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Bomba Navarro wrote:
Either way I agree that it's a coach's job to make the most out of the group he has, and Fred hasn't done that so far.
Scottie Pippen's response to whom he would pick for his running mate, Michael or LeBron: "That's a dumbass question. I've never done anything with LeBron. I wouldn't take LeBron to the movies."
Bomba Navarro wrote:TheStig wrote:Your hypothetical is a bit off base. You build your system around your players strengths. If Greg Popovich magically showed up tomorrow to coach the Bulls, he wouldn't be implementing motion and pace on a grind it out group.
People act like Jimmy is the hold up in Hoiball. He's not. Gasol, Rose, Noah, Gibson, Brooks and Snell are not Hoiball players. They either hold the ball too much or aren't good quick decision makers.
Coaching is about getting the most out of the group you have. Hoiberg hasn't done that. And frankly doesn't have the reputation to come in and demand respect from all stars to get them to change their game. Respect is earned and not easily given.
Very good post.
In fact, out of all the players you named, Butler is probably the one who could adapt the best to Hoiball if Fred got him to buy in.
Either way I agree that it's a coach's job to make the most out of the group he has, and Fred hasn't done that so far. If Hoiball doesn't suit the group you have, try something else, but don't let players run the team.
Shill wrote:Bomba Navarro wrote:
Either way I agree that it's a coach's job to make the most out of the group he has, and Fred hasn't done that so far.
Why would you fire a grimy defensive coach, then hire an offensive coach and expect him to run things exactly the same as the previous coach?
Every coach has a core philosophy and you have to know that going in. If you hire Larry Brown, you have to know you aren't going to play at a breakneck pace.
suckfish wrote:Lucas. You. Inside. Me. Slow. But. Fast.
Shill wrote:TheStig wrote:Shill wrote:
The Bulls have to make some determinations:
1. What style do we want to play?
It seems they want to play with motion and pace, e.g. Hoiball. That's a logical decision.
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2. Do we have the personnel to play this style?
If Jimmy won't play Hoiball, that brings up another dilemma.
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3. Will Jimmy buy into a motion offense under a different coach?
If the answer is yes (i.e. he simply doesn't respect Hoiberg), then MAYBE you consider replacing Hoiberg. If the answer is no...
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4. Should we build our program around Jimmy playing a ton of iso-ball?
If no, then you may as well trade him.
Your hypothetical is a bit off base. You build your system around your players strengths. If Greg Popovich magically showed up tomorrow to coach the Bulls, he wouldn't be implementing motion and pace on a grind it out group.
People act like Jimmy is the hold up in Hoiball. He's not. Gasol, Rose, Noah, Gibson, Brooks and Snell are not Hoiball players. They either hold the ball too much or aren't good quick decision makers.
Coaching is about getting the most out of the group you have. Hoiberg hasn't done that. And frankly doesn't have the reputation to come in and demand respect from all stars to get them to change their game. Respect is earned and not easily given.
But that's exactly what Pop did. The Spurs were a grind-it-out team that dumped the ball into the post.
And the Bulls had a grind-it-out coach, but they ultimately decided to move on.
Bomba Navarro wrote:Shill wrote:Bomba Navarro wrote:
Either way I agree that it's a coach's job to make the most out of the group he has, and Fred hasn't done that so far.
Why would you fire a grimy defensive coach, then hire an offensive coach and expect him to run things exactly the same as the previous coach?
Every coach has a core philosophy and you have to know that going in. If you hire Larry Brown, you have to know you aren't going to play at a breakneck pace.
In my opinion, if a coach can't adapt to the team he has then he's probably not that good.
Unless you think this is a transition season and bring in a new coach to lay the basis of a new offense before you actually get him the players to successfully run that kind of offense. If that were the case, I'd fine with sacrificing this season for the sake of getting a jump on work, as I don't think this team can be a contender no matter what you run. Problem is, you know, that when everybody is healthy we're neither running Thibsball nor Hoiball, i.e. we're not laying the basis of anything and on top of that we're sucking ass.
Scottie Pippen's response to whom he would pick for his running mate, Michael or LeBron: "That's a dumbass question. I've never done anything with LeBron. I wouldn't take LeBron to the movies."
Shill wrote:Bomba Navarro wrote:Shill wrote:
Why would you fire a grimy defensive coach, then hire an offensive coach and expect him to run things exactly the same as the previous coach?
Every coach has a core philosophy and you have to know that going in. If you hire Larry Brown, you have to know you aren't going to play at a breakneck pace.
In my opinion, if a coach can't adapt to the team he has then he's probably not that good.
Unless you think this is a transition season and bring in a new coach to lay the basis of a new offense before you actually get him the players to successfully run that kind of offense. If that were the case, I'd fine with sacrificing this season for the sake of getting a jump on work, as I don't think this team can be a contender no matter what you run. Problem is, you know, that when everybody is healthy we're neither running Thibsball nor Hoiball, i.e. we're not laying the basis of anything and on top of that we're sucking ass.
The GM and coach need to be on the same page about the team they want. Coaching to the team's strengths in the interim might be the way to go, but ultimately you have to BUILD toward the team you want.
If we're committed to playing Hoiball, it will be reflected in our drafting and FA signings.
Chi town wrote:Bomba Navarro wrote:TheStig wrote:Your hypothetical is a bit off base. You build your system around your players strengths. If Greg Popovich magically showed up tomorrow to coach the Bulls, he wouldn't be implementing motion and pace on a grind it out group.
People act like Jimmy is the hold up in Hoiball. He's not. Gasol, Rose, Noah, Gibson, Brooks and Snell are not Hoiball players. They either hold the ball too much or aren't good quick decision makers.
Coaching is about getting the most out of the group you have. Hoiberg hasn't done that. And frankly doesn't have the reputation to come in and demand respect from all stars to get them to change their game. Respect is earned and not easily given.
Very good post.
In fact, out of all the players you named, Butler is probably the one who could adapt the best to Hoiball if Fred got him to buy in.
Either way I agree that it's a coach's job to make the most out of the group he has, and Fred hasn't done that so far. If Hoiball doesn't suit the group you have, try something else, but don't let players run the team.
Two good posts. Problem is I think Jimmy has gone "Hollywood as Hell."
TheStig wrote:Chi town wrote:Bomba Navarro wrote:Very good post.
In fact, out of all the players you named, Butler is probably the one who could adapt the best to Hoiball if Fred got him to buy in.
Either way I agree that it's a coach's job to make the most out of the group he has, and Fred hasn't done that so far. If Hoiball doesn't suit the group you have, try something else, but don't let players run the team.
Two good posts. Problem is I think Jimmy has gone "Hollywood as Hell."
How has Jimmy gone Hollywood as Hell? Hollywood as Hell players don't ask to be coached harder. I think someones been drinking too much of the Bulls PR kool aid.
TheStig wrote:The Spurs didn't fire a well respected head coach and hire a brand new newbie that tried to change their game on day 1 and be their bff.
See what I wrote about coaching and you'll understand why this failed miserably. Unless you think today's Bulls are a success.
Scottie Pippen's response to whom he would pick for his running mate, Michael or LeBron: "That's a dumbass question. I've never done anything with LeBron. I wouldn't take LeBron to the movies."
TheStig wrote:How are they committed to Hoiball if they brought back the same exact group of grind it out allstars? Let's be honest, they made Thibs the scapegoat on why this team didn't work and now it blew up in their face.
Scottie Pippen's response to whom he would pick for his running mate, Michael or LeBron: "That's a dumbass question. I've never done anything with LeBron. I wouldn't take LeBron to the movies."
TheStig wrote:Chi town wrote:Bomba Navarro wrote:Very good post.
In fact, out of all the players you named, Butler is probably the one who could adapt the best to Hoiball if Fred got him to buy in.
Either way I agree that it's a coach's job to make the most out of the group he has, and Fred hasn't done that so far. If Hoiball doesn't suit the group you have, try something else, but don't let players run the team.
Two good posts. Problem is I think Jimmy has gone "Hollywood as Hell."
How has Jimmy gone Hollywood as Hell? Hollywood as Hell players don't ask to be coached harder. I think someones been drinking too much of the Bulls PR kool aid.
Shill wrote:TheStig wrote:The Spurs didn't fire a well respected head coach and hire a brand new newbie that tried to change their game on day 1 and be their bff.
See what I wrote about coaching and you'll understand why this failed miserably. Unless you think today's Bulls are a success.
Rightly or wrongly the Bulls felt Thibs needed to go. They wanted to play a different style of offense.
Pretend you're Fred Hoiberg. Your expertise is as a motion offense coach. That's why you were hired. How would you go about implementing your system?
Fred hasn't been dictatorial about installing Hoiball. It's not like when Skiles game in to get rid of the Baby Bulls culture. I think he's essentially played to the team's strengths (more iso ball for Pau and our guards). The problem (at least for this season) is the spate of injuries.
I wouldn't classify Fred as a miserable failure already. That's unfair.
Shill wrote:TheStig wrote:How are they committed to Hoiball if they brought back the same exact group of grind it out allstars? Let's be honest, they made Thibs the scapegoat on why this team didn't work and now it blew up in their face.
We'll find out how committed they are moving forward. They probably thought all they needed was a quick "scheme change" to contend. BTW it's not easy to turn over the roster in one season. They gave it a shot with this group. It didn't work.
I'm very interested to see how they maneuver this off-season and the next.
Chi town wrote:TheStig wrote:Chi town wrote:
Two good posts. Problem is I think Jimmy has gone "Hollywood as Hell."
How has Jimmy gone Hollywood as Hell? Hollywood as Hell players don't ask to be coached harder. I think someones been drinking too much of the Bulls PR kool aid.
To not see the turn that Jimmy has made would be complete ignorance.
His "attempts" at leadership are well documented. He was barking about Thibs, publically called out his coach (who does that), and it's been reported that multiple players in the lockeroom don't follow him or appreciate his leadership.
On the court he said he has gone full on hero ball and his defense has really slipped.
Yes. Hollywood.
TheStig wrote:I'm not saying that Hoiberg is to fully blame. He was not put in a good situation. The front office didn't do him any favors.
That being said, he hasn't done well either. So that's his part of the puzzle.
That being said, you can't try to change the way guys play in if you're new. He should have only implemented some sets into his offense and tried to push the pace. He also should establish a hierarchy and set expectations and hold people to them. Judging by Jimmy's comments. He wasn't pushing people.
Scottie Pippen's response to whom he would pick for his running mate, Michael or LeBron: "That's a dumbass question. I've never done anything with LeBron. I wouldn't take LeBron to the movies."
TheStig wrote:Who said anything about a roster turnover? Their entire rotation is exactly the same. That's saying that Thib's was the problem. And clearly he wasn't the one holding them back from a ring.
Scottie Pippen's response to whom he would pick for his running mate, Michael or LeBron: "That's a dumbass question. I've never done anything with LeBron. I wouldn't take LeBron to the movies."
Shill wrote:TheStig wrote:I'm not saying that Hoiberg is to fully blame. He was not put in a good situation. The front office didn't do him any favors.
That being said, he hasn't done well either. So that's his part of the puzzle.
That being said, you can't try to change the way guys play in if you're new. He should have only implemented some sets into his offense and tried to push the pace. He also should establish a hierarchy and set expectations and hold people to them. Judging by Jimmy's comments. He wasn't pushing people.
But we haven't gone full-on Hoiball. It seems like he's doing exactly what you said.
Fred's a new coach with a veteran team. There's a feeling out process. If he had come in Semper Fi, they might've tuned him out. Besides, Jimmy says a lot of things. He questioned Thibs at times, too.
TheStig wrote:He tried to implement the whole package in the preseason and it failed.
Exactly, you don't hire a newbie coach for a fully vet team. This is exactly what happens. But he didn't do himself any favors either.
I don't recall Jimmy ever calling out Thibs like this. Infact, I don't really recall Jimmy questioning Thibs. I could have missed it.
Scottie Pippen's response to whom he would pick for his running mate, Michael or LeBron: "That's a dumbass question. I've never done anything with LeBron. I wouldn't take LeBron to the movies."
