Suns @ magic

[JMac1]

31 point 15 rebounds 2 blocks from our 22 year old raw center.
14 points 6 assist and 4 rebounds from our 19 year old shooting guard
10 points 4 rebounds from our 21 year old back-up shooting guard.

And people are complaining that we won

And this fan base questions Sarver's I.Q.

Totally happy with the game; the outcome is what it is. I root for Len and Booker to make shots, I know the byproduct of that could be wins.

Let the lottery take care of itself. I can imagine the 5th team winning the lotto or moving up and us moving back at 3, then everyone crying about we should have won more games.....

[bigfoot]

Finally the great tank debate starts again. Fortunately, it's been a while. Booker, Len, and Goodwin playing well and getting the win and we hear from the tanking whiners about losing ground on a "supposedly" incredible draft pick. Booker, Len, and Goodwin lose and we hear from the tanking whiners about the team and coaching being pathetic. Tankers are never happy with anything ... you really should think about counseling and taking some happy pills.

[bwgood77]

Brooklyn won too. No ground lost in lotto race. We are still, and likely will remain, in third.

Brooklyn has won 5 of their last 10
Phoenix has won 5 of their last 37

This is what I've been saying, we really aren't in any danger of dropping to the forth spot.

The outrage of people over winning our 5th game in 37 tries is ridiculous.

Brooklyn got worse at the deadline.

I don't think JJ's heart was in it though. Two things though, they are on a very long road trip right now, and have won three out of their last five, which occurred after the deadline, including a big win against us and another against Utah.

But the other thing is, they have zero incentive to lose.

The scary thing to me isn't that they will get worse, it's more that we are suddenly playing well in games, and beating even mediocre teams convincingly twice in four games makes me wonder how often we can do it. Other than the Lakers games and TWolves games I think our schedule is fairly tough the rest of the way. If we an just at least split those games, or better yet, lose 3 or 4 of them, we will be looking ok. If we happen to win 3 or 4 of them, we could hurt our chances big time.

But, at the same time, we could also slip to 4th or 5th, win the lottery, and look back on those losses as blessings. Or pull out a last second win for the better position by a spot and watch that lower spot win it. Again, not saying I want worse odds, but anything can happen.

[NavLDO]

I wonder if some of you guys play basketball.. Losing sucks man.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

I wonder if you know what it's like to run a franchise. At this point losing is the key to future success. When the suns miss out on #2 odds because of one extra win, remember this.

right, because we are guaranteed to draft a superstar at #2 and a bust at #3 and there is no way at all that we make any trades.

#armchairgm

Wholeheartedly agree on this sentiment.

Anyway, games like this are going to happen, and I'd rather give Len, Booker, Warren, and Goodwin some confidence (and yes, I know Warren is out) every now and then, then have them believe that even if they play well, they aren't good enough to win.

We are most certainly tanking given the starting lineup; Watson is getting our young guys some good burn. You can't ask a coach or a player to 'lose' on purpose; you can only set up an environment that's likely to lose more than not. Anything more than that, and you are going to have some very irked players/coaches. You also can't pull out a young player when they play well; that sends the flat out wrong message.

So I don't think anyone here wants to miss out on a top talent in the draft, but we also don't want our players to lose the confidence in the team's leadership. We already have enough 'bad press' in that department as it is.

[NavLDO]

What are you guys proposing? We put our young guys out there and they won us a game. If Watson had played tucker, chandler, and mirza as the primary options and we had won off their backs, then yes I understand why you'd be mad. But are we supposed to be mad at our core young players for doing well?? Is McD supposed to tell the team to lose games on purpose? Not even the sixers do that.

This is only half true. The vets played better than usual. Despite Len's greatness, we still had the ability to lose if Price and others played like their usual, terrible selves. And yes, I propose that our coach should be benching vets who get hot. Do it under the guise of "earning a break" or something like that. I'm all for pulling our vets if they become hot from the field or play really well.

That's BS and you know it. I don't care if you are 19 or 50, it hurts your psyche and makes you wonder if your leadership supports you and your development/career.

These guys are not ONLY playing for the team, they are playing to earn money, and if I'm a vet having a great game, and my HC sits me? I'm gonna be pissed, because now the Coach has restricted my ability to 'show my stuff' in hopes of earning more money. And I'm also going to leave the team first opportunity I have and make comments to the press that are very similar to the sentiment of Dragic and the Morri. And don't think the Agent isn't going to go ballistic, as well.

Starting a young player over 'me' is one thing; sitting 'me' because I'm playing too well is on a-whole-nother level of underhandedness.

[RunDogGun]

I wonder if you know what it's like to run a franchise. At this point losing is the key to future success. When the suns miss out on #2 odds because of one extra win, remember this.

right, because we are guaranteed to draft a superstar at #2 and a bust at #3 and there is no way at all that we make any trades.

#armchairgm

Wholeheartedly agree on this sentiment.

Anyway, games like this are going to happen, and I'd rather give Len, Booker, Warren, and Goodwin some confidence (and yes, I know Warren is out) every now and then, then have them believe that even if they play well, they aren't good enough to win.

We are most certainly tanking given the starting lineup; Watson is getting our young guys some good burn. You can't ask a coach or a player to 'lose' on purpose; you can only set up an environment that's likely to lose more than not. Anything more than that, and you are going to have some very irked players/coaches. You also can't pull out a young player when they play well; that sends the flat out wrong message.

So I don't think anyone here wants to miss out on a top talent in the draft, but we also don't want our players to lose the confidence in the team's leadership. We already have enough 'bad press' in that department as it is.

We go through this every year with fans. "Tanking" has negative connotations with an intent to lose. From what I've seen in this league, it's very rare to see a player do it, and even rarer to see a coach do it. As for players who have dogged it, or purposely didn't play their best, it wasn't so the team could get a better draft position.

We have injuries to key players, and should be in player evaluation mode, where we are playing guys that normally would be deeper bench guys.

What I would be extremely pissed about, would be the league looking into our losses, and determining that we were being dishonest, and strip us of our draft picks. I really wish fans would just stfu about "tanking". If a fan enjoys us losing, then be happy, for we are. Many will say, well Philly has been doing it, why would the league look into us? Same reason they decided that Duncan walking six feet onto the court after Jones undercut Elson, was not a suspendable act, but Diaw and Amare moving towards Nash, was escalating one.

[SSOL]

Finally the great tank debate starts again. Fortunately, it's been a while. Booker, Len, and Goodwin playing well and getting the win and we hear from the tanking whiners about losing ground on a "supposedly" incredible draft pick. Booker, Len, and Goodwin lose and we hear from the tanking whiners about the team and coaching being pathetic. Tankers are never happy with anything ... you really should think about counseling and taking some happy pills.

No, I'm consistent. Lose. I love seeing Len and Booker develop. Absolutely love it. But for those of you that do not understand what adding a superstar, yes Simmons and Ingram are superstars, on a rookie deal would mean for this franchise with a rising cap and Bledsoe and Warren coming back next season, well I don't know how to explain it to you. Also, for those paranoid fans that say "we could be fifth and move up" yes you are right. But the point is to put yourself in position to have the absolute best odds. Yeah Booker could make a 35 foot three while double teamed to win game 7 of the finals, but wouldn't it be better if he was at the rim uncontested? Sure, he could miss it, but the odds are the odds.

[SSOL]

right, because we are guaranteed to draft a superstar at #2 and a bust at #3 and there is no way at all that we make any trades.

#armchairgm

Wholeheartedly agree on this sentiment.

Anyway, games like this are going to happen, and I'd rather give Len, Booker, Warren, and Goodwin some confidence (and yes, I know Warren is out) every now and then, then have them believe that even if they play well, they aren't good enough to win.

We are most certainly tanking given the starting lineup; Watson is getting our young guys some good burn. You can't ask a coach or a player to 'lose' on purpose; you can only set up an environment that's likely to lose more than not. Anything more than that, and you are going to have some very irked players/coaches. You also can't pull out a young player when they play well; that sends the flat out wrong message.

So I don't think anyone here wants to miss out on a top talent in the draft, but we also don't want our players to lose the confidence in the team's leadership. We already have enough 'bad press' in that department as it is.

We go through this every year with fans. "Tanking" has negative connotations with an intent to lose. From what I've seen in this league, it's very rare to see a player do it, and even rarer to see a coach do it. As for players who have dogged it, or purposely didn't play their best, it wasn't so the team could get a better draft position.

We have injuries to key players, and should be in player evaluation mode, where we are playing guys that normally would be deeper bench guys.

What I would be extremely pissed about, would be the league looking into our losses, and determining that we were being dishonest, and strip us of our draft picks. I really wish fans would just stfu about "tanking". If a fan enjoys us losing, then be happy, for we are. Many will say, well Philly has been doing it, why would the league look into us? Same reason they decided that Duncan walking six feet onto the court after Jones undercut Elson, was not a suspendable act, but Diaw and Amare moving towards Nash, was escalating one.

It is perfectly within the rules to lose. Players do not lose on purpose but there is a reason the rotations are what they are and there is a reason they change game to game. If you think for a second that the front office is rooting for wins at this stage, you are foolish. Further, the league would not "strip a team of picks." Nothing will change until the Board of Govenors approves an evening of odds between 1-4.

[NavLDO]

Finally the great tank debate starts again. Fortunately, it's been a while. Booker, Len, and Goodwin playing well and getting the win and we hear from the tanking whiners about losing ground on a "supposedly" incredible draft pick. Booker, Len, and Goodwin lose and we hear from the tanking whiners about the team and coaching being pathetic. Tankers are never happy with anything ... you really should think about counseling and taking some happy pills.

Stop that nonsensical drivel! Our fanbase here at RealGM provide nothing but constructive criticism and are ultimately supportive of our players, coaches, and GM! This opinion you have of a bunch of posters here being 'haters' is preposterous! Nuts, I tell you!

At least that's what someone who shall remain nameless tried to sell me the other day in another thread. That any posts that appear to be negative are really them being supportive and 'hoping' our players play better!

But you are absolutely correct, bigfoot. You can't have it both ways! Either you want to tank or not; and if it's the former, then you can't get upset and 'knock' the GM for the assembled team, or the players when they play poorly; it's what you wanted anyway! Un-freaking-believable!!

And now Len is finding his groove, and fans are STILL complaining about his play. Even in this thread someone mentioned that even though he played well, he's still stiff. It's hilarious. And of course the majority of the Len 'haters' are all of a sudden very quiet, over all, but just wait until he has a poor game. He'll get 'throttled', because, well, good players NEVER have off-nights, right?

Anyway, getting off-topic. Point is, yes we are tanking, yes the team will likely lose more than win with our current roster. But if Len, Goodwin, and Booker get hot and start winning some games for us, then I'll be happier than a pig in ****; as that will portend a positive future for us, IMO.

[RunDogGun]

Wholeheartedly agree on this sentiment.

Anyway, games like this are going to happen, and I'd rather give Len, Booker, Warren, and Goodwin some confidence (and yes, I know Warren is out) every now and then, then have them believe that even if they play well, they aren't good enough to win.

We are most certainly tanking given the starting lineup; Watson is getting our young guys some good burn. You can't ask a coach or a player to 'lose' on purpose; you can only set up an environment that's likely to lose more than not. Anything more than that, and you are going to have some very irked players/coaches. You also can't pull out a young player when they play well; that sends the flat out wrong message.

So I don't think anyone here wants to miss out on a top talent in the draft, but we also don't want our players to lose the confidence in the team's leadership. We already have enough 'bad press' in that department as it is.

We go through this every year with fans. "Tanking" has negative connotations with an intent to lose. From what I've seen in this league, it's very rare to see a player do it, and even rarer to see a coach do it. As for players who have dogged it, or purposely didn't play their best, it wasn't so the team could get a better draft position.

We have injuries to key players, and should be in player evaluation mode, where we are playing guys that normally would be deeper bench guys.

What I would be extremely pissed about, would be the league looking into our losses, and determining that we were being dishonest, and strip us of our draft picks. I really wish fans would just stfu about "tanking". If a fan enjoys us losing, then be happy, for we are. Many will say, well Philly has been doing it, why would the league look into us? Same reason they decided that Duncan walking six feet onto the court after Jones undercut Elson, was not a suspendable act, but Diaw and Amare moving towards Nash, was escalating one.

It is perfectly within the rules to lose. Players do not lose on purpose but there is a reason the rotations are what they are and there is a reason they change game to game. If you think for a second that the front office is rooting for wins at this stage, you are foolish. Further, the league would not "strip a team of picks." Nothing will change until the Board of Govenors approves an evening of odds between 1-4.

It's not in the rules to lose on purpose. Whether the FO is rooting for us not to win is irrelevant. It would be dishonest if they were telling players or coaches to lose on purpose. Any evidence to that, would cause the league to make an example, and we all know that with our "luck", we'd be the team they make an example of. Our rotations are what they are, and often we are giving big minutes to both super young and our older players. Their inconsistency (which they have had all season) and injuries, causes these rotations, not any desire to lose on purpose.

[RunDogGun]

Finally the great tank debate starts again. Fortunately, it's been a while. Booker, Len, and Goodwin playing well and getting the win and we hear from the tanking whiners about losing ground on a "supposedly" incredible draft pick. Booker, Len, and Goodwin lose and we hear from the tanking whiners about the team and coaching being pathetic. Tankers are never happy with anything ... you really should think about counseling and taking some happy pills.

Stop that nonsensical drivel! Our fanbase here at RealGM provide nothing but constructive criticism and are ultimately supportive of our players, coaches, and GM! This opinion you have of a bunch of posters here being 'haters' is preposterous! Nuts, I tell you!

At least that's what someone who shall remain nameless tried to sell me the other day in another thread. That any posts that appear to be negative are really them being supportive and 'hoping' our players play better!

But you are absolutely correct, bigfoot. You can't have it both ways! Either you want to tank or not; and if it's the former, then you can't get upset and 'knock' the GM for the assembled team, or the players when they play poorly; it's what you wanted anyway! Un-freaking-believable!!

And now Len is finding his groove, and fans are STILL complaining about his play. Even in this thread someone mentioned that even though he played well, he's still stiff. It's hilarious. And of course the majority of the Len 'haters' are all of a sudden very quiet, over all, but just wait until he has a poor game. He'll get 'throttled', because, well, good players NEVER have off-nights, right?

Anyway, getting off-topic. Point is, yes we are tanking, yes the team will likely lose more than win with our current roster. But if Len, Goodwin, and Booker get hot and start winning some games for us, then I'll be happier than a pig in ****; as that will portend a positive future for us, IMO.

We aren't "tanking", we have had major injuries, and are forced to play deeper bench guys, and often 10 day contract players. This outcome usually results in losses. Moreover, because many of our guys are inconsistent, it's tough to string together wins. Sometimes they all click together and we beat Memphis, and sometimes they they all suck and we lose to bad teams.

Overall, I'm just happy the super young are fighting through the losses, and are still able to put up monster games. The fans need to continue to support these players, and all the guys who suit up.

[Saberestar]

Amazing performance by Len. I know that Vucevic is not a great defender but he is a good starting C in this league, so those 31p and 15r have good value in my opinion.

Booker is a way better ballhandler than everyone expected, he really knows how to protect the ball and run some plays. Really happy to see that he is more than a pure shooter.

Goodwin can have a role on this team next season, but not a big one. He deserves to play every single game, but in order to play big minutes he needs to improve a lot his three point shot/mid range game.

I am not concerned about our wins/loses because it seems pretty clear that we are gonna end with the #3 worse record. We need some luck in the lottery, just that.

[jcsunsfan]

Amazing performance by Len. I know that Vucevic is not a great defender but he is a good starting C in this league, so those 31p and 15r have good value in my opinion.

Booker is a way better ballhandler than everyone expected, he really knows how to protect the ball and run some plays. Really happy to see that he is more than a pure shooter.

Goodwin can have a role on this team next season, but not a big one. He deserves to play every single game, but in order to play big minutes he needs to improve a lot his three point shot/mid range game.

I am not concerned about our wins/loses because it seems pretty clear that we are gonna end with the #3 worse record. We need some luck in the lottery, just that.

I just do not see a future on this team for Goodwin. He has promise, but he is not good enough to break the every day rotation and then there will be more competition next year. If we can put together a deal in the off-season with a team that needs to sort of blow things up and get youth and quantity for a quality player, he probably should be included in the deal.

[Saberestar]

Amazing performance by Len. I know that Vucevic is not a great defender but he is a good starting C in this league, so those 31p and 15r have good value in my opinion.

Booker is a way better ballhandler than everyone expected, he really knows how to protect the ball and run some plays. Really happy to see that he is more than a pure shooter.

Goodwin can have a role on this team next season, but not a big one. He deserves to play every single game, but in order to play big minutes he needs to improve a lot his three point shot/mid range game.

I am not concerned about our wins/loses because it seems pretty clear that we are gonna end with the #3 worse record. We need some luck in the lottery, just that.

I just do not see a future on this team for Goodwin. He has promise, but he is not good enough to break the every day rotation and then there will be more competition next year. If we can put together a deal in the off-season with a team that needs to sort of blow things up and get youth and quantity for a quality player, he probably should be included in the deal.

Well, I wouldn't be upset if he is traded in the summer but we need to receive good value...and I don't think that people values him so much around the league, so probably is better to wait and see if he improves this offseason and breaks next year before the end of his rookie contract.

[RunDogGun]

Price's stat line was quite impressive in this game as well. 14/5/4 with 5 steals and a block shot. Granted he did play 45 minutes, but he shot 6-10, and is our smallest player right now.

Len had a great game, and I'm really happy for him. It would be great if he could find some consistency.

Just so I'm consistent, we won this game from the line, shooting over twice what they did. Tides are turning, or just a total fluke?

[dremill24]

Just so I'm consistent, we won this game from the line, shooting over twice what they did. Tides are turning, or just a total fluke?

I feel like the fact that Len looks so awkward when he's making post moves that it sometimes helps him get calls lol.

[LukasBMW]

It's not just about getting the most ping pong balls. It's also about limiting the number of spots you can drop.

If we finish 3rd, we could drop to 4 or 5. 6 is the worst case scenario.

We finish 4th or 5th and things really start to look ugly.

Even though everyone says that this is a top 2 draft (Simmons and Ingram), there is almost always a shakeup by draft day. A team can make a stupid pick (see Lakers from last year @ 2), a players stock can rise and come from no where, a player can get injured (Noel or Embiid), or a poor workout or NCAA tournament showing can make every one second guess a star.

Philly got Okafor at 3 last year and he was a number 1 pick all year long.

NY got Porzingis at 4.

Every spot counts.

[AtheJ415]

What are you guys proposing? We put our young guys out there and they won us a game. If Watson had played tucker, chandler, and mirza as the primary options and we had won off their backs, then yes I understand why you'd be mad. But are we supposed to be mad at our core young players for doing well?? Is McD supposed to tell the team to lose games on purpose? Not even the sixers do that.

This is only half true. The vets played better than usual. Despite Len's greatness, we still had the ability to lose if Price and others played like their usual, terrible selves. And yes, I propose that our coach should be benching vets who get hot. Do it under the guise of "earning a break" or something like that. I'm all for pulling our vets if they become hot from the field or play really well.

That's BS and you know it. I don't care if you are 19 or 50, it hurts your psyche and makes you wonder if your leadership supports you and your development/career.

These guys are not ONLY playing for the team, they are playing to earn money, and if I'm a vet having a great game, and my HC sits me? I'm gonna be pissed, because now the Coach has restricted my ability to 'show my stuff' in hopes of earning more money. And I'm also going to leave the team first opportunity I have and make comments to the press that are very similar to the sentiment of Dragic and the Morri. And don't think the Agent isn't going to go ballistic, as well.

Starting a young player over 'me' is one thing; sitting 'me' because I'm playing too well is on a-whole-nother level of underhandedness.

Our rotations are BS all year and you know it. Frankly, I don't give a flying **** about Ronnie, PJ, or any of the vets' psychies. I don't give a **** about their opinion of leadership either. Maybe if they didn't half ass it for parts of the season or if Ronnie didn't constantly pressure regardless of the scouting report, allowing drivers to fly by him at will, we wouldn't be in a position where losing was in the franchise's best interest.

The Ronnie Price's of the world can be pissed all they want. Ronnie has had decades to "show his stuff" and has shown nothing more than he already has.

They can leave. I'd love to live in a world where Ronnie Price demands a trade. Let's see it. Because his ego will come flying back to earth the second he learns not a single team will give up even a nacho cheese heater for him.

[JS22]

What are you guys proposing? We put our young guys out there and they won us a game. If Watson had played tucker, chandler, and mirza as the primary options and we had won off their backs, then yes I understand why you'd be mad. But are we supposed to be mad at our core young players for doing well?? Is McD supposed to tell the team to lose games on purpose? Not even the sixers do that.

This is only half true. The vets played better than usual. Despite Len's greatness, we still had the ability to lose if Price and others played like their usual, terrible selves. And yes, I propose that our coach should be benching vets who get hot. Do it under the guise of "earning a break" or something like that. I'm all for pulling our vets if they become hot from the field or play really well.

I primarily lurk here, but my God this is a horrible idea. I'm sure that would go over GREAT with the players. "Hey, PJ! You've just hit a few 3's in a row and we've gone on a 9-0 run. The fans are hyped and you're playing great. You've earned yourself a break! Jenkins, you're going in!"

There are so many things wrong with this idea that I don't even know where to begin. So I'll just leave it at that.

[bwgood77]

Finally the great tank debate starts again. Fortunately, it's been a while. Booker, Len, and Goodwin playing well and getting the win and we hear from the tanking whiners about losing ground on a "supposedly" incredible draft pick. Booker, Len, and Goodwin lose and we hear from the tanking whiners about the team and coaching being pathetic. Tankers are never happy with anything ... you really should think about counseling and taking some happy pills.

No, I'm consistent. Lose. I love seeing Len and Booker develop. Absolutely love it. But for those of you that do not understand what adding a superstar, yes Simmons and Ingram are superstars, on a rookie deal would mean for this franchise with a rising cap and Bledsoe and Warren coming back next season, well I don't know how to explain it to you. Also, for those paranoid fans that say "we could be fifth and move up" yes you are right. But the point is to put yourself in position to have the absolute best odds. Yeah Booker could make a 35 foot three while double teamed to win game 7 of the finals, but wouldn't it be better if he was at the rim uncontested? Sure, he could miss it, but the odds are the odds.

What exactly do you propose the team does to help us lose more?

I don't think many don't understand that adding a superstar (though they are far from being nba superstars yet..Simmons projects to have a pretty good chance, Ingram less so) would do to help this franchise. People put out far fetched trade ideas repeatedly. Saying we could be fifth and move up isn't being paranoid but being honest. Personally I'd rather lose too but I'm not going to come crying over spilled milk repeatedly when there isn't anything I can do about it.

Of course we all want to have the best odds. I understand math. And I think Booker with an uncontested layup goes in a FAR greater deal than a half court shot, a much bigger discrepancy than moving down a spot. 3rd's chances of top 2 are 31.3% while 4th's chances at top 2 are 24.6% (and of course we didn't even move anyway, considering Brooklyn won the same night - more separation would have been nice, but we were in no worse position than before the night, unless you really thought we would catch the Lakers.)

If you want to throw blame on someone for winning, it should be at management, not having doctors evaluating a vet or two more and mentioning they should rest. Few players outside of possibly a guy like Markieff Morris are going to try and lose.

If we continue to play this well 2 out of every 4 games though, this could spell big difference to our lottery odds, but that's up to management if they want to figure out a way to do it. Personally I think management is making a mistake having Price out there, because assessing what we need in the future is more important than short term goals. I would be telling the coach that we need to use the time now to assess guys like Weems and Pressey, because we know what Price can bring.