Would the Bulls 'reset' and trade Jimmy Butler this offseason ? What would Celtics need to give you?

[Chi town]

So if this trade goes down this summer...

Do you start Dougie at SG next to Crowder at SF and then let Crowder defend the best wing?

Do you run a lineup of Smart Dougie Crowder Niko for spacing, blend of O and D?

I am really high on Dunn at PG in the draft. Really like a Dunn Smart Dougie Crowder PG/Wing combo.

[TheStig]

Well yeah, I think that naturally happens when the FO undermines the coach. But regardless, they still mainly bought in and gave a damn when it counted. I just don't see that from this team.

But Fred came hyped up and fully backed and their buy in and intesnity fell off the cliff. That's why he's a flop.

Disagree. This team has the exact same habit of beating the contenders, then laying an egg against the bottom-feeders.

The biggest difference is injuries. Noah is done for the year, Niko has missed a ton, Rose had the mask and double vision for a long time, and Jimmy had the knee injury.

+1. We all knew this year was a wash and ultimately a year of transition into Hoiball.

We did? I seem to remember Gar Forman getting up on a stage after his triumph (and only) victory in firing Thibs and proclaiming this a championship caliber team. Not to mention most of the media picking us to be the second best team in the east.

They were so confident in their team, that they made no roster changes...... That doesn't sound like a transitional year. In a transitional year, you transition the players that aren't part of your future into ones that are.

[DarthDiggler69]

Disagree. This team has the exact same habit of beating the contenders, then laying an egg against the bottom-feeders.

The biggest difference is injuries. Noah is done for the year, Niko has missed a ton, Rose had the mask and double vision for a long time, and Jimmy had the knee injury.

+1. We all knew this year was a wash and ultimately a year of transition into Hoiball.

We did? I seem to remember Gar Forman getting up on a stage after his triumph (and only) victory in firing Thibs and proclaiming this a championship caliber team. Not to mention most of the media picking us to be the second best team in the east.

They were so confident in their team, that they made no roster changes...... That doesn't sound like a transitional year. In a transitional year, you transition the players that aren't part of your future into ones that are.

I dont think he was talking about management because we seem smarter than them, more likely speaking for many fans here because we all saw the flaws in last years team. This year is just a progression of those flaws. Unlike Thibs who played guys to win, Fred could not hide the flaws behind having a mandate to play the younger guys more minutes, which develops players quicker but also adds to the overall team dysfunction

[waffle]

If the bulls were offered a couple of high #1's and a player...? HUM

[TheStig]

+1. We all knew this year was a wash and ultimately a year of transition into Hoiball.

We did? I seem to remember Gar Forman getting up on a stage after his triumph (and only) victory in firing Thibs and proclaiming this a championship caliber team. Not to mention most of the media picking us to be the second best team in the east.

They were so confident in their team, that they made no roster changes...... That doesn't sound like a transitional year. In a transitional year, you transition the players that aren't part of your future into ones that are.

I dont think he was talking about management because we seem smarter than them, more likely speaking for many fans here because we all saw the flaws in last years team. This year is just a progression of those flaws last year since Fred could not hide the flaws behind playing the younger guys more minutes, which develops players quicker but also adds to the dysfunction

I don't know. Many people were talking about the fact that the players gave up on Thibs and that Fred has a system that would make us a good offensive team. People were expecting big things. I just think it lets management off the hook by just lowering expectations and forgetting what they said. Management afterall are the highly paid professionals. So they should know better

[DarthDiggler69]

If the bulls were offered a couple of high #1's and a player...? HUM

If its a couple top 5 picks hell yes! If its a couple top 10 picks than it depends on where but probably yes. Two mid-rounders, no

[musiqsoulchild]

If the bulls were offered a couple of high #1's and a player...? HUM

I'd do 2 Top 7 picks + a player for Jimmy.

Jimmy is worth that much for a very simple reason - he's underpaid in the new CBA. And he's a 2 way player and a perfect guy to be numero uno on a team looking for a leader.

Boston is a good fit in that regard for Jimmy and vice versa.

[musiqsoulchild]

Basically, IF Rose and Jimmy cannot become a highly functioning tandem ( tandem being the key word --- not duo), then we need to do an addition by subtraction trade.

Here's a good one ---- Pax calls Kerr and asks him if we can work out a S&T for Harrison Barnes for Jimmy.

Problem solved. On all ends. Jimmy is no Durant --- but he is a superb consolation prize. And GSW can still go after Durant with a Klay Thompson centered package.

We'd be moving Rose to SG then and move Moore to PG. Then trade our excess for a good distributing PG who also has a good 3 point shot.

Traded for PG / Moore signed with rights
Rose / Snell
Doug / Niko
Barnes / Niko
Taj / Portis
Gasol / Portis

You trade for that PG using a combination of picks, Dunleavy, and even Taj. Calderon for Dunleavy + pick comes to mind.

[Bomba Navarro]

If the bulls were offered a couple of high #1's and a player...? HUM

I'd do 2 Top 7 picks + a player for Jimmy.

Jimmy is worth that much for a very simple reason - he's underpaid in the new CBA. And he's a 2 way player and a perfect guy to be numero uno on a team looking for a leader.

Boston is a good fit in that regard for Jimmy and vice versa.

This exactly. In fact, if I'm the Bulls I don't pull the trigger if one of the picks is not a top 3 in this draft. Talent pool outside of the first three picks seems subpar, and a star is worth more than a couple of good players. Those are a dime a dozen.

BTW, what's with the fascination with Marcus Smart around here? He's just not good.

[FlatearthZorro]

This board confuses me. So many people were against the Oladipo + Vucevic + draft pick train but are ready to hop on the Crowder (worse than Vucevic / worse offense w/ slightly better defense) + Smart (worse than Oladipo / a much more unathletic Westbrook) + draft pick train.

If the front office was underselling Jimmy then how are they not doing it now?

It's almost as if people parrot the first opinion expressed on a thread and in this particular case it was the idea that this trade is good...

Crowder's salary goes down every year of his deal. He's averaging over 15, 5.5 rbs and league leading over 2 steals a game, while shooting 40 % from 3(he gets about 9 misl this season, next year he'll get like 8.something)... Smart is under contract for 2 more years... Jae is 1 of the best defenders in the league, don't you dare compare Jae's defense to Vucevic, this is outrageous.. Oladipo is better than Smart, but he will get paid before Smart does and will cost you 20 mils.. Smart is an outstanding defender and has improved his O a lot in the last 15 games. If you watch the C's, you gonna see how many winning plays Smart has made in the past 10 games(starting with that win in Cleveland where we trailed by 5 with 8 seconds?).. Vucevic and Oladipo will cost you somewhere in the 32 mils in cap, Smart and Crowder- probably 20, when u resign Smart and that's if keeps up on offense.

That + the BKN pick, which as of now looks like a top 5.

edit: Also, I'm not sure, I want Crowder and Smart out of town, to be honest. Crowder is basically the heart and soul of this team. He's what KG used to be for us. One of those guys you love having on ur team, but hate playing against, great locker room presence.

[musiqsoulchild]

This board confuses me. So many people were against the Oladipo + Vucevic + draft pick train but are ready to hop on the Crowder (worse than Vucevic / worse offense w/ slightly better defense) + Smart (worse than Oladipo / a much more unathletic Westbrook) + draft pick train.

If the front office was underselling Jimmy then how are they not doing it now?

It's almost as if people parrot the first opinion expressed on a thread and in this particular case it was the idea that this trade is good...

Crowder's salary goes down every year of his deal. He's averaging over 15, 5.5 rbs and league leading over 2 steals a game, while shooting 40 % from 3(he gets about 9 misl this season, next year he'll get like 8.something)... Smart is under contract for 2 more years... Jae is 1 of the best defenders in the league, don't you dare compare Jae's defense to Vucevic, this is outrageous.. Oladipo is better than Smart, but he will get paid before Smart does and will cost you 20 mils.. Smart is an outstanding defender and has improved his O a lot in the last 15 games. If you watch the C's, you gonna see how many winning plays Smart has made in the past 10 games(starting with that win in Cleveland where we trailed by 5 with 8 seconds?).. Vucevic and Oladipo will cost you somewhere in the 32 mils in cap, Smart and Crowder- probably 20, when u resign Smart and that's if keeps up on offense.

That + the BKN pick, which as of now looks like a top 5.

I think the offer you are suggesting is a better one than the Orlando offer. My ONLY issue with it is that Smart isnt a good 3 point shooter but pretends to be one in terms of volume at least.

Over here, we are scared of players like that. We already have someone with that particular non-skill on our roster.

I'd rather have Bradley + Crowder + pick. You have to factor in that Crowder had serious injury with his ACL.

[FlatearthZorro]

This board confuses me. So many people were against the Oladipo + Vucevic + draft pick train but are ready to hop on the Crowder (worse than Vucevic / worse offense w/ slightly better defense) + Smart (worse than Oladipo / a much more unathletic Westbrook) + draft pick train.

If the front office was underselling Jimmy then how are they not doing it now?

It's almost as if people parrot the first opinion expressed on a thread and in this particular case it was the idea that this trade is good...

Crowder's salary goes down every year of his deal. He's averaging over 15, 5.5 rbs and league leading over 2 steals a game, while shooting 40 % from 3(he gets about 9 misl this season, next year he'll get like 8.something)... Smart is under contract for 2 more years... Jae is 1 of the best defenders in the league, don't you dare compare Jae's defense to Vucevic, this is outrageous.. Oladipo is better than Smart, but he will get paid before Smart does and will cost you 20 mils.. Smart is an outstanding defender and has improved his O a lot in the last 15 games. If you watch the C's, you gonna see how many winning plays Smart has made in the past 10 games(starting with that win in Cleveland where we trailed by 5 with 8 seconds?).. Vucevic and Oladipo will cost you somewhere in the 32 mils in cap, Smart and Crowder- probably 20, when u resign Smart and that's if keeps up on offense.

That + the BKN pick, which as of now looks like a top 5.

I think the offer you are suggesting is a better one than the Orlando offer. My ONLY issue with it is that Smart isnt a good 3 point shooter but pretends to be one in terms of volume at least.

Over here, we are scared of players like that. We already have someone with that particular non-skill on our roster.

Smart's shooting form actually looks really good. It's a matter of confidence and repetition. He has ways to go on offense tho. If he can keep it up like he is right now, he will be just fine. He's shooting 3's right now, cause that's how our system is build and he's trying to fit in, I guess... He's still 21 and Jae is 25.

[TheStig]

Basically, IF Rose and Jimmy cannot become a highly functioning tandem ( tandem being the key word --- not duo), then we need to do an addition by subtraction trade.

Here's a good one ---- Pax calls Kerr and asks him if we can work out a S&T for Harrison Barnes for Jimmy.

Problem solved. On all ends. Jimmy is no Durant --- but he is a superb consolation prize. And GSW can still go after Durant with a Klay Thompson centered package.

We'd be moving Rose to SG then and move Moore to PG. Then trade our excess for a good distributing PG who also has a good 3 point shot.

Traded for PG / Moore signed with rights
Rose / Snell
Doug / Niko
Barnes / Niko
Taj / Portis
Gasol / Portis

You trade for that PG using a combination of picks, Dunleavy, and even Taj. Calderon for Dunleavy + pick comes to mind.

So you want to trade Jimmy for someone who is worse and will make more.

That's a horrible trade. GarPax should be fired on the spot if that trade even crosses their mind.

[TheStig]

Crowder's salary goes down every year of his deal. He's averaging over 15, 5.5 rbs and league leading over 2 steals a game, while shooting 40 % from 3(he gets about 9 misl this season, next year he'll get like 8.something)... Smart is under contract for 2 more years... Jae is 1 of the best defenders in the league, don't you dare compare Jae's defense to Vucevic, this is outrageous.. Oladipo is better than Smart, but he will get paid before Smart does and will cost you 20 mils.. Smart is an outstanding defender and has improved his O a lot in the last 15 games. If you watch the C's, you gonna see how many winning plays Smart has made in the past 10 games(starting with that win in Cleveland where we trailed by 5 with 8 seconds?).. Vucevic and Oladipo will cost you somewhere in the 32 mils in cap, Smart and Crowder- probably 20, when u resign Smart and that's if keeps up on offense.

That + the BKN pick, which as of now looks like a top 5.

I think the offer you are suggesting is a better one than the Orlando offer. My ONLY issue with it is that Smart isnt a good 3 point shooter but pretends to be one in terms of volume at least.

Over here, we are scared of players like that. We already have someone with that particular non-skill on our roster.

Smart's shooting form actually looks really good. It's a matter of confidence and repetition. He has ways to go on offense tho. If he can keep it up like he is right now, he will be just fine. He's shooting 3's right now, cause that's how our system is build and he's trying to fit in, I guess... He's still 21 and Jae is 25.

I'd have to sersiously consider Smart, Crowder and both Brooklyn picks. Or Smart, both Brooklyn picks, Memphis pick and a Celtics first.

It's hard to let go of Jimmy but I think Smart and those picks will be good.

[SpinninHouse]

Disagree. This team has the exact same habit of beating the contenders, then laying an egg against the bottom-feeders.

The biggest difference is injuries. Noah is done for the year, Niko has missed a ton, Rose had the mask and double vision for a long time, and Jimmy had the knee injury.

+1. We all knew this year was a wash and ultimately a year of transition into Hoiball.

We did? I seem to remember Gar Forman getting up on a stage after his triumph (and only) victory in firing Thibs and proclaiming this a championship caliber team. Not to mention most of the media picking us to be the second best team in the east.

They were so confident in their team, that they made no roster changes...... That doesn't sound like a transitional year. In a transitional year, you transition the players that aren't part of your future into ones that are.

I agree. And while I was appalled by Forman's egregious decision to bring back the exact same team, I certainly didn't think we'd be THIS bad. Forman said we would be championship caliber and KC Johnson even brought this to his attention after the trade dead line passed.

Forman was very defensive -- as most GM's on their way to dismissal usually are.

[Chi town]

We did? I seem to remember Gar Forman getting up on a stage after his triumph (and only) victory in firing Thibs and proclaiming this a championship caliber team. Not to mention most of the media picking us to be the second best team in the east.

They were so confident in their team, that they made no roster changes...... That doesn't sound like a transitional year. In a transitional year, you transition the players that aren't part of your future into ones that are.

I dont think he was talking about management because we seem smarter than them, more likely speaking for many fans here because we all saw the flaws in last years team. This year is just a progression of those flaws last year since Fred could not hide the flaws behind playing the younger guys more minutes, which develops players quicker but also adds to the dysfunction

I don't know. Many people were talking about the fact that the players gave up on Thibs and that Fred has a system that would make us a good offensive team. People were expecting big things. I just think it lets management off the hook by just lowering expectations and forgetting what they said. Management afterall are the highly paid professionals. So they should know better

Yes and yes. Darth, that is what I meant. Anytime you change systems its transition. Gar is an idiot for saying the championship team company line. He has since backed up on that and said he never said that... making him look even dumber.

If I am GarPax I would have done the same thing though. See if what you has can play Hoiball. So far we have seen that Rose and Jimmy can't co exist and only play ISO HERO ball. The Bulls didn't have the assets to make some great trade. If they stay healthy they do probably challenge the Cavs. If not, you find out what you have and then this summer you fully transition to Hoiball. Which is what I see them doing.... although I don't trust that they will do it right. The jimmy trade for winning team players in Smart Jae and a top pick is encouraging though.

[musiqsoulchild]

Basically, IF Rose and Jimmy cannot become a highly functioning tandem ( tandem being the key word --- not duo), then we need to do an addition by subtraction trade.

Here's a good one ---- Pax calls Kerr and asks him if we can work out a S&T for Harrison Barnes for Jimmy.

Problem solved. On all ends. Jimmy is no Durant --- but he is a superb consolation prize. And GSW can still go after Durant with a Klay Thompson centered package.

We'd be moving Rose to SG then and move Moore to PG. Then trade our excess for a good distributing PG who also has a good 3 point shot.

Traded for PG / Moore signed with rights
Rose / Snell
Doug / Niko
Barnes / Niko
Taj / Portis
Gasol / Portis

You trade for that PG using a combination of picks, Dunleavy, and even Taj. Calderon for Dunleavy + pick comes to mind.

So you want to trade Jimmy for someone who is worse and will make more.

That's a horrible trade. GarPax should be fired on the spot if that trade even crosses their mind.

In a vaccum, Jimmy is the better player. But next to Rose, Barnes is much better player. Especially if Rose moves to the 2 GUARD position for about 24 minutes a game.

Here's a good example of a roster that works much better in practice than a Rose + Jimmy backcourt combo.

Shaun Livingston / Moore
Derrick Rose / Moore
Harrison Barnes / Dougie
Taj / Niko
Pau / Portis

[bullsRlife]

notice we don't have posters from other boards coming here and making trade proposals for derrick rose

So, that's only because of the injury risk. Let's say, he has no known risk of injury, he'd be just as coveted as Jimmy, but even more so. Guaranteed. Since he is, that lowers his value in the eyes of GMs and fans.

My point still stands. We've already got a leg up on so many other teams, since we do have 2 studs on the perimeter that are just entering their prime.

even in recent weeks when he's been playing much better, derrick has still been a very ordinary PG. he will very likely never again be a stud. and given that his knees are well past their prime, derrick himself is well past his prime. because his athleticism was what made him special. so to say that other teams don't value him as a franchise cornerstone simply because of the injury risk, whereas we should DESPITE the injury risk...the argument just doesn't hold water. it's mostly about on-court ability/performance

Lmao at *very ordinary". You dont even believe that.

[khufure]

edit: Also, I'm not sure, I want Crowder and Smart out of town, to be honest. Crowder is basically the heart and soul of this team. He's what KG used to be for us. One of those guys you love having on ur team, but hate playing against, great locker room presence.

I know what you mean, Butler and Noah have the same effect here. Our defense hasn't been the same.

Anyway this thread is dead until summer right? Was interesting and that many picks is compelling.. but nothing happening here for months right?

[RebuildaBulls]

I like Jimmy and totally respect his game but I'd trade Butler for a chance at Ben Simmons. Butler seems to be wanting a team where he is 'the man' while the Bulls are trying to be a ball-movement type team. Not sure if that can work together with how Jimmy wants to play.