Let's talk about Elfrid

[seeingstars]

Ding Ding Ding.

You are forced to overinflate the value of Smith and Vuc pick and pops because that's all you can do. We have this horrible self perpetuating issue of having to play Vuc with Payton to give Payton a release valve on offense, but then you're stuck with Vuc in the middle on D. These guys are like 2 bad parasites for our team, they may seem to help each other, but it's at the expense of the whole team. I've been saying this for a while, but we can't build a team with the idea that these guys are our cornerstones until they fix those glaring problems. We'll bang our head against the wall doing so and peak at a 7-8 seed.

I'm not saying we need a Vuc/Elfrid fire sale, but we cannot be married to them as untradeable and we absolutely make other roster decisions based on their fit with Elf/Vuc.

Would you dare to say that Elf lead the team home only after vuc his the bench?

Huh?

Are you saying that those final 5 minutes of a game against the Philadelphia 76ers disproves what most of the advanced stats over the course of the season have shown to be big giant red flags for the magic?

No im asking if that production is linked to elf playing better ball when vuc isn't out there

[seeingstars]

This season has been a season of learning and pruning. Pruning the bad habits and learning good ones. I think each player has made at least marginal progress in their game. We also learned about the toughness of the NBA schedule. Our team learned you can kill your season in a month if you dont stay locked in and pull out wins. They will forever remember January for the rest of their careers and hopefully it will be a driving force.

Im not worried about this team in the least bit.

[monchief]

Would you dare to say that Elf lead the team home only after vuc his the bench?

Huh?

Are you saying that those final 5 minutes of a game against the Philadelphia 76ers disproves what most of the advanced stats over the course of the season have shown to be big giant red flags for the magic?

No im asking if that production is linked to elf playing better ball when vuc isn't out there

What production? I'm confused as to what you're referencing.

[seeingstars]

Huh?

Are you saying that those final 5 minutes of a game against the Philadelphia 76ers disproves what most of the advanced stats over the course of the season have shown to be big giant red flags for the magic?

No im asking if that production is linked to elf playing better ball when vuc isn't out there

What production? I'm confused as to what you're referencing.

Elf lead the team home last game

[monchief]

No im asking if that production is linked to elf playing better ball when vuc isn't out there

What production? I'm confused as to what you're referencing.

Elf lead the team home last game

Right. Again, you're going to let a 5 minute stretch against a team who is actively tanking and who's PG claimed off waivers has roasted Elfrid convince you that he's fine, despite 2 seasons of data saying he's one of the worst starting PGs in the league?

Even bad players have good stretches sometimes. Ever heard of Sundiata Gaines? Is Terrence Ross great because he scored 51 one time?

[seeingstars]

What production? I'm confused as to what you're referencing.

Elf lead the team home last game

Right. Again, you're going to let a 5 minute stretch against a team who is actively tanking and who's PG claimed off waivers has roasted Elfrid convince you that he's fine, despite 2 seasons of data saying he's one of the worst starting PGs in the league?

Even bad players have good stretches sometimes. Ever heard of Sundiata Gaines? Is Terrence Ross great because he scored 51 one time?

My goodness. It troubles me that you have lost belief in EP as our starting pg of the future. I hope it isn't true.

Its well known it takes most points 3 years to get fully used to the NBA speed. I think Elf is progressing nicely regardless of what advanced analytics say. EP will figure things out as will most of our young players. <2 years is far too soon to write off a player of his talent and potential. He can pass the ball well, see over defenses, push the tempo, drive the lane at will, and hes getting much better at finishing at the rim and hitting wide open 3s. Elfrids going to be just fine.

[SOUL]

Every post of his has been like that towards him.. Sundiata **** Gaines give me a break.

[SOUL]

I also agree with not thinking Elfrid has been terrible this year for what he's gone through - a revamp of his shot, a different offensive scheme that isn't built around the ball being in his hands, injuries to both ankles, Skiles yanking him and not getting to play through a bad stretch or being benched by proxy because of the other starters, and being a 2nd year player in the league which people forget all of the time since he had an impressive rookie season.

He does need to keep improving in many areas, mainly FT shooting, aggressiveness and working defense with Vuc. They need to talk while on the floor.

But I've thought a lot of games this season he has looked like our most impressive player - the Sweater Vests coincide with that. He can break people down 1 v 1 very easily. Dude has had more oops the last 5 games than all season because he's been handling it more.

When we ask him to pass it to Dipo or Fournier after a curl and he's forced to play off of the ball, of course he and other players with his skillset are not going to look good. He's young and he's going to be fine.

[Blue_and_Whte]

I also agree with not thinking Elfrid has been terrible this year for what he's gone through - a revamp of his shot, a different offensive scheme that isn't built around the ball being in his hands, injuries to both ankles, Skiles yanking him and not getting to play through a bad stretch or being benched by proxy because of the other starters, and being a 2nd year player in the league which people forget all of the time since he had an impressive rookie season.

He does need to keep improving in many areas, mainly FT shooting, aggressiveness and working defense with Vuc. They need to talk while on the floor.

But I've thought a lot of games this season he has looked like our most impressive player - the Sweater Vests coincide with that. He can break people down 1 v 1 very easily. Dude has had more oops the last 5 games than all season because he's been handling it more.

When we ask him to pass it to Dipo or Fournier after a curl and he's forced to play off of the ball, of course he and other players with his skillset are not going to look good. He's young and he's going to be fine.

Payton isn't even close to being the worst staring PG in the NBA that's just fallacy. I'll even add to your list is the fact that he's playing with a young core which makes what he's done even more impressive. However I don't feel sorry for "what he's gone through". Great players adjust and continue to play through adversities using them to get better. I'm glad he's playing through an injury, for a tough coach who's teaching him accountability, and in a system that doesn't cater to him. HE needs to adjust to the game not the other way around.

I knock him for his defense because I know how much better he can be on that side of the ball. Its more than just working on his aggressiveness and talking to Vooch, I think the kid has a switch that's often times in the off position and he isn't good enough (yet) to play that way. He has got to be aggressive as much as possible because we are so much better as a team when he's forcing the issue. That's not anyone's fault but his own. As much as people knock Dipo's scoring, he plays with endless energy on defense and creates scoring opportunities for himself and others by playing defense. We shouldn't be allowing PG/SG's to score on us with how good both those guys are defensively.

In terms of trajectory, everyone says Rondo which I can get on board with but Rondo wasn't as good as Payton in his rookie year and I think Payton, when his switch is on, is one of the better PG's at not giving up on plays, if that were a stat.

[MagicStarwipe]

Interestingly, Elfrid is 23rd in the league in PPP on isolation plays out of players that have had 40 or more iso plays. Vucevic is 21st. Elfrid is also 3rd in FG%, 8th in eFG% and 12th in score frequency.

Or we could just keep on going on about how much he sucks. Actually let me just shut up. I'm sure this too can be spun into another reason why Elfrid sucks so much.

Our poor offense - Elfrid's fault.
Our poor defense - Elfrid's fault.
Vuc's defensive shortcomings - Elfrid's fault.
Vuc settling for too many long 2's - Elfrid's fault. Wait... but isn't Vuc touching the paint more and being a lot more aggressive offensively lately? I was literally told he couldn't go in the paint because Elfrid can't shoot, yet he's showing all this aggression now getting in the paint and Elfrid is still on the court with him.
Vuc being statistically one of the worst roll men in the league - Elfrid's fault because he sucks at pick and roll. Yet Dewayne Deadhands is statistically one of the best roll men in the league, and guess who 2/3's of his pick and roll's are run with? Elfrid Payton.

This is not a Vuc hate post. I've been fairly happy with his effort for the most part lately. This is not a "everybody has to love Elfrid" post. It's just a keep an open mind post. Be a little more forgiving of our second year PG post. An understand that the circumstances have not 100% been there for Elfrid to thrive this season post. And you don't have to hate on the kid just because you don't like some posters that happen to be supporters of his.

[BaunceyChillups]

I think it's time to move on. Can't shoot, can't finish, can't make free throws and his defensive effort is not consistent. Whatever minuscule gains he makes aren't really worth it if he's dragging the rest of the team down so much. Maybe if it was early in a rebuild but the team is about to throw down some big bucks, clearly signaling a desire to be competitive soon.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Interestingly, Elfrid is 23rd in the league in PPP on isolation plays out of players that have had 40 or more iso plays. Vucevic is 21st. Elfrid is also 3rd in FG%, 8th in eFG% and 12th in score frequency.

Or we could just keep on going on about how much he sucks. Actually let me just shut up. I'm sure this too can be spun into another reason why Elfrid sucks so much.

Our poor offense - Elfrid's fault.
Our poor defense - Elfrid's fault.
Vuc's defensive shortcomings - Elfrid's fault.
Vuc settling for too many long 2's - Elfrid's fault. Wait... but isn't Vuc touching the paint more and being a lot more aggressive offensively lately? I was literally told he couldn't go in the paint because Elfrid can't shoot, yet he's showing all this aggression now getting in the paint and Elfrid is still on the court with him.
Vuc being statistically one of the worst roll men in the league - Elfrid's fault because he sucks at pick and roll. Yet Dewayne Deadhands is statistically one of the best roll men in the league, and guess who 2/3's of his pick and roll's are run with? Elfrid Payton.

This is not a Vuc hate post. I've been fairly happy with his effort for the most part lately. This is not a "everybody has to love Elfrid" post. It's just a keep an open mind post. Be a little more forgiving of our second year PG post. An understand that the circumstances have not 100% been there for Elfrid to thrive this season post. And you don't have to hate on the kid just because you don't like some posters that happen to be supporters of his.

Nobody said he sucks. Stop crying. Jesus

[ezzzp]

Interestingly, Elfrid is 23rd in the league in PPP on isolation plays out of players that have had 40 or more iso plays. Vucevic is 21st. Elfrid is also 3rd in FG%, 8th in eFG% and 12th in score frequency.

Or we could just keep on going on about how much he sucks. Actually let me just shut up. I'm sure this too can be spun into another reason why Elfrid sucks so much.

Our poor offense - Elfrid's fault.
Our poor defense - Elfrid's fault.
Vuc's defensive shortcomings - Elfrid's fault.
Vuc settling for too many long 2's - Elfrid's fault. Wait... but isn't Vuc touching the paint more and being a lot more aggressive offensively lately? I was literally told he couldn't go in the paint because Elfrid can't shoot, yet he's showing all this aggression now getting in the paint and Elfrid is still on the court with him.
Vuc being statistically one of the worst roll men in the league - Elfrid's fault because he sucks at pick and roll. Yet Dewayne Deadhands is statistically one of the best roll men in the league, and guess who 2/3's of his pick and roll's are run with? Elfrid Payton.

This is not a Vuc hate post. I've been fairly happy with his effort for the most part lately. This is not a "everybody has to love Elfrid" post. It's just a keep an open mind post. Be a little more forgiving of our second year PG post. An understand that the circumstances have not 100% been there for Elfrid to thrive this season post. And you don't have to hate on the kid just because you don't like some posters that happen to be supporters of his.

hmmm...and btw I am an EP fan, just think he's got a ways to go before we mint him as a legit starter right now. On nearly all playoff teams he's the back up PG.

[seeingstars]

Interestingly, Elfrid is 23rd in the league in PPP on isolation plays out of players that have had 40 or more iso plays. Vucevic is 21st. Elfrid is also 3rd in FG%, 8th in eFG% and 12th in score frequency.

Or we could just keep on going on about how much he sucks. Actually let me just shut up. I'm sure this too can be spun into another reason why Elfrid sucks so much.

Our poor offense - Elfrid's fault.
Our poor defense - Elfrid's fault.
Vuc's defensive shortcomings - Elfrid's fault.
Vuc settling for too many long 2's - Elfrid's fault. Wait... but isn't Vuc touching the paint more and being a lot more aggressive offensively lately? I was literally told he couldn't go in the paint because Elfrid can't shoot, yet he's showing all this aggression now getting in the paint and Elfrid is still on the court with him.
Vuc being statistically one of the worst roll men in the league - Elfrid's fault because he sucks at pick and roll. Yet Dewayne Deadhands is statistically one of the best roll men in the league, and guess who 2/3's of his pick and roll's are run with? Elfrid Payton.

This is not a Vuc hate post. I've been fairly happy with his effort for the most part lately. This is not a "everybody has to love Elfrid" post. It's just a keep an open mind post. Be a little more forgiving of our second year PG post. An understand that the circumstances have not 100% been there for Elfrid to thrive this season post. And you don't have to hate on the kid just because you don't like some posters that happen to be supporters of his.

You forgot:

AG 2nd in the dunk contest- Elfs fault

[KillMonger]

Elf is too content pulling a where's waldo blending into the background, if he can't get past the mental block that's stopping him it's always going to be like this. It HAS to be mental because he has the physical

[monchief]

Elf is too content pulling a where's waldo blending into the background, if he can't get past the mental block that's stopping him it's always going to be like this. It HAS to be mental because he has the physical

It's more than mental. Elfrid is largely inconsistent on offense because he lacks the physical ability shoot well. Because he can't shoot (consistently), teams go under every screen. When teams go under screens, he can't drive. When he can't drive, he can't find a good passing lane because other defenders don't have to rotate. When he can't find a good passing lane, he has to simply pass it to the wing or shoot a bad shot.

It's really not rocket science to figure out why he disappears on offense. He has good vision, but if you aren't respected even slightly as a shooter, then you can't be an effective PG. And it's not Skiles fault. Skiles has been critical of our guards for not being able to beat a big on a switch. Skiles can't make the layups/floaters for him.