Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2)

[queridiculo]

Umm I think you still have a couple of things mixed up. We got Okafur and Ariza the year before we got Gortat from Charlotte (who are now better than us).

Grunfeld traded a 1st round pick to Phoenix for Gortat roughly a week before the start of the 2013 season.

This pick turned into Devin Booker, a promising young two guard.

We surrendered assets (cant remeber exactly what) for Ariza who we should have held on to instead of webster and an injury prone okafur.

For the privilege of helping the Pelicans clear salary cap space, Washington sent Rashard Lewis and a second round draft pick to New Orleans for oft injured Okafor and at the time underperforming Ariza.

Leonsis contention at the time that woe poor little Washington couldn't get attract free agents, so salary cap space was of little use to them.

The Pelicans on the other hand managed to turn this salary cap space into Ryan Anderson and Tyreke Evans.

Anderson whom I might add, is exactly the sort of stretch four this team has been sorely lacking.

[ozthegap]

Umm I think you still have a couple of things mixed up. We got Okafur and Ariza the year before we got Gortat from Charlotte (who are now better than us).

Grunfeld traded a 1st round pick to Phoenix for Gortat roughly a week before the start of the 2013 season.

This pick turned into Devin Booker, a promising young two guard.

We surrendered assets (cant remeber exactly what) for Ariza who we should have held on to instead of webster and an injury prone okafur.

For the privilege of helping the Pelicans clear salary cap space, Washington sent Rashard Lewis and a second round draft pick to New Orleans for oft injured Okafor and at the time underperforming Ariza.

Leonsis contention at the time that woe poor little Washington couldn't get attract free agents, so salary cap space was of little use to them.

The Pelicans on the other hand managed to turn this salary cap space into Ryan Anderson and Tyreke Evans.

Anderson whom I might add, is exactly the sort of stretch four this team has been sorely lacking.

Ah I new we got them from a hornets team they weren't the pelicans back then.

[closg00]

Umm I think you still have a couple of things mixed up. We got Okafur and Ariza the year before we got Gortat from Charlotte (who are now better than us).

Grunfeld traded a 1st round pick to Phoenix for Gortat roughly a week before the start of the 2013 season.

This pick turned into Devin Booker, a promising young two guard.

We surrendered assets (cant remeber exactly what) for Ariza who we should have held on to instead of webster and an injury prone okafur.

For the privilege of helping the Pelicans clear salary cap space, Washington sent Rashard Lewis and a second round draft pick to New Orleans for oft injured Okafor and at the time underperforming Ariza.

Leonsis contention at the time that woe poor little Washington couldn't get attract free agents, so salary cap space was of little use to them.

The Pelicans on the other hand managed to turn this salary cap space into Ryan Anderson and Tyreke Evans.

Anderson whom I might add, is exactly the sort of stretch four this team has been sorely lacking.

...and the irony is that Devin Booker looks better than Beal. Just imagine how good the Wizards would be now if Ernie hadn't blown so-many assets, the man has missed on enough players stock several NBA teams.

[payitforward]

Grunfeld traded a 1st round pick to Phoenix for Gortat roughly a week before the start of the 2013 season.

This pick turned into Devin Booker, a promising young two guard.

He is a promising young two guard, but... you have this one wrong. We traded our 2014 R1 pick in the Gortat exchange. Booker was taken in this last draft -- he's a rookie. The pick we gave them turned into Tyler Ennis.

Note that we traded that R1 pick for a one year rental of Gortat who had an expiring contract. Moreover, the Suns were very very eager to deal him. Moreover, aside from Gortat's salary, we also took back another $7m in salary -- the Suns stuck us w/ all their junk players. We waived all those players, eating their salaries.

For the privilege of helping the Pelicans clear salary cap space, Washington sent Rashard Lewis and a second round draft pick to New Orleans for oft injured Okafor and at the time underperforming Ariza... The Pelicans managed to turn this salary cap space (i.e. that they got when they immediately bought out Lewis) into Ryan Anderson and Tyreke Evans.

It wasn't a good trade, that's for sure. But I had no problem w/ the Ariza part of it. I wouldn't say he was under-performing.

The problem was that Okafor had been injured and was a substantial injury risk. And... that's what happened. We paid $14m and got 2000 minutes from him in a losing season. Why bother?

Then he was injured, we had no one to start at Center the following season -- no back up plan at all! -- so we had to hold our socks for Phoenix in order to acquire Gortat. He's an excellent player, but we got him in a way too costly trade.

Note that the 2012 2d round pick we sent NO in the Okariza trade could have nabbed Kyle O'Quinn for us -- I was touting him all through that draft, and he's developed well. He would be an excellent back up Center for us right now and for very little $$.

[payitforward]

...Grunfeld did make many many errors between 08-13. Squandered draft picks, wasted trades, misuse of cap space. I get that. But this is now. I don't agree with your (this forum's) assessment of the Gortat/Ariza trade. We got rid of Okafor (who had a bad neck and hasn't played since he last played with us) for a top center and a great swingman.

Dude, you are starting to scare me!

We traded Rashard Lewis (instead of buying out his last season for @ half the $$ of the salary) to NO for Okafor, whose best years were behind him and who had an injury history, and Ariza.

We got 2000 minutes out of Okafor in a losing season -- for $14m in salary. Then, as could have been predicted, he got injured. Ernie had *no backup plan* and was forced -- the day before the '13 season began to trade for Gortat (a guy I had *always* liked), who was expiring -- rather than wait and sign him as a FA the following off-season. Because he was in a bind, the Suns also shoved every bad contract they had down his throat along w/ Gortat. We waived all those guys. Plus we gave them a R1 pick.

Gortat excels in our offense and works extremely well with Wall. Ariza replaced by Pierce, then Porter has stepped in as explained before. Oubre draft good. Morris trade great.

Gortat is a good player, Jarls. The trade for Gortat was a bad trade.

Most of us liked the pick of Oubre, though some think we should have taken Portis instead. No one thinks the pick was indefensible (like so much else EG has done)

The Morris trade was *awful* -- just terrible. He's not a good player. He wasn't a good player before this season, and he hasn't been good since he joined us. Plus, in Phoenix he was a mal-content, and the Suns had been trying *all season* to dump him to anyone who would take him. No takers. Then along comes Ernie.

I guess I was more referring to Ernie not being a problem currently, as the last few years he has done a good job and I have no qualms with it.

No, he hasn't. And yes you should have qualms. First off, there's *much more* bad stuff than has been mentioned from 2011 forward. E.g. the 2011 draft: instead of Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried and Chandler Parsons -- that's who I wanted at the time, for example -- we got 3 guys none of whom was any good at all.

In 2012, with Draymond Green and Jae Crowder on the board -- we all wanted one of them -- he picked Satoransky, who hasn't come over and just signed a 4-year extension in Spain. Instead of getting Kyle O'Quinn later in that round, he'd blown away the pick needlessly in the Okariza trade.

In 2013, he traded up -- UP! -- to pick Glen Rice. He gave away a pick for that privilege.

In 2014, having had to lose his R1 pick in the Okafor > Gortat crisis (which he had caused), he then traded our R2 pick for a little cash (!) instead of picking Jordan Clarkson, who is an outstanding young 2 guard; now a starter for the Lakers and they'll lock him up for years, because he's one of the guys they're building around.

So is EG a good GM overall. Probably not. But he's better now and I don't believe he is the problem. Firing the guy who put together the best roster the wizards have had in years is stupid.

We don't have a good roster. We have a couple of good players. Wall is quite good, tho by no means elite (i.e. he's not one of the top half dozen PGs in the league -- and no, this is not a matter of "opinion," it's something shown in the numbers). Gortat is @ the #12-15 Center in the league (i.e. an above average starter). Porter is quite promising. Beal, alas, has not yet panned out -- again *not* opinion: the numbers aren't there. Oubre is raw; he may be good, he may be a bust.

And... that's it. The only other player under contract for next year is Markieff Morris, and he's just plain bad. A bad NBA player. Doesn't rebound. Shoots a low %. Does nothing else. He'll look good to you once in a while when he is iso'd in the post and can turn around and shoot a jumper. Emphasis on "once in a while."

If we'd had a good GM in the last 5 years, we'd be a powerhouse in the league. Instead we have the 20th best record in the league -- and that's against a weaker than average schedule of opponents, btw. And every bit of our problem was caused by one guy -- Ernie Grunfeld.

[payitforward]

Oh, and I forgot to mention -- in order to create this colossal mess he also has had to give away our R1 pick this year, our R2 pick this year, and our R2 pick next year.

[jarlmaster47]

See my other posts. I'm done arguing for the team and their "skill" and have taken on a new view towards them.

[ozthegap]

Umm I think you still have a couple of things mixed up. We got Okafur and Ariza the year before we got Gortat from Charlotte (who are now better than us).

Grunfeld traded a 1st round pick to Phoenix for Gortat roughly a week before the start of the 2013 season.

This pick turned into Devin Booker, a promising young two guard.

We surrendered assets (cant remeber exactly what) for Ariza who we should have held on to instead of webster and an injury prone okafur.

For the privilege of helping the Pelicans clear salary cap space, Washington sent Rashard Lewis and a second round draft pick to New Orleans for oft injured Okafor and at the time underperforming Ariza.

Leonsis contention at the time that woe poor little Washington couldn't get attract free agents, so salary cap space was of little use to them.

The Pelicans on the other hand managed to turn this salary cap space into Ryan Anderson and Tyreke Evans.

Anderson whom I might add, is exactly the sort of stretch four this team has been sorely lacking.

...and the irony is that Devin Booker looks better than Beal. Just imagine how good the Wizards would be now if Ernie hadn't blown so-many assets, the man has missed on enough players stock several NBA teams.

Wait a minute are you sure we didn't get okariza from the bobcats? When was okafur on the pelicans. I thought he only ever played for three teams the bobcats, wizards, and suns?

[sashae]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/KnicksVU/status/708324081335214080[/tweet]



#AnalyticsThis -- not sure if this falls more on Ted or Ernie, but ye gods. Take the Acela, you morons.

[montestewart]

Wait a minute are you sure we didn't get okariza from the bobcats? When was okafur on the pelicans. I thought he only ever played for three teams the bobcats, wizards, and suns?

What, you think we've forgotten that trade already? Terd would love that. Okafor was drafted by the Bobcats in '04, traded to the New Orleans Hornets in '09, and to the Wizards in '12. He never played for the Suns. Basketball Reference.

[montestewart]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/KnicksVU/status/708324081335214080[/tweet]



#AnalyticsThis -- not sure if this falls more on Ted or Ernie, but ye gods. Take the Acela, you morons.

Wizards are waiting for the podcast. There is some comedy to be had from all this cluelessness. As long as you're not paying for it.

[pineappleheadindc]

[ozthegap]

Rofl Pine its not even the 12th yet don't scare us like that.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

This has got to be the end of the reign of terror, right?

I mean, Ted can't keep Grunfeld now, right?

[montestewart]

What's to discuss? He sucks and he's here forever.

[BigA]

My prediction: after the Wizards miss the playoffs, lose the pick, and don't get Durant, Ernie and Randy will be fired. Tommy Sheppard will be elevated. I think we'll be at the point where even Ted can't stay in denial.

[nate33]

My prediction: after the Wizards miss the playoffs, lose the pick, and don't get Durant, Ernie and Randy will be fired. Tommy Sheppard will be elevated. I think we'll be at the point where even Ted can't stay in denial.

I think this is probably right. It probably won't be described as Ernie being fired. He'll probably "retire". But I tend to think that this is going to be how it pans out.

I really think it boils down to Wittman. He appears to have lost the team and with EG's contract also up, I just don't see how Ted will justify resigning EG and having him handpick yet another coach. The stars are aligned for Ted to go in a new direction.

There are a couple of monkey wrenches in this scenario, however. I'm assuming Ted will want to give EG a shot at signing Durant, which means he'll have to wait until July. And if he waits until July, it will be difficult to higher a new GM in time to make free agency acquisitions, not to mention hire a new coach.

Also, one wonders if Ted had already agreed to an EG extension at the time he signed off on the Morris trade. It's pretty bad management to let a lame duck GM make franchise-altering decisions like that.

What a mess. I just hope Wall keeps jacking up long 2's to ensure losses and force Ted's hand. This can't continue.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YVrxFmheSc[/youtube]

[BigA]

I really think it boils down to Wittman. He appears to have lost the team and with EG's contract also up, I just don't see how Ted will justify resigning EG and having him handpick yet another coach. The stars are aligned for Ted to go in a new direction.

There are a couple of monkey wrenches in this scenario, however. I'm assuming Ted will want to give EG a shot at signing Durant, which means he'll have to wait until July. And if he waits until July, it will be difficult to higher a new GM in time to make free agency acquisitions, not to mention hire a new coach.

Also, one wonders if Ted had already agreed to an EG extension at the time he signed off on the Morris trade. It's pretty bad management to let a lame duck GM make franchise-altering decisions like that.

What a mess. I just hope Wall keeps jacking up long 2's to ensure losses and force Ted's hand. This can't continue.

Right, it doesn't make sense (logically) for Ted to let Ernie burn down the franchise and THEN fire him, leaving the new GM with very little in the way of assets.

But I suspect that this has something to do with Ted's ideas about loyalty, fairness, and the double bottom line.

Note that Sheppard is already there, Ted did something similar with the Caps, and there is some evidence that it's working for them.

[ozthegap]

I really think it boils down to Wittman. He appears to have lost the team and with EG's contract also up, I just don't see how Ted will justify resigning EG and having him handpick yet another coach. The stars are aligned for Ted to go in a new direction.

There are a couple of monkey wrenches in this scenario, however. I'm assuming Ted will want to give EG a shot at signing Durant, which means he'll have to wait until July. And if he waits until July, it will be difficult to higher a new GM in time to make free agency acquisitions, not to mention hire a new coach.

Also, one wonders if Ted had already agreed to an EG extension at the time he signed off on the Morris trade. It's pretty bad management to let a lame duck GM make franchise-altering decisions like that.

What a mess. I just hope Wall keeps jacking up long 2's to ensure losses and force Ted's hand. This can't continue.

Right, it doesn't make sense (logically) for Ted to let Ernie burn down the franchise and THEN fire him, leaving the new GM with very little in the way of assets.

But I suspect that this has something to do with Ted's ideas about loyalty, fairness, and the double bottom line.

Note that Sheppard is already there, Ted did something similar with the Caps, and there is some evidence that it's working for them.

And why would someone that is already part of that front office deserve a promotion at this point? How would this make things better for us?
And since Ted likes how EG markets the team and makes them money so much, why not make that a separate position and take the basketball aspect out of the job when he so obviously sucks at that part. That way Ted would not have to fire him.

[ozthegap]

I really think it boils down to Wittman. He appears to have lost the team and with EG's contract also up, I just don't see how Ted will justify resigning EG and having him handpick yet another coach. The stars are aligned for Ted to go in a new direction.

There are a couple of monkey wrenches in this scenario, however. I'm assuming Ted will want to give EG a shot at signing Durant, which means he'll have to wait until July. And if he waits until July, it will be difficult to higher a new GM in time to make free agency acquisitions, not to mention hire a new coach.

Also, one wonders if Ted had already agreed to an EG extension at the time he signed off on the Morris trade. It's pretty bad management to let a lame duck GM make franchise-altering decisions like that.

What a mess. I just hope Wall keeps jacking up long 2's to ensure losses and force Ted's hand. This can't continue.

Right, it doesn't make sense (logically) for Ted to let Ernie burn down the franchise and THEN fire him, leaving the new GM with very little in the way of assets.

But I suspect that this has something to do with Ted's ideas about loyalty, fairness, and the double bottom line.

Note that Sheppard is already there, Ted did something similar with the Caps, and there is some evidence that it's working for them.

And why would someone that is already part of that front office deserve a promotion at this point? How would this make things better for us?
And since Ted likes how EG markets the team and makes them money so much, why not make that a separate position and take the basketball aspect out of the job when he so obviously sucks at that part. That way Ted would not have to fire him.

And if they did do it this way and hired someone who's only job was to build a great team, what about hiring a media analyst for the job? They have connections in every team's front office, they monitor every teams moves for a living, they monitor league trends, they have connections with players and their agents, they know who's who in coaching, and they aren't stuck in the ways the front office they gained experience in, did things.