PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus

[mpharris36]

But Dolan broke your assumptions once by hiring Phil and giving him control right?

we are talking about Phil Jackson though right. The HOF coach. The zen master. You think Dolan is going to give the same amount of control to normal everday GM?

no way, not happening...thats not how dolan operates. I have years and years of facts to back that up.

[NOOB77]

Did Melo state that he would not come here if there was a NTC on the table because I don't remember that. I have seen in baseball players get a modified no trade clause where they give a list of teams they would accept a trade to and a list of teams they wouldn't.

How is that "modified no trade clause" any different than a normal NTC?

Because it gives GM some power as they can have a list of teams that he can get traded too. He can drive the price up by letting those teams bid for Melo. So lets say Melo lists Clippers, Bulls, Heat, Spurs, Cavs and Wizards on his list. Then those teams would be bidding against each other for Melo. Doesn't give Melo total power. Now with a NTC Melo has the power you either trade him where he wants or you are stuck with him bottom line.

[GONYK]

Right but everyone assumes without Phil all this "bad" stuff would happen. Maybe we have Thibs now and no triangle. Maybe we have Towns now. Maybe we traded Melo at the deadline because Phil wasn't here to give him a NTC. There are tons of things that could go either way.....

Phil has been an average GM. Seems to be trying to rebuild while making the playoffs which will cause use to be the definition of a treadmill team. He needs to have a clear direction for the franchise. Either rebuild through draft or get Free Agents and make win now trade. He makes moves that contradict each other. I am all for full rebuild or win now just pick a way. If you are win now a failure to get a lead guard in here is a massive failure. If you are rebuild then giving Melo a NTC and have AA, DWill and Thomas still on the roster is a failure. Can't walk the line because all he is building is a treadmill team.

The NTC is a weird criticism, because the choice wasn't Melo with an NTC or Melo without one. It's Melo with an NTC or no Melo at all.

I don't remember a lot of people clamoring for letting Melo walk while getting nothing in return while his FA was happening.

I think this team caught in transition. I think the frontcourt is solid, but the backcourt obviously needs work. I think Phil thought Grant was more ready than he clearly is.

Other than that, I don't see a major need to tear everything down and declare we are rebuilding and burning off talent. We are a better roster than last year and have a chance to be better than this year if we make smart decisions in the summer.

I don't think has done a bad job with roster construction, though he clearly could have shored up the PG position instead of getting Seraphin. I think his real flaw has been picking a coach.

When did Melo say that he wasn't resigning without a NTC? I don't remember that at all. Phil said that he had offered Melo like 5 different contracts...it looks to me like Melo just picked one

Why would you expect Melo to make a public statement about it? Melo said nothing at all during his FA. He disappeared into a hole communication wise, and re-appeared as a Knick.

[prophet_of_rage]

Why do people keep saying this? Who did we miss out on? Greg Monroe? That's who you are bitching over?

Aldridge, Jordan, Monroe ... one third of the league was in free agency that year and we came out of it with Lopez, no point guard and Afflalo. It was a bad return.

Here's the free agency list

http://www.nba.com/freeagents/2015/

Now you know I love you, but you're wrong. Lopez is a good signing. Monroe has been horrible. LMA has been shaky at best and Jordan is Jordan making way more than Robin.

I stand by my opinion that we needed a PG. That's where Phil fuqed up.

Thanks for the love. Now where's the lust? Take a look at the list again. These were the big names he tried for and failed with. Monroe is Monroe sure but he would do what Lopez does. DJ is doing well and Aldridge is doing well on the second best team in the league.

But he could have at least looked at guys like Joseph or what have you and better shooting guards than Afflalo.

[NOOB77]

But Dolan broke your assumptions once by hiring Phil and giving him control right?

we are talking about Phil Jackson though right. The HOF coach. The zen master. You think Dolan is going to give the same amount of control to normal everday GM?

no way, not happening...thats not how dolan operates. I have years and years of facts to back that up.

Can't say never because it just happened. I could see Dolan giving complete control to someone like Thibs sort of like what Van Gundy has in Detroit.

[Deeeez Knicks]

This team was trash and needed to be blown up when Phil took over. The Tyson trade was a mistake, but at least he quickly corrected course, tanked and ended up with KP.

When you blow up a team and start over, it takes time and there will be mistakes especially when 2 out of your next 3 first round picks and pretty much all of your second round picks are gone from previous GMs. Still, Phil has made mistakes and its disappointing to see the team play this way while sticking with Sasha/Calderon, but at least Phil got the most important decision right (KP) and we have flexibility to correct the course once again.

Say what you want about Phil, but he really does know the game and what it takes to win. He is also our best option to fix things. Just have to stick with him and hope things get better because things can certainly be worse.

That is the harsh reality of things.

[GONYK]

Did Melo state that he would not come here if there was a NTC on the table because I don't remember that. I have seen in baseball players get a modified no trade clause where they give a list of teams they would accept a trade to and a list of teams they wouldn't.

How is that "modified no trade clause" any different than a normal NTC?

Because it gives GM some power as they can have a list of teams that he can get traded too. He can drive the price up by letting those teams bid for Melo. So lets say Melo lists Clippers, Bulls, Heat, Spurs, Cavs and Wizards on his list. Then those teams would be bidding against each other for Melo. Doesn't give Melo total power. Now with a NTC Melo has the power you either trade him where he wants or you are stuck with him bottom line.

Melo can just give Phil a list right now. I'm not seeing the difference beyond semantics.

[mpharris36]

But Dolan broke your assumptions once by hiring Phil and giving him control right?

we are talking about Phil Jackson though right. The HOF coach. The zen master. You think Dolan is going to give the same amount of control to normal everday GM?

no way, not happening...thats not how dolan operates. I have years and years of facts to back that up.

Can't say never because it just happened.

it happened in a very unique and specific circumstance. He would never have gotten Phil to agree to become the President of Operations without full control. In negotiations he said I will only come with full control. How many people can honestly demand that in an interview. Do you think Allan Houston would do that.

let me save your the trouble...he would not get the same control phil got...not even close.

[NYKnicksTAPE]

The NTC is a weird criticism, because the choice wasn't Melo with an NTC or Melo without one. It's Melo with an NTC or no Melo at all.

I don't remember a lot of people clamoring for letting Melo walk while getting nothing in return while his FA was happening.

I think this team caught in transition. I think the frontcourt is solid, but the backcourt obviously needs work. I think Phil thought Grant was more ready than he clearly is.

Other than that, I don't see a major need to tear everything down and declare we are rebuilding and burning off talent. We are a better roster than last year and have a chance to be better than this year if we make smart decisions in the summer.

I don't think has done a bad job with roster construction, though he clearly could have shored up the PG position instead of getting Seraphin. I think his real flaw has been picking a coach.

When did Melo say that he wasn't resigning without a NTC? I don't remember that at all. Phil said that he had offered Melo like 5 different contracts...it looks to me like Melo just picked one

Why would you expect Melo to make a public statement about it? Melo said nothing at all during his FA. He disappeared into a hole communication wise, and re-appeared as a Knick.

That doesn't mean that it was NTC or bust tho...that seems to be more opinion than fact. I remember Phil saying that many different contract versions were on the table...the version with the NTC was probably just the most appealing one to Melo, but that doesn't mean that he would've bounced without it

[Floozenheimen]

But Dolan broke your assumptions once by hiring Phil and giving him control right?

we are talking about Phil Jackson though right. The HOF coach. The zen master. You think Dolan is going to give the same amount of control to normal everday GM?

no way, not happening...thats not how dolan operates. I have years and years of facts to back that up.

Can't say never because it just happened. I could see Dolan giving complete control to someone like Thibs sort of like what Van Gundy has in Detroit.

Dolan isn't giving away full power if Phil leaves on bad terms. He's going to resume his psychotic approach to running the team with a brand spanking new GM, maybe Allan Houston. We need Phil to succeed, not only for the short term (5ish years), but for the long term (5-15) years with Dolan running the show. You have no idea how bad it would be if he fired Phil.

[GONYK]

When did Melo say that he wasn't resigning without a NTC? I don't remember that at all. Phil said that he had offered Melo like 5 different contracts...it looks to me like Melo just picked one

Why would you expect Melo to make a public statement about it? Melo said nothing at all during his FA. He disappeared into a hole communication wise, and re-appeared as a Knick.

That doesn't mean that it was NTC or bust tho...that seems to be more opinion than fact. I remember Phil saying that many different contract versions were on the table...the version with the NTC was probably just the most appealing one to Melo, but that doesn't mean that he would've bounced without it

It's more deductive reasoning than opinion.

-There is no incentive for Phil to offer it unless Melo asked for it.
-There is no real incentive for Melo to walk away from a big market contender to stay with a non-playoff team and take a paycut for doing so without some degree of control over his future (i.e, not doing this then getting traded to Sacramento for the rest of his career)
-If Melo had various offers on the table, but took the NTC one, then by definition, he rejected the others
-The Knicks were not willing to engage in S&T talks with other teams for Melo, so he would have had to walk.

Now if you have reasoning that runs counter to that as to why Phil offered something he had no incentive to offer, I'd love to hear it.

[delvec19]

I can't watch the games anymore but I always check the PG thread out of habit and to basically just keep up with current drama. Pretty much regret it every time.


Anyone who wants to watch a fun local team, Seton Hall Pirates have their best team in years are projected to be a 7th seed in the NCAAs. Only thing keeping me sane until Yankees baseball and fantasy begins.

[mpharris36]

so you think Phil just gave Melo a NTC for **** and giggles. Why in the world would he do that.

I'm pretty sure that is something Melo requested to stay. He wanted to come back to play for NY. Not get traded to Phoenix a year into the deal.

So GONYK is right when he says its deductive reasoning.

[prophet_of_rage]

Don't forget Melo's no trade clause which means we will never get anything of value for him.

its not melo with a NTC its Melo with a NTC or no Melo at all.

Where did this assumption come from that Melo would have signed here without a NTC? I think that was actually a very big part of him re-upping with us.

So its Melo with his NTC value vs No Melo at all.

I'm taking the Melo with his NTC value....which one are you?

I think the assumption comes from NY being in the driver's seat with a money hungry Melo. NY could offer the most. They didn't need an NTC to seal the deal and if they did they should have signed and traded him for better assets considering they struck out in free agency.

[GONYK]

Don't forget Melo's no trade clause which means we will never get anything of value for him.

its not melo with a NTC its Melo with a NTC or no Melo at all.

Where did this assumption come from that Melo would have signed here without a NTC? I think that was actually a very big part of him re-upping with us.

So its Melo with his NTC value vs No Melo at all.

I'm taking the Melo with his NTC value....which one are you?

I think the assumption comes from NY being in the driver's seat with a money hungry Melo. NY could offer the most. They didn't need an NTC to seal the deal and if they did they should have signed and traded him for better assets considering they struck out in free agency.

The Lakers offered him the same money, and the Bulls laid out a proposal where he gets the same money over 2 deals. They were also willing to move Gibson in order to offer him the MAX if it really came to that.

[NOOB77]

How is that "modified no trade clause" any different than a normal NTC?

Because it gives GM some power as they can have a list of teams that he can get traded too. He can drive the price up by letting those teams bid for Melo. So lets say Melo lists Clippers, Bulls, Heat, Spurs, Cavs and Wizards on his list. Then those teams would be bidding against each other for Melo. Doesn't give Melo total power. Now with a NTC Melo has the power you either trade him where he wants or you are stuck with him bottom line.

Melo can just give Phil a list right now. I'm not seeing the difference beyond semantics.

But Melo doesn't have to give a list right now. The list from above would be binding in his contract. No way around it. Say his original list in his contract had the Lakers on it that would have been before Kobe announced his retirement. Now you could trade Melo to the Lakers regardless of the situation the Lakers are in. If you asked Melo now the Lakers wouldn't be listed.

[moocow007]

so you think Phil just gave Melo a NTC for **** and giggles. Why in the world would he do that.

I'm pretty sure that is something Melo requested to stay. He wanted to come back to play for NY. Not get traded to Phoenix a year into the deal.

So GONYK is right when he says its deductive reasoning.

Because he's inexperienced?

How many teams that he was interested in and that was interested in him was offering him 4 year max? Wasn't the rumor that the Bulls was willing to sign him but only if he took less than max? The Clippers didn't have cap space at all. The Heat didn't have cap space for a max. The Cavs didn't have cap space for a max. You guys are saying that it's deductive reasoning that Anthony demanded a NTC "or else" but why not also use deductive reasoning to assume that maybe no other team (that he was interested in going to and that could have signed him) were interested in giving him even a 4 year max much less a 4 year max with a no trade clause and that Jackson may have been outbidding himself in terms of contract add-ons?

Of course we won't know what actually caused Jackson to agree to give him a NTC but as plausible as it is to assume that Anthony insisted on one "or else", it's also plausible to assume that Anthony simply asked for it (with no conditions on it as a "you won't get if you don't ask" scenario) and Jackson simply said "ok".

[prophet_of_rage]

Why would you expect Melo to make a public statement about it? Melo said nothing at all during his FA. He disappeared into a hole communication wise, and re-appeared as a Knick.

That doesn't mean that it was NTC or bust tho...that seems to be more opinion than fact. I remember Phil saying that many different contract versions were on the table...the version with the NTC was probably just the most appealing one to Melo, but that doesn't mean that he would've bounced without it

It's more deductive reasoning than opinion.

-There is no incentive for Phil to offer it unless Melo asked for it.
-There is no real incentive for Melo to walk away from a big market contender to stay with a non-playoff team and take a paycut for doing so without some degree of control over his future (i.e, not doing this then getting traded to Sacramento for the rest of his career)
-If Melo had various offers on the table, but took the NTC one, then by definition, he rejected the others
-The Knicks were not willing to engage in S&T talks with other teams for Melo, so he would have had to walk.

Now if you have reasoning that runs counter to that as to why Phil offered something he had no incentive to offer, I'd love to hear it.

Just because Melo asks for it doesn't mean Phil has to agree to it.

There is incentive. The incentive was $30 million. He didn't take a pay cut at all. He just didn't maximize his salary. He still making more annually on this contract than last.

He took the offer that was most beneficial to him. If it wasn't on the table he would have still had to decide whether to take less money elsewhere. Melo has never taken less money or the gamble when it comes to money. Doesn't mean he would have walked without it.

The Knicks weren't going to sign and trade then Melo would have had to leave $30 million on the table to walk. does that sound like Melo? The guy who didn't become a free agent in 2010 because he chose not to have an opt out clause and get full value. The guy who forced a trade to the Knicks rather than wait for free agency because of the impending lock out. Melo who said "It's about the appearance of having money." That guy?

[GONYK]

Because it gives GM some power as they can have a list of teams that he can get traded too. He can drive the price up by letting those teams bid for Melo. So lets say Melo lists Clippers, Bulls, Heat, Spurs, Cavs and Wizards on his list. Then those teams would be bidding against each other for Melo. Doesn't give Melo total power. Now with a NTC Melo has the power you either trade him where he wants or you are stuck with him bottom line.

Melo can just give Phil a list right now. I'm not seeing the difference beyond semantics.

But Melo doesn't have to give a list right now. The list from above would be binding in his contract. No way around it. Say his original list in his contract had the Lakers on it that would have been before Kobe announced his retirement. Now you could trade Melo to the Lakers regardless of the situation the Lakers are in. If you asked Melo now the Lakers wouldn't be listed.

Ah, I see.

I get the legal difference. I don't think it makes an actual difference though, since teams don't generally trade major assets for stars who don't want to be there.

[moocow007]

Don't forget Melo's no trade clause which means we will never get anything of value for him.

its not melo with a NTC its Melo with a NTC or no Melo at all.

Where did this assumption come from that Melo would have signed here without a NTC? I think that was actually a very big part of him re-upping with us.

So its Melo with his NTC value vs No Melo at all.

I'm taking the Melo with his NTC value....which one are you?

I think the assumption comes from NY being in the driver's seat with a money hungry Melo. NY could offer the most. They didn't need an NTC to seal the deal and if they did they should have signed and traded him for better assets considering they struck out in free agency.

Yeah this is my take. NY could have given him what? $30 million more overall than any other team? That's a lot of money to simply walk away from if you didn't get a no trade clause. If I was any player, I would ask for a NTC or anything else that I can possibly ask for that would benefit me. It doesn't mean I'm going to walk if I don't get it, nor does it mean that I'm selfish. It just means that if you are saying I can ask for something extra (and the CBA says I can), then why wouldn't I ask for it? Whether you give it to me or not, that's your choice. Asking for something is how I got my last job title bump. Does it mean I'd have quit if they didn't give it to me? Nope. Does it mean I'm more selfish than those that didn't ask? Nope. It's like Alan Houston. Was he supposed to ask for a lot less? Why would he? Why would anyone? Him being given more than what he's worth isn't on him, it's on the guy making the decision on whether to give it to him or not.