Is Wall Top 5 PG?

[tontoz]

Ok...then analyze turn overs for GS, 4th quarter leads lost for OKC, and any other factor you want and you will find most team and players have flaws. I "think" Wall is top 4 and depending on what Lillard or Wall does that week they leap frog each other. I also see Wall as an improving young star in a guard dominated league.

The reality is none of this matters because-

At this point the only thing that matters is the wiz are in 10th place and if you take Wall off wiz I suspect the would be the76ers. Wall might not be the answer but he sure isn't the problem...

All players have flaws but that isn't the topic of the thread. Wall isn't the Wizards problem but that isnt the topic of the thread either.

Wall hasn't played like a top 5 pg this year. He has been too turnover prone with poor shooting/shot selection.

You and I can agree to disagree- Wall has been top 3 and as bad as top 10 like everyone else not named Curry that made the AllStar team. I would take Wall over everyone except Westbrook that plays point guard. Wall isn't gonna wins ring without a significantly better player or two on this team. Same with everyone 2-200 at the point guard position -

Wall has never been top 3. Only a Wizards homer would claim otherwise. His poor shooting and careless turnovers prevent him from challenging the top pgs.

[deneem4]

Holy crap this is stupid.

Actually... deneem raises a point here that isn't stupid at all -- but it does reflect a basic misunderstanding of how analytics or any statistical thinking actually works.

Essentially, what he asks is this: if basketball wins and losses and player productivity can all be reduced to numbers, why can't we mathematically predict the winner of every game, or at least of most games?

The answer is actually pretty simple: *statistical* facts let us predict *statistical* results. If I have an accurate metric of how good the players are on a given team -- over time, i.e. overall, i.e. statistically -- I can predict w/ some reliability how good the team will be -- i.e. over time, overall, i.e. statistically (win-loss record for example).

That doesn't mean I can predict the outcome of any single game, but it does mean I can predict the overall results for the season. These are two very different things. And deneem's right that players being human beings not machines their output varies. A guy who is tremendous overall can have a bad night. A team that's tremendous overall can have a bad night. GS had one recently, right?

What the analytical information can tell us is how well that team is likely to do overall, on the season. And even that assumes their best players don't have season-ending injuries, etc.

There's no conflict here, no problem either w/ statistics/analytics nor w/ saying that players are individual human beings and not reliable, same numbers every night machines.

Well put.

deneem: Apologies for being obnoxious toward you. We approach the game from very different perspectives, but it's cool.

[payitforward]

Oh man, am I awesome! I made peace between deneem and Kev. Why, yes, I did - & stop denying it!

AFM, are you paying attention?
Mods, is the glow more than you can take?
Ted, now will you send me my $100 bucks?
DocLinkin, where are you -- I wrote you a d#mned sestina!
LyricalRico, are you going to come through w/ your promise to advocate for a new GM if we don't make the playoffs?

[payitforward]

I feel that I should edit that last post, and put it all in large type. Do you all agree with me? You know you do.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Someone's gotta remind me: I need to write something critical of Wall before every game.

[benb331]

Oh man, am I awesome! I made peace between deneem and Kev. Why, yes, I did - & stop denying it!

AFM, are you paying attention?
Mods, is the glow more than you can take?
Ted, now will you send me my $100 bucks?
DocLinkin, where are you -- I wrote you a d#mned sestina!
LyricalRico, are you going to come through w/ your promise to advocate for a new GM if we don't make the playoffs?

I have some dingleberries available for cheap if you want them as a reward.

[benb331]

Someone's gotta remind me: I need to write something critical of Wall before every game.

Those posts are the only things that keep me grounded as a Wizards homer. Thanks.

[DANNYLANDOVER]

Analysis analyst analytics....it all starts with anal...very anal this fanbase...
But if basketball was a complete numbers games...u can mathematically predetermine the winner everytime....
But u cant...why because there's things called variables that doesn't appear on a stat sheet...u know the things who play basketball are human? U know humans aren't mechanical? They're made of things called bones and muscles...those things wear out....did you know they think?, u know they think while they play?
Of course u have the analysis....

Holy crap this is stupid.

First line reads like an intro to a WizD tirade. Man I miss that guy.

I'm pretty sure deneem is WizDynasty.
Maybe not, WizD was funny. The ideal Center with tree trunk legs...fun times

[jangles86]

Johns on track to finish this year with 20ppg 10Apg 5rpg 2spg 1bpg. 5th in the league in double doubles, 6th in triple doubles (equal with Curry). Per of 20.3, TS%51.
These are 1st team all NBA stats most seasons. If the Wizards miraculously make the playoffs, wall deserves consideration for at least 2nd team.

[CobraCommander]

All players have flaws but that isn't the topic of the thread. Wall isn't the Wizards problem but that isnt the topic of the thread either.

Wall hasn't played like a top 5 pg this year. He has been too turnover prone with poor shooting/shot selection.

You and I can agree to disagree- Wall has been top 3 and as bad as top 10 like everyone else not named Curry that made the AllStar team. I would take Wall over everyone except Westbrook that plays point guard. Wall isn't gonna wins ring without a significantly better player or two on this team. Same with everyone 2-200 at the point guard position -

Wall has never been top 3. Only a Wizards homer would claim otherwise. His poor shooting and careless turnovers prevent him from challenging the top pgs.

I would never claim to be anything but a Wizards homer. I also read other boards and talk to fans of other team and Wall gets more respect from those guys than he does from the Wiz board. People in Portland are not as sure Lillard is better than Wall as the Wiz fans are. Review their board...they complain he shoots too much, doesn't play defense, ran off Aldridge, is friendly (too concerned about hip hop?!? Wtf is that), too many turn overs...etc. People in Clipper land where posting about the rumors of getting Kyrie for Paul...and no one sees Kyrie as top 5 anymore. My point is simply this- love the one you got. Appreciate the players on your team. I don't think it's as much of a stretch as you do that Wall is top 3. I also think players would disagree with you about the turn over issue being as big as an issue as you do. FOR EXAMPLE- Harden was the players MVP- high turn overs. Westbrook- High turn overs- Player understand that if you have the ball and try to make stuff happen the defense can get you to turn it over. To improve he has to improve his turn overs...but it doesn't disqualify him from the conversation.

GO WIZ

[deneem4]

Wall is responsible for literally almsot half the team points some games...
10 assist is minimum 20points + 20points wall brings
That's 40 points wall is responsible for each game
We score about 100
Wall is singlehandley responsible for about 40% of our points not counting the hockey assists or 3pt assists or foul points from his potential assits

Compare wall teammates to every other pg in the league...he has the least versatility around him...
Westbrook durant kanter
Curry draymond klay igu
Lowry Derozan val
Lillard McCollum(Beal has been injured) and Lillard plays selfish which isn't wrong at all considering his roster

Cp3 is in the same space without blake BUT Redick is healthy Pierce brings it some games, and dj is too dominant downlow unlike gortat...most importantly they're coached better


It's very hard for him to do it for himself and then do it for every other player on the team every game

[dckingsfan]

Wall is responsible for literally almsot half the team points some games...
10 assist is minimum 20points + 20points wall brings
That's 40 points wall is responsible for each game
We score about 100
Wall is singlehandley responsible for about 40% of our points not counting the hockey assists...

Compare wall teammates to every other pg in the league...he has the least versatility around him...

It's very hard for him to do it for himself and then do it for every other player on the team...

That isn't true - look at Portland as an example. In almost every statistical category he wasn't playing very well - hence why we were a sub .500 team. Then he started playing better and boom.

And going to the horse's mouth - Wall said he has played line sh*t this season - just saying - you can disagree with Wall if you want.

[nate33]

Johns on track to finish this year with 20ppg 10Apg 5rpg 2spg 1bpg. 5th in the league in double doubles, 6th in triple doubles (equal with Curry). Per of 20.3, TS%51.
These are 1st team all NBA stats most seasons. If the Wizards miraculously make the playoffs, wall deserves consideration for at least 2nd team.

No they aren't. His TS% is horrible. It's the kind of shooting that absolutely kills a team. I agree that everything else (except the turnovers) is great, but you can't gloss over 51% TS%.

If your highest frequency shooter shoots at that poor of a percentage, you are going to be a bad team. It's that simple.

[deneem4]

Wall is responsible for literally almsot half the team points some games...
10 assist is minimum 20points + 20points wall brings
That's 40 points wall is responsible for each game
We score about 100
Wall is singlehandley responsible for about 40% of our points not counting the hockey assists...

Compare wall teammates to every other pg in the league...he has the least versatility around him...

It's very hard for him to do it for himself and then do it for every other player on the team...

That isn't true - look at Portland as an example. In almost every statistical category he wasn't playing very well - hence why we were a sub .500 team. Then he started playing better and boom.

And going to the horse's mouth - Wall said he has played line sh*t this season - just saying - you can disagree with Wall if you want.

ReReader I did an edit

[tontoz]

You and I can agree to disagree- Wall has been top 3 and as bad as top 10 like everyone else not named Curry that made the AllStar team. I would take Wall over everyone except Westbrook that plays point guard. Wall isn't gonna wins ring without a significantly better player or two on this team. Same with everyone 2-200 at the point guard position -

Wall has never been top 3. Only a Wizards homer would claim otherwise. His poor shooting and careless turnovers prevent him from challenging the top pgs.

I would never claim to be anything but a Wizards homer. I also read other boards and talk to fans of other team and Wall gets more respect from those guys than he does from the Wiz board. People in Portland are not as sure Lillard is better than Wall as the Wiz fans are. Review their board...they complain he shoots too much, doesn't play defense, ran off Aldridge, is friendly (too concerned about hip hop?!? Wtf is that), too many turn overs...etc. People in Clipper land where posting about the rumors of getting Kyrie for Paul...and no one sees Kyrie as top 5 anymore. My point is simply this- love the one you got. Appreciate the players on your team. I don't think it's as much of a stretch as you do that Wall is top 3. I also think players would disagree with you about the turn over issue being as big as an issue as you do. FOR EXAMPLE- Harden was the players MVP- high turn overs. Westbrook- High turn overs- Player understand that if you have the ball and try to make stuff happen the defense can get you to turn it over. To improve he has to improve his turn overs...but it doesn't disqualify him from the conversation.

GO WIZ

Westbrook and Harden both attack the basket far more than Wall. That is why they get to the foul line and the rim far more than Wall. They also have much higher scoring efficiency while also scoring at a higher volume.

Westbrook takes 7.5 shots per game inside 3 feet and gets to the foul line 7.3 times per game.

http://bkref.com/tiny/laE9V

Wall takes 5.5 shots per game inside 3 feet and gets the foul line 4.6 times per game.

http://bkref.com/tiny/zuojh




Wall routinely settles for 2 pt jumpers early in the clock even though he shoots them poorly.

[pcbothwel]

What seems obvious to me is that his 16-18ft jump shot off of a pick is pretty smooth and I dont have a problem with it. Its when he goes iso that he falls apart. Anybody have his shooting % comparing those 2?

[dlts20]

dckings, when did Wall say that he's played like crap this year? He's never said that. He said in November because he wasn't in good enough shape for the new scheme.

Nate, Jason Kidd is one of the most impactful players you will ever see and his shooting makes Wall look like Curry

[nate33]

dckings, when did Wall say that he's played like crap this year? He's never said that. He said in November because he wasn't in good enough shape for the new scheme.

Nate, Jason Kidd is one of the most impactful players you will ever see and his shooting makes Wall look like Curry

Kidd didn't shoot much. He averaged about 19 FGA's per 100 possessions during his peak. Wall is averaging about 24. It's one thing to be a bad shooter. It's another to be a bad shooter and lead your team in shot attempts.

Kidd was also a much better defender and rebounder.

I agree that Kidd is the model that Wall should try and emulate. But to do so, he needs to shoot less (particularly from midrange), rebound more, and play more consistent defense.

[dlts20]

I still think Wall is a much better scorer than Kidd so 5 more fga isn't that much. Also, Wall is always dealing with a team at the top of the league in injuries so I think he would either shoot less if we were more healthy or at least be more efficient

[dckingsfan]

dckings, when did Wall say that he's played like crap this year? He's never said that. He said in November because he wasn't in good enough shape for the new scheme.

He has said it several times this year - even at halftime of games. His words...