Would the Bulls 'reset' and trade Jimmy Butler this offseason ? What would Celtics need to give you?

[musiqsoulchild]

So, that's only because of the injury risk. Let's say, he has no known risk of injury, he'd be just as coveted as Jimmy, but even more so. Guaranteed. Since he is, that lowers his value in the eyes of GMs and fans.

My point still stands. We've already got a leg up on so many other teams, since we do have 2 studs on the perimeter that are just entering their prime.

even in recent weeks when he's been playing much better, derrick has still been a very ordinary PG. he will very likely never again be a stud. and given that his knees are well past their prime, derrick himself is well past his prime. because his athleticism was what made him special. so to say that other teams don't value him as a franchise cornerstone simply because of the injury risk, whereas we should DESPITE the injury risk...the argument just doesn't hold water. it's mostly about on-court ability/performance

Lmao at *very ordinary". You dont even believe that.

He has been average.

If you get a D in your mid-term and an A in your Final...you're still at a C. Or barely a B.

It doesnt matter that you took the first test with one eye and that you got an A when the test was very easy ( No Jimmy playing).

[bullsRlife]

even in recent weeks when he's been playing much better, derrick has still been a very ordinary PG. he will very likely never again be a stud. and given that his knees are well past their prime, derrick himself is well past his prime. because his athleticism was what made him special. so to say that other teams don't value him as a franchise cornerstone simply because of the injury risk, whereas we should DESPITE the injury risk...the argument just doesn't hold water. it's mostly about on-court ability/performance

Lmao at *very ordinary". You dont even believe that.

He has been average.

If you get a D in your mid-term and an A in your Final...you're still at a C. Or barely a B.

It doesnt matter that you took the first test with one eye and that you got an A when the test was very easy ( No Jimmy playing).

To call him "very ordinary" from his MOT recent play is so disingenuous, and not critically thinking I can't take your argument serious.

Are you guys computers or human beings. Players progress, and change during the course of a season. To use his play from the beginning of the season against him, just tells me you have no clue how to asses a player, and asses a situation, at all.

At least Dice is saying he thinks Derrick's looked average recently. You're actually saying Derrick looks average, because of his past play.

I don't even know how to reply to such a bone headed post.

[TheStig]

Basically, IF Rose and Jimmy cannot become a highly functioning tandem ( tandem being the key word --- not duo), then we need to do an addition by subtraction trade.

Here's a good one ---- Pax calls Kerr and asks him if we can work out a S&T for Harrison Barnes for Jimmy.

Problem solved. On all ends. Jimmy is no Durant --- but he is a superb consolation prize. And GSW can still go after Durant with a Klay Thompson centered package.

We'd be moving Rose to SG then and move Moore to PG. Then trade our excess for a good distributing PG who also has a good 3 point shot.

Traded for PG / Moore signed with rights
Rose / Snell
Doug / Niko
Barnes / Niko
Taj / Portis
Gasol / Portis

You trade for that PG using a combination of picks, Dunleavy, and even Taj. Calderon for Dunleavy + pick comes to mind.

So you want to trade Jimmy for someone who is worse and will make more.

That's a horrible trade. GarPax should be fired on the spot if that trade even crosses their mind.

In a vaccum, Jimmy is the better player. But next to Rose, Barnes is much better player. Especially if Rose moves to the 2 GUARD position for about 24 minutes a game.

Here's a good example of a roster that works much better in practice than a Rose + Jimmy backcourt combo.

Shaun Livingston / Moore
Derrick Rose / Moore
Harrison Barnes / Dougie
Taj / Niko
Pau / Portis

Why would we be building around Rose? That's just silly. Jimmy is the future. Rose is gone after next year.

Not only is that team worse. But I'm pretty sure Fred Hoiberg will shoot himself in the face if he is trying to space the court and he has to start the 3 terrible shooters and a slow mo post player.

Quick question, is there a worse 3pt shooting back court in NBA history than Livingston/Rose?

[jnrjr79]

Basically, IF Rose and Jimmy cannot become a highly functioning tandem ( tandem being the key word --- not duo), then we need to do an addition by subtraction trade.

Here's a good one ---- Pax calls Kerr and asks him if we can work out a S&T for Harrison Barnes for Jimmy.

Problem solved. On all ends. Jimmy is no Durant --- but he is a superb consolation prize. And GSW can still go after Durant with a Klay Thompson centered package.

We'd be moving Rose to SG then and move Moore to PG. Then trade our excess for a good distributing PG who also has a good 3 point shot.

Traded for PG / Moore signed with rights
Rose / Snell
Doug / Niko
Barnes / Niko
Taj / Portis
Gasol / Portis

You trade for that PG using a combination of picks, Dunleavy, and even Taj. Calderon for Dunleavy + pick comes to mind.

Talent-wise, moving Jimmy for Barnes is a pretty awful return.

Practically, if we're moving Jimmy because he won't run a GS-style share-the-ball, pace-and-space offense, then why does GS want him?

[jnrjr79]

I dont think he was talking about management because we seem smarter than them, more likely speaking for many fans here because we all saw the flaws in last years team. This year is just a progression of those flaws last year since Fred could not hide the flaws behind playing the younger guys more minutes, which develops players quicker but also adds to the dysfunction

I don't know. Many people were talking about the fact that the players gave up on Thibs and that Fred has a system that would make us a good offensive team. People were expecting big things. I just think it lets management off the hook by just lowering expectations and forgetting what they said. Management afterall are the highly paid professionals. So they should know better

Yes and yes. Darth, that is what I meant. Anytime you change systems its transition. Gar is an idiot for saying the championship team company line. He has since backed up on that and said he never said that... making him look even dumber.

If I am GarPax I would have done the same thing though. See if what you has can play Hoiball. So far we have seen that Rose and Jimmy can't co exist and only play ISO HERO ball. The Bulls didn't have the assets to make some great trade. If they stay healthy they do probably challenge the Cavs. If not, you find out what you have and then this summer you fully transition to Hoiball. Which is what I see them doing.... although I don't trust that they will do it right. The jimmy trade for winning team players in Smart Jae and a top pick is encouraging though.

Re: the bolded part above, just playing devil's advocate here, when did he say it?

As best I can tell, it's a Cowley term that GarPax never actually uttered. Though they may have held the belief, I suppose.

[musiqsoulchild]

Basically, IF Rose and Jimmy cannot become a highly functioning tandem ( tandem being the key word --- not duo), then we need to do an addition by subtraction trade.

Here's a good one ---- Pax calls Kerr and asks him if we can work out a S&T for Harrison Barnes for Jimmy.

Problem solved. On all ends. Jimmy is no Durant --- but he is a superb consolation prize. And GSW can still go after Durant with a Klay Thompson centered package.

We'd be moving Rose to SG then and move Moore to PG. Then trade our excess for a good distributing PG who also has a good 3 point shot.

Traded for PG / Moore signed with rights
Rose / Snell
Doug / Niko
Barnes / Niko
Taj / Portis
Gasol / Portis

You trade for that PG using a combination of picks, Dunleavy, and even Taj. Calderon for Dunleavy + pick comes to mind.

Talent-wise, moving Jimmy for Barnes is a pretty awful return.

Practically, if we're moving Jimmy because he won't run a GS-style share-the-ball, pace-and-space offense, then why does GS want him?

He's a better Iguodala than Iguodala.

And, thats just an example....we could always 3 team it with GS getting picks to move to OKC, Barnes coming here and Jimmy going to OKC. With Durant landing in GSW.

GSW will pay through the nose to get a team of Curry - Klay - Durant - Draymond - Ezeli.

[musiqsoulchild]

So you want to trade Jimmy for someone who is worse and will make more.

That's a horrible trade. GarPax should be fired on the spot if that trade even crosses their mind.

In a vaccum, Jimmy is the better player. But next to Rose, Barnes is much better player. Especially if Rose moves to the 2 GUARD position for about 24 minutes a game.

Here's a good example of a roster that works much better in practice than a Rose + Jimmy backcourt combo.

Shaun Livingston / Moore
Derrick Rose / Moore
Harrison Barnes / Dougie
Taj / Niko
Pau / Portis

Why would we be building around Rose? That's just silly. Jimmy is the future. Rose is gone after next year.

Not only is that team worse. But I'm pretty sure Fred Hoiberg will shoot himself in the face if he is trying to space the court and he has to start the 3 terrible shooters and a slow mo post player.

Quick question, is there a worse 3pt shooting back court in NBA history than Livingston/Rose?

I also suggested trading Dunleavy for Jose Calderon if Livingston doesnt do it for you.

And, I am not looking to build around Derrick. I am looking to clear the uni-dimensionality of our present backcourt.

[musiqsoulchild]

Lmao at *very ordinary". You dont even believe that.

He has been average.

If you get a D in your mid-term and an A in your Final...you're still at a C. Or barely a B.

It doesnt matter that you took the first test with one eye and that you got an A when the test was very easy ( No Jimmy playing).

To call him "very ordinary" from his MOT recent play is so disingenuous, and not critically thinking I can't take your argument serious.

Are you guys computers or human beings. Players progress, and change during the course of a season. To use his play from the beginning of the season against him, just tells me you have no clue how to asses a player, and asses a situation, at all.

At least Dice is saying he thinks Derrick's looked average recently. You're actually saying Derrick looks average, because of his past play.

I don't even know how to reply to such a bone headed post.

Re-read my post.

And tell me what you think I wrote about Derricks recent play.

[anrichardson]

They would have to give Brad Stevens, TL,DR

[dice]

So, that's only because of the injury risk. Let's say, he has no known risk of injury, he'd be just as coveted as Jimmy, but even more so. Guaranteed. Since he is, that lowers his value in the eyes of GMs and fans.

My point still stands. We've already got a leg up on so many other teams, since we do have 2 studs on the perimeter that are just entering their prime.

even in recent weeks when he's been playing much better, derrick has still been a very ordinary PG. he will very likely never again be a stud. and given that his knees are well past their prime, derrick himself is well past his prime. because his athleticism was what made him special. so to say that other teams don't value him as a franchise cornerstone simply because of the injury risk, whereas we should DESPITE the injury risk...the argument just doesn't hold water. it's mostly about on-court ability/performance

Lmao at *very ordinary". You dont even believe that.

of course i do. over the past several weeks derrick rose has been very ordinary. which is MUCH better than he was earlier in the year

how long do you think derrick rose has been better than ordinary this year?

[TheStig]

In a vaccum, Jimmy is the better player. But next to Rose, Barnes is much better player. Especially if Rose moves to the 2 GUARD position for about 24 minutes a game.

Here's a good example of a roster that works much better in practice than a Rose + Jimmy backcourt combo.

Shaun Livingston / Moore
Derrick Rose / Moore
Harrison Barnes / Dougie
Taj / Niko
Pau / Portis

Why would we be building around Rose? That's just silly. Jimmy is the future. Rose is gone after next year.

Not only is that team worse. But I'm pretty sure Fred Hoiberg will shoot himself in the face if he is trying to space the court and he has to start the 3 terrible shooters and a slow mo post player.

Quick question, is there a worse 3pt shooting back court in NBA history than Livingston/Rose?

I also suggested trading Dunleavy for Jose Calderon if Livingston doesnt do it for you.

And, I am not looking to build around Derrick. I am looking to clear the uni-dimensionality of our present backcourt.

I think you clear Derrick before you clear Jimmy.

I also find it very unlikely that we are willing to give a long term big dollar deal like he would seek.

[dice]

even in recent weeks when he's been playing much better, derrick has still been a very ordinary PG. he will very likely never again be a stud. and given that his knees are well past their prime, derrick himself is well past his prime. because his athleticism was what made him special. so to say that other teams don't value him as a franchise cornerstone simply because of the injury risk, whereas we should DESPITE the injury risk...the argument just doesn't hold water. it's mostly about on-court ability/performance

Lmao at *very ordinary". You dont even believe that.

He has been average.

If you get a D in your mid-term and an A in your Final...you're still at a C. Or barely a B.

It doesnt matter that you took the first test with one eye and that you got an A when the test was very easy ( No Jimmy playing).

you can start after he got rid of the mask and he's still been very ordinary. it's only over his last 6 games (with one he sat out in the middle) that he was better than ordinary

[bullsRlife]

even in recent weeks when he's been playing much better, derrick has still been a very ordinary PG. he will very likely never again be a stud. and given that his knees are well past their prime, derrick himself is well past his prime. because his athleticism was what made him special. so to say that other teams don't value him as a franchise cornerstone simply because of the injury risk, whereas we should DESPITE the injury risk...the argument just doesn't hold water. it's mostly about on-court ability/performance

Lmao at *very ordinary". You dont even believe that.

of course i do. over the past several weeks derrick rose has been very ordinary. which is MUCH better than he was earlier in the year

how long do you think derrick rose has been better than ordinary this year?

No, no he hasn't. He's been putting up borderline all star numbers, and his past 3 games have all star and above type numbers.

You have this weird fetish in wanting to convince people he's an ordinary player, when you and I both know he's not an ordinary player. Ordinary players don't go toe to toe with the elite PGs in the league, and even beat them out on some nights. That's not "ordinary".

[bullsRlife]

Lmao at *very ordinary". You dont even believe that.

He has been average.

If you get a D in your mid-term and an A in your Final...you're still at a C. Or barely a B.

It doesnt matter that you took the first test with one eye and that you got an A when the test was very easy ( No Jimmy playing).

you can start after he got rid of the mask and he's still been very ordinary. it's only over his last 6 games (with one he sat out in the middle) that he was better than ordinary

He's had plenty of games mixed in between he got rid of the mask where he's been spectacular. Even by your high standards.

[R3AL1TY]

Don't like the idea of signing older C to B-rated PGs just to get Rose off the team. Why not get something equal or at least a young player with upside like Jordan Clarkson? Would Rather see Barnes and Jimmy on the same team if Barnes doesn't want max money.

[musiqsoulchild]

I think the question needs to be asked....what is the definition of "Rose played well"?

I get all of the qualitative variables and the intangibles....but at the end of it all ...how do you metric it?

I dont think 15 / 6 cuts it.

[musiqsoulchild]

Don't like the idea of signing older C to B-rated PGs just to get Rose off the team. Why not get something equal or at least a young player with upside like Jordan Clarkson? Would Rather see Barnes and Jimmy on the same team if Barnes doesn't want max money.

Rose stays on the team. He moves to the ball dominant off-guard who can also create about 7 dimes a game.

[dice]

Lmao at *very ordinary". You dont even believe that.

of course i do. over the past several weeks derrick rose has been very ordinary. which is MUCH better than he was earlier in the year

how long do you think derrick rose has been better than ordinary this year?

No, no he hasn't. He's been putting up borderline all star numbers, and his past 3 games have all star and above type numbers.

You have this weird fetish in wanting to convince people he's an ordinary player, when you and I both know he's not an ordinary player. Ordinary players don't go toe to toe with the elite PGs in the league, and even beat them out on some nights. That's not "ordinary".

i'm saying that overall he's averaged out to ordinary over the past several weeks

you didn't answer my question, btw

[dice]

He has been average.

If you get a D in your mid-term and an A in your Final...you're still at a C. Or barely a B.

It doesnt matter that you took the first test with one eye and that you got an A when the test was very easy ( No Jimmy playing).

you can start after he got rid of the mask and he's still been very ordinary. it's only over his last 6 games (with one he sat out in the middle) that he was better than ordinary

He's had plenty of games mixed in between he got rid of the mask where he's been spectacular. Even by your high standards.

we're not talking about individual games here, buddy. and the "spectacular" games have been few and far between

[bullsRlife]

of course i do. over the past several weeks derrick rose has been very ordinary. which is MUCH better than he was earlier in the year

how long do you think derrick rose has been better than ordinary this year?

No, no he hasn't. He's been putting up borderline all star numbers, and his past 3 games have all star and above type numbers.

You have this weird fetish in wanting to convince people he's an ordinary player, when you and I both know he's not an ordinary player. Ordinary players don't go toe to toe with the elite PGs in the league, and even beat them out on some nights. That's not "ordinary".

i'm saying that overall he's averaged out to ordinary over the past several weeks

you didn't answer my question, btw

I'm not talking overall, I'm talking now, and what he figures to look like going forward.

I wasn't avoiding your question, I just didn't read all of your post. It's not about how long, and pin pointing an exact date. It's about how he's looked on numerous occasions, and how he's looked lately. I can cite a bunch of games where he looks like a legit all star and above type of player.