Game 63: Detroit Pistons (31-31) @ Portland Trail Blazers (33-30) - 6:00 PM ET

[Blkbrd671]

lol at 'one thing I said that's relevant'. Everything I said is relevant. KCP is going to be undersized vs those players his whole career. His age is irrelevant. If no players can guard those guys, that is why you can't pay a SG just to be stopper. If he can't stop the best SGs and can't score efficiently either, then what are we paying him for?

Defensive technique matters and why you worried about paying anyone. As you said KCP can't stop anyone so we should be able to get him cheap. You can't call him crap and then say he'll get paid, its a contradiction.

1 glaring mismatch can absolutely cost a playoff series. In fact that is usually what decides a series. When a team has no answer for the other teams star.

Blaming one player is amateurish cop out for any team. if 1 mismatch is the reason we lose a playoff series, we didn't belong in that series. I am not debating this , as this is fact. Basketball is 5 on 5, not your 1 on 1 scenarios in a vacuum.

Stanley can't guard Butler/Derozan right now, but he at least has the size/strength to matchup with them physically, to where over time he can be developed to guard them. And with his offensive potential, he wouldn't have to shut them down to be effective as he can score on them too, making him a more ideal matchup long-term.

You cherry pick who can develop and who can't in your debates and continually refer to disadvantages while ignoring relevant advantages. Rather than play your game of "in a vacuum", i'll just state this, even if SJ improves his defensive technique and becomes a better defender, he's still not stopping AA, DD or JB. Offensive schemes,film review and rotations all impact matchups and the fact that they are just "Bad a* " SG's. No one can stop them

Your trying to make a argument that maybe SJ can and KCP definitely can't(because you say so), but FACTUALLY neither can. as there isn't any player in the league that can shut down opponents like those mentioned nightly. Nor is there ever a game where one player is matched up all game with another

In a vacuum or 2K , this maybe a interesting debate, but the discussion is reality. And NBA games don't play out like your scenarios.

Harris is shooting 43% from 3 as a Piston (45% as a starter). He's not the one crowding the paint, and when teams do cheat off him he makes them pay. KCP and Morris don't. Teams aren't concerned about KCP getting confidence because they know he's an average shooter at best.

This is like your argument about "SVG making decisions based off 2 game sample post allstar break for 1st rounder that hasn't even been determined". If you think teams are purposely leaving KCP wide open, your not watching the games or film. I can gurantee that. Furthermore AGAIN this isn't a vacuum where RJ always has KCP on his wing, RJ plays with Bullock, Hilliard and other "consistent" shooters and still has trouble with spacing. Sh* MCW found space with the sh* shooters he had in Mil. AGain your trying to blame everything on KCP without any really anything of relevance.

[Blkbrd671]

A "young core" that improves is hard to have. The Pistons (for example) core has already peaked in adding talent; it's highly unlikely that their core changes and that core simply isn't good enough nor does it project to get that much better.

^Bulls fan from the general board... (Grizzlie's treadmill team topic)

Might as well just blow it up now guys.. lol.

Lol that's why I stay away from the GB.

maybe we should create a thread,

"When did players start peaking at 24?"

[MotownMadness]

^Bulls fan from the general board... (Grizzlie's treadmill team topic)

Might as well just blow it up now guys.. lol.

Lol that's why I stay away from the GB.

maybe we should create a thread,

"When did players start peaking at 24?"

We gave it one hell of a run, what is it like 8 games now with this core?

[zeebneeb]

Lol that's why I stay away from the GB.

maybe we should create a thread,

"When did players start peaking at 24?"

We gave it one hell of a run, what is it like 8 games now with this core?

It's funny realgm. No one ever gives the Pistons team or its players a chance in the beginning even some of our own fans.

So far with Harris starting we are what? 5-2? I mean I am frankly amazed we are over .500 with the injuries, trades and how much the team has been built on the fly with pieces coming in and out over the past 18 months.

I said it before and I'll ask it again;

How many teams in the league have all 5 starters who average double figures? It's fantastic that we have that luxury.

[Blkbrd671]

maybe we should create a thread,

"When did players start peaking at 24?"

We gave it one hell of a run, what is it like 8 games now with this core?

It's funny realgm. No one ever gives the Pistons team or its players a chance in the beginning even some of our own fans.

So far with Harris starting we are what? 5-2? I mean I am frankly amazed we are over .500 with the injuries, trades and how much the team has been built on the fly with pieces coming in and out over the past 18 months.

I said it before and I'll ask it again;

How many teams in the league have all 5 starters who average double figures? It's fantastic that we have that luxury.

idk the answer to that, but its encouraging when you consider the fact that we are a poor offensive team.

[Todd3]

Defensive technique matters and why you worried about paying anyone. As you said KCP can't stop anyone so we should be able to get him cheap. You can't call him crap and then say he'll get paid, its a contradiction.

Defensive technique is irrelevant in the post when a player is physically outmatched, and overrated players get overpaid every year. That's not a contradiction.

Blaming one player is amateurish cop out for any team. if 1 mismatch is the reason we lose a playoff series, we didn't belong in that series. I am not debating this , as this is fact. Basketball is 5 on 5, not your 1 on 1 scenarios in a vacuum.

Basketball is a 5 on 5 game played around individual matchups and 1 player CAN cost a series if he's a liability at his position. When you have a mismatch that commands a double-team, it creates an open shot for someone else. The player causing the double is the problem, not the rest of the team. If that happens continually every game, that player can cost you the series if the coach doesn't bench him.

It's not even about whether he would cost us a series though, because he would get benched before that. It's a question of what do we need him for if he can't defend his man and that is what he is being paid to do? If we're going to start a defensive liability at SG in a playoff series, might as well get someone who can at least do something on offense to contribute.

You cherry pick who can develop and who can't in your debates and continually refer to disadvantages while ignoring relevant advantages. Rather than play your game of "in a vacuum", i'll just state this, even if SJ improves his defensive technique and becomes a better defender, he's still not stopping AA, DD or JB. Offensive schemes,film review and rotations all impact matchups and the fact that they are just "Bad a* " SG's. No one can stop them

Acknowledging one player has a physical disadvantage that can't be developed and another doesn't is not cherry picking. It's the truth.

Your trying to make a argument that maybe SJ can and KCP definitely can't(because you say so), but FACTUALLY neither can. as there isn't any player in the league that can shut down opponents like those mentioned nightly. Nor is there ever a game where one player is matched up all game with another

This has nothing to do with Stanley in particular, other than he's an example of someone who has the size to matchup defensively and can still contribute in other ways if getting beat on defense. It's about KCPs inability to defend the post vs elite SGs, combined with his inconsistency on offense, making him a liability on both ends if his shot is off in those matchups .

This is like your argument about "SVG making decisions based off 2 game sample post allstar break for 1st rounder that hasn't even been determined". If you think teams are purposely leaving KCP wide open, your not watching the games or film. I can gurantee that. Furthermore AGAIN this isn't a vacuum where RJ always has KCP on his wing, RJ plays with Bullock, Hilliard and other "consistent" shooters and still has trouble with spacing. Sh* MCW found space with the sh* shooters he had in Mil. AGain your trying to blame everything on KCP without any really anything of relevance.

What does Stan violating the CBA have to do with teams not guarding KCP?

If you want to pretend teams aren't cheating off him, that's your prerogative. Guaranteeing it makes you sound foolish though, as anyone being honest with themselves knows that's not true.

On the season, we shoot 45% FG and 34% 3FG as a team when Reggie and KCP are on the court together. With Reggie and Bullock, we shoot 51% FG and 43% 3FG. Reggie doesn't have trouble with spacing when Bullock is on the court. Why would you even think that? Better shooters = better spacing.

The Bucks spacing is awful around MCW and he is awful too, as is their whole offense, ranked 24th in efficiency. What is your point?

[Blkbrd671]

Defensive technique is irrelevant in the post when a player is physically outmatched

Sig Material

Ben Wallace strongly disagrees

Anyone who has ever played basketball disagrees

and overrated players get overpaid every year. That's not a contradiction.

overrated? how is he overrated? he's a inconsistent shooter and only above average defensively. Makes no sense why anyone would give him a lot of money based on your logic and thoughts on KCP.

Basketball is a 5 on 5 game, yes, but it's also played around individual matchups and 1 player CAN cost a series if he's a liability at his position. When you have a mismatch that commands a double-team, it creates an open shot for someone else. The player causing the double is the problem, not the rest of the team. If that happens continually every game, that player can cost you the series if the coach doesn't bench him.

let me know when that game inside a vacuum happens

It's not even about whether he would cost us a series though, because he would get benched before that. It's a question of what do we need him for if he can't defend his man and that is what he is being paid to do? If we're going to start a defensive liability at SG in a playoff series, might as well get someone who can at least do something on offense to contribute.

This has nothing to do with Stanley in particular, other than he's someone who can still contribute in other ways if getting beat defensively. It's about KCPs inability to defend the post vs elite SGs, combined with his inconsistency on offense, making him a liability on both ends if his shot is off in those matchups (which is usually).

Wait first we are going to lose a series due to this defensive

glaring mismatch

now we'll be fine as long as he can contribute something offensively, even thought there is still a

glaring mismatch

Continually contradicting yourself.

What does Stan violating the CBA have to do with teams not guarding KCP?

moreso just a trend with your post. You cherry pick stats and ignore anything that'll hurt your argument even if its common sense or "glaring" you right in the face.

If you want to pretend teams aren't cheating off him, that's your prerogative. Guaranteeing it makes you sound foolish though, as anyone being honest with themselves knows that's not true.

moreso i actually watch the games and film, and you can go to every game and see that teams are closing out on KCP, and not purposely leaving them wide open like your indicating. Debating something that is fact makes you foolish, especially when there is so much evidence on video to contradict your far fetched logic.

On the season, we shoot 45% FG and 34% 3FG as a team when Reggie and KCP are on the court together. With Reggie and Bullock, we shoot 51% FG and 43% 3FG. Reggie doesn't have trouble with spacing when Bullock is on the court. Why would you even think that? Better shooters = better spacing.

The Bucks spacing is awful around MCW and he is awful too, as is their whole offense, ranked 24th in efficiency. What is your point?

There you go again with your vacuum logic. BTW whats the sample size of games on that? Does that assume that KCP is not on the court when RB and RJ are playing together? whats the defensive down grade? Do rotations matter Baynes vs Dre. Just another example of you cherry picking stats and leaving out facts like sample size to try to make your far fetched arguments.

This whole debate is pointless as film doesn't lie, and obviously since your continuing to hold fast to this point, you obviously aren't watching.

It is fine though because in every game thread when a defender closes on KCP like they always do, i am sure our board will remind everyone.

"Defenders don't close on KCP "
"KCP doesn't provide spacing"

[Todd3]

Defensive technique is irrelevant in the post when a player is physically outmatched

Sig Material

Ben Wallace strongly disagrees

Anyone who has ever played basketball disagrees

and overrated players get overpaid every year. That's not a contradiction.

overrated? how is he overrated? he's a inconsistent shooter and only above average defensively. Makes no sense why anyone would give him a lot of money based on your logic and thoughts on KCP.

Basketball is a 5 on 5 game, yes, but it's also played around individual matchups and 1 player CAN cost a series if he's a liability at his position. When you have a mismatch that commands a double-team, it creates an open shot for someone else. The player causing the double is the problem, not the rest of the team. If that happens continually every game, that player can cost you the series if the coach doesn't bench him.

let me know when that game inside a vacuum happens

It's not even about whether he would cost us a series though, because he would get benched before that. It's a question of what do we need him for if he can't defend his man and that is what he is being paid to do? If we're going to start a defensive liability at SG in a playoff series, might as well get someone who can at least do something on offense to contribute.

This has nothing to do with Stanley in particular, other than he's someone who can still contribute in other ways if getting beat defensively. It's about KCPs inability to defend the post vs elite SGs, combined with his inconsistency on offense, making him a liability on both ends if his shot is off in those matchups (which is usually).

Wait first we are going to lose a series due to this defensive

glaring mismatch

now we'll be fine as long as he can contribute something offensively, even thought there is still a

glaring mismatch

Continually contradicting yourself.

What does Stan violating the CBA have to do with teams not guarding KCP?

moreso just a trend with your post. You cherry pick stats and ignore anything that'll hurt your argument even if its common sense or "glaring" you right in the face.

If you want to pretend teams aren't cheating off him, that's your prerogative. Guaranteeing it makes you sound foolish though, as anyone being honest with themselves knows that's not true.

moreso i actually watch the games and film, and you can go to every game and see that teams are closing out on KCP, and not purposely leaving them wide open like your indicating. Debating something that is fact makes you foolish, especially when there is so much evidence on video to contradict your far fetched logic.

On the season, we shoot 45% FG and 34% 3FG as a team when Reggie and KCP are on the court together. With Reggie and Bullock, we shoot 51% FG and 43% 3FG. Reggie doesn't have trouble with spacing when Bullock is on the court. Why would you even think that? Better shooters = better spacing.

The Bucks spacing is awful around MCW and he is awful too, as is their whole offense, ranked 24th in efficiency. What is your point?

There you go again with your vacuum logic. BTW whats the sample size of games on that? Does that assume that KCP is not on the court when RB and RJ are playing together? whats the defensive down grade? Do rotations matter Baynes vs Dre. Just another example of you cherry picking stats and leaving out facts like sample size to try to make your far fetched arguments.

This whole debate is pointless as film doesn't lie, and obviously since your continuing to hold fast to this point, you obviously aren't watching.

It is fine though because in every game thread when a defender closes on KCP like they always do, i am sure our board will remind everyone.

"Defenders don't close on KCP "
"KCP doesn't provide spacing"

I'm done man. You're nuts.

[BigFatBob]

Good need win last night. We still need that scoring 6th-man that can help us during scoring droughts. I wonder if Waiter's would be interested in Detroit in off-season?

Waiters game is questionable. He was ok in cleveland, now he's disappeared in oklahoma city but maybe he could find his game with detroit. How much would you offer him?

[Dirtgrain]

Defensive technique is irrelevant in the post when a player is physically outmatched . . .

Bill Hanzlik used to give bigger, stronger, faster players hell when he defended them in the post. I've even seen Mugsy Bogues frustrate the crap out of Penny Hardaway, who was trying over and over to post him up.

[Todd3]

Defensive technique is irrelevant in the post when a player is physically outmatched . . .

Bill Hanzlik used to give bigger, stronger, faster players hell when he defended them in the post. I've even seen Mugsy Bogues frustrate the crap out of Penny Hardaway, who was trying over and over to post him up.

If a player can't hold his ground and gets repeatedly backed down at will, and lacks length to contest the shot, he is a liability in the post.

I wasn't talking about pre-post stuff like fronting, denying entry passes, clutching/grabbing to annoy the opponent, etc. I'm talking about once they have you posted, aside from trying to strip the ball, you're at their mercy if you aren't strong enough to hold position. And if you lack the length to contest it after they've backed you into their sweet spot, then your defense is just hoping they miss or fouling. Which is not good defense.

Muggsy Bogues isn't the best example of a post defender , by the way lol

[Pharaoh]

Muggsy would frustrate other guards trying to post him BECAUSE of his size!

He was really strong in the lower part of his body - legs like tree trunks! Due to his lack of height he could get up under much taller players (Penny was the example) & then use his lower body strength to put them off balance.

Technique is only part of the battle in the post. As mentioned by Todd length & strength helps but in my experience having the legs to not only hold your ground but shift their weight is the most important thing.

[BadMofoPimp]

Muggsy would frustrate other guards trying to post him BECAUSE of his size!

He was really strong in the lower part of his body - legs like tree trunks! Due to his lack of height he could get up under much taller players (Penny was the example) & then use his lower body strength to put them off balance.

Technique is only part of the battle in the post. As mentioned by Todd length & strength helps but in my experience having the legs to not only hold your ground but shift their weight is the most important thing.

So true. I played SG in high school, but had strong legs due to years of soccer. I recall being called to guard the other teams 300lb center once because I was the one person he could not back down in the post. And, I pretty much kept him out of his comfort range for post play the entire game.

[Todd3]

Muggsy would frustrate other guards trying to post him BECAUSE of his size!

He was really strong in the lower part of his body - legs like tree trunks! Due to his lack of height he could get up under much taller players (Penny was the example) & then use his lower body strength to put them off balance.

Technique is only part of the battle in the post. As mentioned by Todd length & strength helps but in my experience having the legs to not only hold your ground but shift their weight is the most important thing.

This. You need a strong base. That is where it all starts. Ben was strong down low, that is why he could hold up bigger Centers at only 6-8. Stanley has a great foundation to excel as a post defender. KCP is a twig, which is why he gets backed down so easily, and it's unlikely he could put on the necessary muscle w/o affecting his speed, which is his best asset. He's just not built to defend the post.

[Pharaoh]

Muggsy would frustrate other guards trying to post him BECAUSE of his size!

He was really strong in the lower part of his body - legs like tree trunks! Due to his lack of height he could get up under much taller players (Penny was the example) & then use his lower body strength to put them off balance.

Technique is only part of the battle in the post. As mentioned by Todd length & strength helps but in my experience having the legs to not only hold your ground but shift their weight is the most important thing.

This. You need a strong base. That is where it all starts. Ben was strong down low, that is why he could hold up bigger Centers at only 6-8. Stanley has a great foundation to excel as a post defender. KCP is a twig, which is why he gets backed down so easily, and it's unlikely he could put on the necessary muscle w/o affecting his speed, which is his best asset. He's just not built to defend the post.

No KCP isn't built for it and it's likely he's never going to be able to effectively manage those post up guards one on one...but very few guards are!

And if we're being honest we should want opponents to target that match up! Let's use the Raptors as an example:

IF Derozan is looking to post KCP in isolation every other possession then that's a poor offense! It takes the ball out of Lowry's hands.

I'd send the double off their "4" which either means Scola has to cut quickly or PatPat has gotta consistently make shots from long range.

JV can't really nail the mid range consistently so he'd be hanging around the paint too, meaning Derozan has to not only be aware of where the double is coming from but where Dre is....that's a lot to deal with all while trying to back down KCP.

Assuming Derozan solves the puzzle quickly you double off their 3...or alternate on each possession for a while to keep him guessing.

The whole time the Raptors are looking to iso KCP they're not using their best player's (Lowry) strengths! That's a win for any opponent

[Blkbrd671]

Muggsy would frustrate other guards trying to post him BECAUSE of his size!

He was really strong in the lower part of his body - legs like tree trunks! Due to his lack of height he could get up under much taller players (Penny was the example) & then use his lower body strength to put them off balance.

Technique is only part of the battle in the post. As mentioned by Todd length & strength helps but in my experience having the legs to not only hold your ground but shift their weight is the most important thing.

So true. I played SG in high school, but had strong legs due to years of soccer. I recall being called to guard the other teams 300lb center once because I was the one person he could not back down in the post. And, I pretty much kept him out of his comfort range for post play the entire game.

This, i am not the biggest guy but I could definitely guard the big men because i know how to leverage my position and its hard for big men to gain their position on you when they have to get low to the ground. Its always funny when i call out I got the big man, and first possession mofo's yelling "MISMATCH"! and tries to get deep post position. By the time he gets the ball, i've pushed him out a good 5 feet from where he posted and now he's trying a long as hook shot cuz i am not giving up ground. i gave as much as i took but guarantee i out rebounded the guy. Best part is when the opponents teammates start getting mad.