to decide which of Leonard, Crabbe, Henderson, and Harkless have more value to the team going forward and weigh that against the cost of keeping them. That might be his biggest job in the offseason. Right now they're all(well almost all) playing well. But I think once the real fight for he playoffs begins, and hopefully then going into the playoffs, the cream will rise to the top and the picture will become clearer.
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#45 » by Wizenheimer » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:56 pm

Masterfully wrote:Are you saying Portland should let Crabbe walk to leave space for other free agents?

As I said before, it's not ideal, but it is POSSIBLE for Portland to keep Dame and CJ and four other $10-$15M players.


no, I haven't said Portland should just "let Crabbe walk", But if he gets a 15 million/year offer sheet, they should sure think about letting him walk.....and you just moved the goal-posts. Before you were saying four 15 million/year players....now it's four 10-15 million/year players. That introduces a pretty wide range....85 million to 105 million, and that 20 million gap allows a lot more flexibility. But that's not the scenario I replied to

Crabbe at 15 million/year as a backup SG? That's too much money IMO, even in the era of expanded TV revenue and larger salary cap. I would suspect that a reason we heard nothing about Henderson being shopped is because the Blazer front office wanted to keep him as insurance in case Crabbe does get a massive offer. I'd much rather have Henderson at 8 million/year then Crabbe at 15 million year
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#46 » by Masterfully » Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:11 pm

I was looking back on RunPDX's post. I thought he said 4 players at $10-15 million, but he actually said 3-4 players at $15M.

As far as Crabbe's price tag, I think about his replacement cost. Would it cost $14 million to go out and find a similar young player? If so doesn't it make more sense to just keep Crabbe? It's definitely going to be an interesting summer to follow.

My main feeling is this, in a market where everyone has $$$ to spend you need to keep all of your assets. The pain of overpaying to keep a player is less than the pain of having nobody available to replace them after they leave.

Edit: One more note, after watching Aldridge and friends walk away last summer I suspect management will be slight clingy with the players they have left.
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#47 » by Wizenheimer » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:53 pm

Masterfully wrote:As far as Crabbe's price tag, I think about his replacement cost. Would it cost $14 million to go out and find a similar young player? If so doesn't it make more sense to just keep Crabbe? It's definitely going to be an interesting summer to follow.


that's one way to look at it

another way, one that I think may be more practical, is asking is it better to have Crabbe at 15 million, or both Henderson & Harkless for the same 15 million? I don't believe what Crabbe does is so rare and valuable it can't be replaced at less money, especially if he does get an offer sheet in the 15 million range. If he's offered 10 million, then of course the dynamic changes.

The big problem for Portland is that they have several players due rookie extensions over a 1 year period and rookie extensions are almost always expensive. And these extensions won't be based upon the current cap but on the higher caps so Portland gets no discount margin for sliding from the old to new salary caps. Only Davis and Aminu carry contracts like that

My main feeling is this, in a market where everyone has $$$ to spend you need to keep all of your assets. The pain of overpaying to keep a player is less than the pain of having nobody available to replace them after they leave.


I don't strongly disagree but there is a huge mitigating factor in that view; that being that players freshly signed to bloated contracts are no longer assets. Their value drops close to zero, if not below. For instance, At the end of last season, Meyers Leonard could have been considered an asset. But if Olshey had signed him to that rumored 4 year/60 million deal, he sure as hell wouldn't be an asset anymore. He'd be a major liability that restricted Portland's options and flexibility. In other words, the pain you see in letting players walk can easily be less then the pain of having several bloated contracts on a mediocre team

it's a sliding scale obviously. Crabbe at 15 million/year would have more value then Meyers at 15 million, but I'd say Crabbe would have little to no positive as an asset until at least a couple of years had run off the contract

there's another component here too, and it's why I tended to reject your Cleveland comparison: that Cleveland team made it to the finals last year and lost 4 games to 2 while missing Irving and Love...and they will very likely be the #1 seed in the east this season, and may very well make it back to the finals

meanwhile, the Blazer team you seem to be willing to spend same amount of salary on may very well finish the season under .500. It may even end up a lottery team....that's still a distinct possibility. That's just not the kind of roster that anybody should be considering worth breaking the cap for, let alone crossing the luxury tax threshold.

you will probably get your wish though. As I've said before, I'm concerned that Olshey is fairly determined to re-sign all his RFA's, including Meyers
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#48 » by a_sensei » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:44 pm

Out of curiosity, what does the MLE project to be once the cap expands? This would give me more context when it comes to hypothetical contracts.
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#49 » by Masterfully » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:08 pm

I believe around $9-10 million
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#50 » by Wizenheimer » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:21 pm

a_sensei wrote:Out of curiosity, what does the MLE project to be once the cap expands? This would give me more context when it comes to hypothetical contracts.


it's 5.464 million this season with a 70 million cap

if the cap goes to 90 million next year and the MLE goes up proportionally, it would be 7.025 million. That would mean that a max, 4 year MLE would average about 7.5 million, not 9-10 million

the thing is, I'm not sure the MLE will increase at the same rate....it might already be set within the CBA framework at a lower increase, year to year. For instance, in 2012-13 the MLE was a flat 5 million dollars under a 58.044 million cap. That's about 8.6% of the cap. This year, the cap is 70 million, so between 2012-13 and this year the cap increased 20.5%; in the same time frame, the MLE only increased 9.3%, and is now 7.8% of the cap, so it's losing ground every year

both RealGM and the CBA FAQ seem to imply the MLE is fixed for the life of the CBA:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q25

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/salary_cap

it may be that the MLE is becoming a less relevant gauge of what a salary should be on rookie extensions, or any salary for that matter. But for extensions, it might be better to think in terms of a percentage of the maximum eligible salary for a player. IIRC, Batum got over 80% of the max; Terrance Ross, got about 70% of max. Parsons and Tobias Harris got max deals. Kanter got a max deal; Brandon Knight got about 88% of the max; Alec Burks, an injury prone player got around 63% of max; Iman Shumpert got about 60% of max.

but all those players got their contracts when there were only a half dozen teams with sufficient cap-space to pay them, and there was about 1/3 of the total league-wide cap-space there will be this coming off-season

expecting somebody like Crabbe to get less then 60% of max may be unrealistic....it may be unrealistic to expect less then 70-75% of max. Next year, the max for Crabbe-Harkless-Leonard will be 21-22 million. 60% of that is over 12 million; 75% of max would be at least 15 million. And keep in mind, that's just the first year salary. If the Max next year is 21.5 million, and Crabbe gets a contract of 70% of his max, then his average salary in a 5 year deal would be over 17 million a year; if he gets 60% of max, then his average salary would be 14.84 million. In order to only average 12 million a year, Crabbe would have to get about 50% of max.
Does that seem likely?

the bigger question is CJ, IMO. His max salary may be right around 25 million. If he gets 85% of max (very possible), then his average salary over a 5 year deal would be about 24.4 million

as I've said before I could be all wrong about this and the Blazer players will sign for considerably less then comparable players have entering their rookie extensions. But history doesn't make that a realistic outcome. I tend to think people are really underestimating what's headed Portland's way in terms of keeping all their players. I mean, will Crabbe sign for less of the max then Iman Shumpert? Will CJ sign for less then Brandon Knight?
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#51 » by Masterfully » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:59 pm

Right, if the cap expands to $110 and the MLE stays at 7.8% then the MLE would be $8.58 million. Not $9 million. My bad.
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#52 » by a_sensei » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:30 pm

Thanks Wiz and Masterfully, it was too hectic this morning to use the google machine for that research.
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#53 » by Wizenheimer » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:34 am

Masterfully wrote:Right, if the cap expands to $110 and the MLE stays at 7.8% then the MLE would be $8.58 million. Not $9 million. My bad.


like I said, if you read the CBA FAQ, it sure looks like the MLE has already been set for every season in the current CBA:

NON-TAXPAYER MID-LEVEL EXCEPTION -- This exception is available only when a team is below the "apron" (i.e., not paying luxury tax, or less than $4 million above the tax line). This determination is made after the exception is used, so a team below the apron cannot use this exception if doing so takes it above the apron. It cannot be used by a team that has already used the Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception or the Room Mid-Level exception. It allows a team to sign any free agent to a contract with a starting salary up to the following amounts3:

Season First-year salary
2011-12 - $5.000 million
2012-13 - $5.000 million
2013-14 - $5.150 million
2014-15 - $5.305 million
2015-16 - $5.464 million
2016-17 - $5.628 million
2017-18 - $5.797 million
2018-19 - $5.971 million
2019-20 - $6.150 million
2020-21 - $6.335 million


notice the '3' at the end of the explanation. That's a footnote reference. Footnote 3 says:

3: In the previous CBA the Mid-Level exception was tied to the average salary. This is no longer the case.


that sure seems to imply that those MLE values are locked into the CBA and will not track the rise of the cap. In fact, if you do some quick math, the increase in the CBA is only 5000 dollars more each year then the previous year's increase. LOL...the owners sure slipped a rusty musket into the player's cart during the last CBA negotiation on that one. Perhaps that's one reason why the players are threatening to opt out of the current CBA in 2017

anyway, that's why I suggested the MLE was no longer a good gauge to use to judge other contracts. I used a percentage of a max salary but the same relationship would work if it was a percentage of the cap
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#54 » by whatchaknow » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:06 am

There is no way someone offers crabbe 15 mil a year.. I don't see any comparabl player with one year of meaningful minutes that has gotten an offer sheet like that
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#55 » by Jsun947 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:19 am

I've heard that some GMs and agents are predicting Crabbe will get around 9-11 per in FA. Numbers on Leonard & Harkless are uncertain.

If Harkless keeps playing like he has recently though he might be in for a good summer as well.
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#56 » by Norm2953 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:28 am

Crabbe needs to have a consistent production off the bench in order to get that $15 Million
as a RFA. I think its likely Portland will sit back and allow the market to set the price for their
RFA and will operate as if they really have that $41 Million in cap space. The goal is to seek
an upgrade in talent for next years roster.

I'm skeptical Portland will be in the market for the max contract players but I would be
pleased if they could add 2-3 players who are better than our RFA's for roughly the
same price.
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#57 » by Wizenheimer » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:42 am

Jsun947 wrote:I've heard that some GMs and agents are predicting Crabbe will get around 9-11 per in FA. Numbers on Leonard & Harkless are uncertain.

If Harkless keeps playing like he has recently though he might be in for a good summer as well.


that would be great for Portland if that was all he was offered

he will be RFA so any team bidding on him would know they'd have to bid a lot in order to keep Portland from matching. And since Portland has a lot of cap-space, teams might be much less likely to invest the time and effort to go after Crabbe believing it would take an insane offer to get him

personally, I don't think he's worth more then 10 million and even that seems a bit high. I just don't trust all GM's to show restraint, especially when most have a lot of money to spend. All it takes is one David Kahn and out comes an insane offer sheet. Or some GM smart enough to guess what the max is that Olshey would pay for Crabbe, and willing to repay Olshey for the Kanter offer. Next year, the salary floor will be about 82-83 million, and right now, not counting cap-holds, 25 of 30 teams are below that floor
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#58 » by Soulyss » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:06 am

From looking at the thread so far, I guess the question is: If you have to choose to spend 15 million a year... do you throw it at:

Henderson + Harkless

OR

Crabbe

Honestly, I think I would choose at this point Henderson and Harkless.
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#59 » by red_power » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:22 am

Wizenheimer wrote:
Masterfully wrote:more important, in the scenario you describe, Portland would be paying Lillard-CJ-Crabbe 60 million/year; meanwhile, Cleveland is paying Lebron-Irving-Love 57 million, 3 million less. And that Cleveland trio has 18 all-star games and 4 MVP's; that's a lot easier to justify then paying the Blazer trio

57 mln? LeBron will get "highest paid NBA player ever" award soon
"Fly forward despite the fog" (c) Kobe Bryant 1978-2020
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Re: Portland - 2016 Offseason 

Post#60 » by Jsun947 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:32 am

How much is the versatility of our roster worth and how much does it contribute to us winning? We do have the ability to match up and create a lot of different types of units.

I know this is over simplistic but whatever

C
Pick & Roll & Facilitator Plumlee
Spacing Leonard
Offensive Rebounding, Energy, Scoring Davis

PF
Athletic Small Ball Defender - Aminu
Athletic Offensive Small Ball - Harkless
Spacing - Vonleh
Offensive Rebounding, Energy, Scoring Davis

SF
Athletic Defender - Aminu
Spacing - Crabbe
Athletic Offensive - Harkless & Henderson

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