Official Trade Thread - Part XXX

[deneem4]

With nene on the floor we cut more...get to the line more...more off ball screens...less ball watching...he's not draymond by any means but he a very good passer from the high post position combine that with the slashing of porter and wall and not haVing a defending center posted at the rim because he's guarding nene high post...we get easier buckets downlow...

Nene when on the floor allows us more freedom downlow...while gortat on the other hand allows us more freedom midrange which is something we don't need...

Nene operates high post
Gortat operates low post...
Except gortat isnt a post move scorer if he was and was efficient at it he would be a top 5 center...
Nene is a good low post move scorer he's not that efficient but he does draw fouls which he halfway converts...

Nene isn't scared to shoot he the high post midrange he hesistates like Gorta hesistate but atleast nene tries to make the smart pass or attack off the dribble...gortat usually passes it back out and stagnates the offense and we reset or something

[nate33]

Because gortat limits our best overall offensive ability which is attacking the rim...

Prove it.

U already did when you said nene can be a top 5 center in the league when healthy and consistent...
what does nene do better than gortat???
From what i can tell he operates out the post, plays a tougher defense and he simply more versatile...
Why would a healthy nene be a top 5 center and gortat isnt? (Serious question)
That answer would tell you how gortat limits us...seriously try to answer it...like I want your opinion

Hypothetical peak consistent Nene for 33 minutes a game doesn't exist though. That guy would be a perennial all star.

I'm happy to cede the point that we would be better off with a perennial all star at center in place of Gortat. I'm sure we'd be better off with prime Duncan, or Anthony Davis as well. This isn't a revelation to anyone. But the fact remains that Gortat is still a rock solid center and arguably a better player than Wall himself. He is also a very good fit with Wall because, as I pointed out a few posts ago, a pick-and-roll offense is probably the best way of utilizing Wall's talents. This notion that Gortat is the problem is patently ridiculous.

[nate33]

With nene on the floor we cut more...get to the line more...more off ball screens...less ball watching...he's not draymond by any means but he a very good passer from the high post position combine that with the slashing of porter and wall and not haVing a defending center posted at the rim because he's guarding nene high post...we get easier buckets downlow...

The only problem is that nearly all of these points are wrong.

With Nene on the floor, the team has a lower assist percentage, a lower rebounding percentage, and they play considerably worse defense. The overall ORtg is about the same with Gortat or Nene (and Nene plays against backups).

[deneem4]

Prove it.

U already did when you said nene can be a top 5 center in the league when healthy and consistent...
what does nene do better than gortat???
From what i can tell he operates out the post, plays a tougher defense and he simply more versatile...
Why would a healthy nene be a top 5 center and gortat isnt? (Serious question)
That answer would tell you how gortat limits us...seriously try to answer it...like I want your opinion

Hypothetical peak consistent Nene for 33 minutes a game doesn't exist though. That guy would be a perennial all star.

I'm happy to cede the point that we would be better off with a perennial all star at center in place of Gortat. I'm sure we'd be better off with prime Duncan, or Anthony Davis as well. This isn't a revelation to anyone. But the fact remains that Gortat is still a rock solid center and arguably a better player than Wall himself. He is also a very good fit with Wall because, as I pointed out a few posts ago, a pick-and-roll offense is probably the best way of utilizing Wall's talents. This notion that Gortat is the problem is patently ridiculous.

But what does nene bring that's makes him a perennial allstar...he's not a great rebounder nor his he a great rim protecter...nor is he a great scorer....
Like prove to me what makes a healthy nene better than gortat? I gave you my reason ato the top of the page

[deneem4]

With nene on the floor we cut more...get to the line more...more off ball screens...less ball watching...he's not draymond by any means but he a very good passer from the high post position combine that with the slashing of porter and wall and not haVing a defending center posted at the rim because he's guarding nene high post...we get easier buckets downlow...

The only problem is that nearly all of these points are wrong.

With Nene on the floor, the team has a lower assist percentage, a lower rebounding percentage, and they play considerably worse defense. The overall ORtg is about the same with Gortat or Nene (and Nene plays against backups).

Nene plays with backups...

[deneem4]

Just answer what is it about nene that would make him a top 5 center when healthy and willing?
His aggresiveness? Decisions making? Passing?
It's not his rebounding or efficiency what is it?
Please don't dodge the question

[nate33]

Just answer what is it about nene that would make him a top 5 center when healthy and willing?
His aggresiveness? Decisions making? Passing?
It's not his rebounding or efficiency what is it?
Please don't dodge the question

Yes. His ability to handle the ball and make decisions as a first option. Gortat is only a finisher. Nene is more of a creator. You can run an offense through Nene as a 1st option, even if you don't have a great PG.

But as I keep pointing out, that doesn't make him a better fit alongside Wall. It actually makes him worse. Nene and Wall are less complimentary because they both need the ball to be effective. The Wall/Gortat combo has synergy.

[Ruzious]

Just answer what is it about nene that would make him a top 5 center when healthy and willing?
His aggresiveness? Decisions making? Passing?
It's not his rebounding or efficiency what is it?
Please don't dodge the question

Nene is a shell of what he used to be - because of the accumulated effects of his injuries. He'll still have a good game here and there, but he can't keep it up for long stretches. That's the nature of the physical issues he has.

[deneem4]

Just answer what is it about nene that would make him a top 5 center when healthy and willing?
His aggresiveness? Decisions making? Passing?
It's not his rebounding or efficiency what is it?
Please don't dodge the question

Yes. His ability to handle the ball and make decisions as a first option. Gortat is only a finisher. Nene is more of a creator. You can run an offense through Nene.

But as I keep pointing out, that doesn't make him a better fit alongside Wall. It actually makes him worse. Nene and Wall are less complimentary because they both need the ball to be effective. The Wall/Gortat combo has synergy.

You have it backwards...remember nene started along with gortat before this season...taking nene out the lineup puts a bigger burden on wall...
When is having another ball handler a bad thing?...yes nene stops the ball alot but the rest of the team moves better because they know he will find them...he isn't al jefferson...
This is what I mean by gortat is hurting us with his lack of versatility...he's reliant on Wall pick and roll to score...he's a good player, but he's just a finisher..which leave our offense predictable when he's in alot of times
....considering we don't have many play makers especially with beal in and out we need someone else to orchestrate...
Our wins show it when gortat been out...

That synergy that Wall and gortat has isn't winning games...period...

[nate33]

Just answer what is it about nene that would make him a top 5 center when healthy and willing?
His aggresiveness? Decisions making? Passing?
It's not his rebounding or efficiency what is it?
Please don't dodge the question

Yes. His ability to handle the ball and make decisions as a first option. Gortat is only a finisher. Nene is more of a creator. You can run an offense through Nene.

But as I keep pointing out, that doesn't make him a better fit alongside Wall. It actually makes him worse. Nene and Wall are less complimentary because they both need the ball to be effective. The Wall/Gortat combo has synergy.

You have it backwards...remember nene started along with gortat before this season...taking nene out the lineup puts a bigger burden on wall...
When is having another ball handler a bad thing?...yes nene stops the ball alot but the rest of the team moves better because they know he will find them...he isn't al jefferson...
This is what I mean by gortat is hurting us with his lack of versatility...he's reliant on Wall pick and roll to score...he's a good player, but he's just a finisher..which leave our offense predictable when he's in alot of times
....considering we don't have many play makers especially with beal in and out we need someone else to orchestrate...
Our wins show it when gortat been out...

That synergy that Wall and gortat has isn't winning games...period...

I've had enough of this discussion. You are impervious to logic and reason.

This hypothetical Nene that you speak of doesn't exist. Nene is not capable of being a full time starter.

[deneem4]

Yes. His ability to handle the ball and make decisions as a first option. Gortat is only a finisher. Nene is more of a creator. You can run an offense through Nene.

But as I keep pointing out, that doesn't make him a better fit alongside Wall. It actually makes him worse. Nene and Wall are less complimentary because they both need the ball to be effective. The Wall/Gortat combo has synergy.

You have it backwards...remember nene started along with gortat before this season...taking nene out the lineup puts a bigger burden on wall...
When is having another ball handler a bad thing?...yes nene stops the ball alot but the rest of the team moves better because they know he will find them...he isn't al jefferson...
This is what I mean by gortat is hurting us with his lack of versatility...he's reliant on Wall pick and roll to score...he's a good player, but he's just a finisher..which leave our offense predictable when he's in alot of times
....considering we don't have many play makers especially with beal in and out we need someone else to orchestrate...
Our wins show it when gortat been out...

That synergy that Wall and gortat has isn't winning games...period...

I've had enough of this discussion. You are impervious to logic and reason.

This hypothetical Nene that you speak of doesn't exist. Nene is not capable of being a full time starter.

I never said nene should be a full time starter...
I simply stated gortat lack of versatility hurts us...and used your example of nene (when he plays) to prove it...

You're creating this hypothetical nene...I jus needed you to admit gortat is a 1 dimensional finisher, and we need more versatility from our center postion...
If we were winning I would be wrong...but we been losing with Gortat and no nene starting
Now can we continue on who can we find this offseason to provide us with versatility down there???

[krii]

Wow. Ok I'll structure it like that: first part of my comments will be questions to you, second will be comments on your comments. Please feel free to do the same, it'd help us with the consistency and general understanding of our thought.
I'd also appreciate any sort of logical/critical thinking approach, by which I understand logical explanation of your thinking order. Some evidence: data, video, stats, article - anything that lies behind certain opinion. If it's just purely subjective 'eye-tested' evidence; or rather personal opinion on how something works it'd great to state it clearly. We wouldn't have any problems with misunderstanding each other

Spoiler:

Get rid of gortat...I don't see morris being moved or porter being moved tbh...if Beal stays I think we have to trade gortat or one of our forwards this offseason

Dude. What is it with you and Gortat hate? Marcin isn't the problem of this team, seriously. Of course there are upgrades over him on the market but he is one of the cheapest and best centers in this league (in terms of value / price relation). It's no longer Centers Era, most of them do not win games by themselves. Why would you 'get rid of Gortat' (btw. Morris/Gortat rather than morris/gortat, show some respect) when there are bigger holes in this team?

IF - and only if - there would be a great piece on the market that can be traded for Gortat I'd be okay. But it looks like you just want to change Gortat for ANYONE because he isn't show-off like some other players in the league. Like, seriously - I'd prefer to have decent and stable SF/PF or great backups for each of the position, rather than Valunciunas in the roster.

Btw. read this post by Kev:
http://kevinbroom.com/2016/03/16/the-surprising-problem-for-the-wizards/

Because as good is gortat is he isn't a good fit...
He limits wall ability...Wall has to create for gortat...Wall is responsible for gortat production probably 70% of the time...
Wall is our center piece and he's need spacing to excel...
Our team Need spacing to succeed
Gortat isnt a problem on an individual level...he's good at alot of things...butut he's not great at the things we need

Good all around centers are hard to find...you're right...but he's not a top rebounder nor rim protecter he has great offensive efficiency but he's not an offensive center...

Gortat is good...bUT we don't have to the team for him...

Questions:
1. Why isn't Gortat a good fit?
2. How is he limiting Wall's ability?
3. What is that exceptional that Wall (PG) is creating for Gortat (C)?
4. How many centers in the league (probably?) produce over 30% of their points by themselves? How many of them finish with similar efficiency? How many of them is 'dependent' on PG as you stated it?
5. How many centers are better rebounders than him? (purely this season)
6. How many of them has higher offensive efficiency? What other factors are making center "an offensive center"?
7. Is there any better available rim protector that would fit Wizards and wouldn't cost entire team to get him?

Comments:
Of course there are better centers than Gortat. Heck, quite a few of them! Some are younger and have higher ceilings, some thrive to deliver higher numbers for better teams. But dude, it isn't online manager - you have to structure your team in a way that balance team finances, chemistry etc. Gortat will never be Shaq, nor Howard. But heck - he is producing, he is efficient, he is finishing, he IS a great fit. Nate gave you great explanation why Wall is actually using his abilities with Gortat on a court, rather than limits it.
Btw. of course this team needs spacing to succeed. Spacing isn't just GSW style of spacing though.

But we're losing! And gortat has been healthy most the whole season...guys keep saying how good an efficient gortat is but a focused nene gives us a better chance of winning
Wall barely attacks on the pick and roll with Gortatbecause gortat goes to the basket...gortat is a paint center he would be great if we had love, anderson or horford...but we dont...

We need to space our floor out...for the simple fact our offense revolves around a 1 dimensional bigman should tell you something...

We need to run a more open floor offense...gortat needs to learn how to operate in the post and I don't mean jus scoring but passing as well,
Nene does this to perfection when he wants...
Wall is a great slaher...so is Porter and beal but if we have gortat sitting in the paint, we render that useless...

Questions:
1. Is Gortat the main factor why this team is losing? How? Why?
2. Provide some data that shows that Wizards are more efficient with Nene on a constant basis, if you could. Not single games - bigger sample. In single games the efficiency numbers of Kris Humphries looked like prime Shaq ones.
3. Is Gortat the reason why Wall is not going to the basket?
4. Is Gortat really one-dimensional? What dimension is it? Offense? Defense? PnR? Rebounding? Efficiency?
5. How many centers actually pass better than Gortat? How many of them plays any similar team-tactics that would prove them being better passers?
6. Is Gortat game making Beal, Porter and Wall worse?

Comments:
Yip. We are losing, it's totally Gortat's fault. He is just producing as top 10 centers, nothing unusual. He is barely helping the team, mostly hurting their presence. What a bum!

Because gortat limits our best overall offensive ability which is attacking the rim...

Prove it.

U already did when you said nene can be a top 5 center in the league when healthy and consistent...
what does nene do better than gortat???
From what i can tell he operates out the post, plays a tougher defense and he simply more versatile...
Why would a healthy nene be a top 5 center and gortat isnt? (Serious question)
That answer would tell you how gortat limits us...seriously try to answer it...like I want your opinion

Just comment:
Nene when healthy is a King-Kong. WHEN healthy he is able to single-handle break league in the half. WHEN healthy he is kicking Chuck Norris ass without problems. WHEN healthy he is able to conquer Europe by his own. When healthy he is this monster that someone saw in Loch Ness. He has been seen in some mountains and people called him The Big Foot, Yeti and so on. He is probably more talented that most of the perennial all-stars of 2000's' 5's COMBINED.
Yeah. Well, there is a problem. He is healthy once a time. Even if healthy he is rarely playing up to his standards. When he wants to, he can just purely dominate anyone in the league. I am pretty sure he could play against Shaq and actually be able to PLAY with success, back in a days of course. The problem is that this extremely talented Nene almost never shows up. He is there once a time, killing teams, kicking Noah's ass and delivering memes-like performances. Does it mean that on a daily-basis he is better than Gortat? I wouldn't say so. Gortat is heck of stability, efficiency and delivery. He is proving that in 2005 draft he should have been top 15 pick. Nene when he wants to and when healthy is proving that there were only a few more talented bigs in the NBA in the last 25 years. Subtle difference I believe. IMO 90% of people in here would love to have healthy, motivated Nene, able to play up to his standards every single game. Heck, they would probably call him AS candidate every single year. But reality is that this Nene isn't there most of the times.

I really don't want to dig it deeper.

[deneem4]

Gortat is hurting the team because his lack of versatility on offense...his inability to operate out of the high post and create for other members of his team, make him 1 dimensional offensively...

With a pg that's not a great shooter you want to allow as much paint space as possible for him to attack...gortat limits that because he's positioned in the lowpost

with a SG who is a knockdown shooter u wan to have the paint open when he decides to put it on the floor on the drives...gortat limits that because he has a tendency of standing low post when not on a pnr

With a sf who's essential a cutter, u wan to have capable passers that can find him...gortat isnt a great passer and he's also positioned in the low post

Wizards have a better winning percentage without gortat, regardless of any comment you want to make on it

There are many centers that pass better than gortat
Gasol
Gasol
Bogut
Noah
Cousins
Sullinger
Horford

Gortat limits wall because wall is primarily responsible for his offensive output...gortat not a great offensive rebounder so he doesn't get many put back opportunities nor is he effective in the post...
Yes gortat is efficient but to what degree has it translated into wins???
Gortat hasn't shown he can substain that efficiency with a higher number of attempts...
An offensive center is a center than can create offensive for himself...gortat can't do that so no he's not an offensive center jus a very efficient pick and roll finisher...as we have learned 1/2 the season that can only get you so far

Next step?
Get David Lee and or Spencer hawes/Myers Leonard

[TheSecretWeapon]

Gortat is hurting the team because his lack of versatility on offense...his inability to operate out of the high post and create for other members of his team, make him 1 dimensional offensively...

With a pg that's not a great shooter you want to allow as much paint space as possible for him to attack...gortat limits that because he's positioned in the lowpost

So far this season, Gortat's been on the floor for nearly 3700 possessions. He's used (by shooting, getting fouled or committing a turnover) not quite 700 (a usage rate of 18.6%). According to the NBA's tracking data, the Wizards have run a post-up for Gortat 116 times -- not quite twice a game. Post-ups account for about 17% of Gortat's possession usage. He's been hit as the roll man in screen/roll sets 187 times -- about 27% of the time.

Gortat's most frequent offensive play type: cutting to the hoop. He's been hit as a cutter 256 times -- 6.7 times per 48 minutes (compare with Nenê at 4.3 times per 48 minutes).

This would suggest that Gortat is NOT positioned in the low post as a matter of routine, but that he's used in a variety of ways on the offensive end.

There are many centers that pass better than gortat
Gasol
Gasol
Bogut
Noah
Cousins
Sullinger
Horford

Gortat ranks 29th among centers in assists per 100 team possessions. Passing is not his strength.

[nate33]

Gortat ranks 29th among centers in assists per 100 team possessions. Passing is not his strength.

And that's okay because he is such an efficient finisher with a high conversion rate and a low turnover rate.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Gortat ranks 29th among centers in assists per 100 team possessions. Passing is not his strength.

And that's okay because he is such an efficient finisher with a high conversion rate and a low turnover rate.

Yep. Overall impact is what matters. Gortat's is good. Not great...good.

[gambitx777]

Would any one consider,
Morris, beal, Kelly, and the rights to thomas for Boogie and MaClemore.
OR
Morris, Beal, 2018 unprotected first and the rights to Thomas for Boogie.
Plus with either deal we should be able to still go out and sign KD.

[deneem4]

Gortat ranks 29th among centers in assists per 100 team possessions. Passing is not his strength.

And that's okay because he is such an efficient finisher with a high conversion rate and a low turnover rate.

Dudley is an excellent 3pt shooter with a low turnover rate...but what does he do that make things easier for the rest of the guys???...that's the point I'm making

like I said he's a good player and great at the limited things he does but it's not the things we need to be successful with this roster...
We a big guy that create for others or create for himself and get the defense attention...if he can't do those things then we need to find a way to keep him out the paint so our guards and wings can attack the basket

[payitforward]

Why are you completely ignoring the cap space? You get two all-stars on extremely cap friendly deals in a situation where the cap is continuing to rise BEFORE these stars are up for an extension, meaning you can completely load your team and then go beyond the cap if necessary to extend Wall and Cousins.

It's good to have more cap space, you are right. But in your deal it only comes from Beal vanishing from the roster. I'm not against trading Beal, and at this point I certainly wouldn't max him. You also underestimate Porter.

Plus, you leave us no young players aside from Oubre. We have no 2016 picks, neither round. After your deal, we have no picks in 2017 either (our R2 pick has already been flushed by Ernie, can't remember in what trade).

In fact, unless I'm missing something, *all* we have is those 3 players: Wall, Cousins and Oubre. And cap space to sign FAs. Hence, we can't make any other trades either. This is not how you build a team.

...you can go after a Horford or Batum, or maybe even lure Durant to form a big 3. There's a lot of flexibility with how you can play it.

If you start w/ (essentially) 2 players, the more players you acquire in the last 1/2 - 1/3 of their careers, the more you guarantee your decline. If you are the Spurs, and you already have a high level of achievement out of your roster, then you can add a few guys in that way in order to *extend* your time on top of the mountain.

...With our current core right now, we're going to have enough for one max contract addition to go with our core of Wall/Beal/Gortat and if its not a home run then its essentially game over--that's the team you've got for the remainder of Walls contract. Pau Gasol is the only "move the needle" free agent we could get on a short term basis. Everyone else--Horford, Ryan Anderson, Batum--they are all going to be looking for as many years as they can get.

Yes, you're right -- and that's what Ernie Grunfeld's work has brought us to. But there's no magic way around it. That's where we are: game over. Mistakes are costly, and he's made too many of them. Now, if we get the dream-come-true savior (Durant), then it's time to recalc. Personally, I can't see it happening -- but, hey, I don't have a crystal ball. If I'm wrong about that, then I'm wrong about it. Won't be the first time I've ever been wrong. All the same... I just can't see it happening.

[payitforward]

He's not defensive as bogut or mosgov adams
He's not offensive as val or vuc kanter
Not a drummond dwight Whiteside jordan

He's doesn't benefit the rest of the guys on the floor with his production...we need versatility down there

What you are really saying is we have crap for a GM - could have had both Drummond and/or Whiteside.

Everyone knows I think Ernie is a terrible GM -- but, no, we couldn't have had Whiteside. Sure we could have taken him instead of Seraphin at #17 or instead of Booker at #23: he went to the Kings high in R2. But the Kings cut him; he wasn't ready for the NBA. We'd have cut him too. He came back as a FA 5 years later!

We could have had Drummond, it's true. But, were you advocating that? He went #8 in 2012: he was very young, very raw, and I don't think anyone had him in the top 5. I remember thinking, and writing, that there was a chance he'd be the best player in the draft after Anthony Davis, and I'd say that's how it's turned out. "A chance," however doesn't mean you *take* that chance.

So, even though as I just said everyone knows I think Ernie is an absolutely horrible GM, I don't ding him for passing on Drummond either. Or for taking Beal for that matter.