Is Wall Top 5 PG?

Post #701 » by **nate33** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:15 pm

dlts20 wrote:I still think Wall is a much better scorer than Kidd so 5 more fga isn't that much. Also, Wall is always dealing with a team at the top of the league in injuries so I think he would either shoot less if we were more healthy or at least be more efficient

You may think so, but the stats say you are wrong. A 51% TS% is terrible. One absolutely should not shoot 24 times per 100 possessions with a TS% that low. Wall has shot this often and this poorly in 3 of his last 4 seasons, so it's hard to blame injuries. Last year was the outlier, he shot just 21 times per 100 possessions. It happened to be his best year as a pro by most advanced metrics. (He was roughly as good in 2012/13, but played only 49 games.)

deneem4 · Post #702 » by **deneem4** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:26 pm

nate33 wrote:
dlts20 wrote:I still think Wall is a much better scorer than Kidd so 5 more fga isn't that much. Also, Wall is always dealing with a team at the top of the league in injuries so I think he would either shoot less if we were more healthy or at least be more efficient

You may think so, but the stats say you are wrong. A 51% TS% is terrible. One absolutely should not shoot 24 times per 100 possessions with a TS% that low. Wall has shot this often and this poorly in 3 of his last 4 seasons, so it's hard to blame injuries. Last year was the outlier, he shot just 21 times per 100 possessions. It happened to be his best year as a pro by most advanced metrics. (He was roughly as good in 2012/13, but played only 49 games.)

Wall problem is he doesn't get to the line like other star guards...that's it...

CobraCommander · Post #703 » by **CobraCommander** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:47 am

Ok tonigh wasn't Classic Wall...but a he filled the stat sheet-

tontoz · Post #704 » by **tontoz** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:39 am

Only 3 turnovers away from back to back quadruple doubles.

tontoz · Post #705 » by **tontoz** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:13 pm

I started a thread on the player comparison board asking who should fill out the top 5 for pgs. Currently Lowry has 25 votes, Lillard 21, and Wall 4. Irving, Jackson, and Isaiah have 1. The results were about what I figured. Among most non-Wizards fans, Wall is not seen as top 5.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1432058

payitforward · Post #706 » by **payitforward** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:23 pm

I weighed in:
... can't figure out how to link to it. A few posts down on p.1 of the thread....

payitforward · Post #707 » by **payitforward** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:29 pm

tontoz wrote:I started a thread on the player comparison board asking who should fill out the top 5 for pgs. Currently Lowry has 25 votes, Lillard 21, and Wall 4. Irving, Jackson, and Isaiah have 1. The results were about what I figured. Among most non-Wizards fans, Wall is not seen as top 5.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1432058

"Wall is not seen as top 5" -- not that I think you disagree, I just want to point out that this is a matter of analysis not of how someone is "seen." E.g. if you look at Lowry's numbers, or even at Rondo's numbers or Rubio's, the overall higher level of their play jumps out at you.

tontoz · Post #708 » by **tontoz** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:23 am

payitforward wrote:
tontoz wrote:I started a thread on the player comparison board asking who should fill out the top 5 for pgs. Currently Lowry has 25 votes, Lillard 21, and Wall 4. Irving, Jackson, and Isaiah have 1. The results were about what I figured. Among most non-Wizards fans, Wall is not seen as top 5.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1432058

"Wall is not seen as top 5" -- not that I think you disagree, I just want to point out that this is a matter of analysis not of how someone is "seen." E.g. if you look at Lowry's numbers, or even at Rondo's numbers or Rubio's, the overall higher level of their play jumps out at you.

Do you really think the people here that claim Wall is a top 5 pg are analyzing the numbers?

deneem4 · Post #709 » by **deneem4** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:29 am

tontoz wrote:I started a thread on the player comparison board asking who should fill out the top 5 for pgs. Currently Lowry has 25 votes, Lillard 21, and Wall 4. Irving, Jackson, and Isaiah have 1. The results were about what I figured. Among most non-Wizards fans, Wall is not seen as top 5.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1432058

Or maybe Toronto has the biggest fan base on this site?

CobraCommander · Post #710 » by **CobraCommander** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:56 am

deneem4 wrote:
tontoz wrote:I started a thread on the player comparison board asking who should fill out the top 5 for pgs. Currently Lowry has 25 votes, Lillard 21, and Wall 4. Irving, Jackson, and Isaiah have 1. The results were about what I figured. Among most non-Wizards fans, Wall is not seen as top 5.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1432058

Or maybe Toronto has the biggest fan base on this site?

What makes you think that-

What I think is Wizards fans are somewhat haters- there really isn't a way to know if he is top 5 because it's somewhat subjective. We all know I he is pretty good and that he is better than Most. But the difference between the 3-9 is very subjective and dependent on the players around them. For example Kyrie and Kevin Love where considered significantly better before they teamed up with Lebron...so did they fall off or is their "ranking" dependent on how the play within the team concept? I distinctly remember all these wizards fans saying they would like to have Kyrie over John but...now? I would bet Lebron and Love would give Kyrie and two draft picks for John. The good thing is if John ain't top 5 and he is this good at this age he could get better... Wouldn't that be great-

deneem4 · Post #711 » by **deneem4** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:02 am

At the end of the day wall has the least amount of talent around him compared to russy,cp3,curry,lowry,Rubio,rondo,

With the exception of curry it can be a legit debate if those guys are the best guys on they're team...
Rubio and rondo are nowhere near wall level...

Rubio has 3 of the top 10 young guys in the league
Rondo has one of the best centers in the league
Neither have a chance at playoffs

Wall simply has to do everything for us to win this season, especially with beal out...he has no one on the team to tht can take the defensive attention off him...every other top 7 point guard do

CobraCommander · Post #712 » by **CobraCommander** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:15 am

tontoz wrote:
payitforward wrote:
tontoz wrote:I started a thread on the player comparison board asking who should fill out the top 5 for pgs. Currently Lowry has 25 votes, Lillard 21, and Wall 4. Irving, Jackson, and Isaiah have 1. The results were about what I figured. Among most non-Wizards fans, Wall is not seen as top 5.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1432058

"Wall is not seen as top 5" -- not that I think you disagree, I just want to point out that this is a matter of analysis not of how someone is "seen." E.g. if you look at Lowry's numbers, or even at Rondo's numbers or Rubio's, the overall higher level of their play jumps out at you.

Do you really think the people here that claim Wall is a top 5 pg are analyzing the numbers?

I appreciate that you analyze the numbers and I do take them into consideration but I know that being a fan sways some people to hold their players to a higher than reasonable standard and others to give them leeway when they make mistakes.

All you guys that think that the numbers telling you Rondo and Rubio are better than John invalidate your argument to someone like me. You are the same guys saying the Wiz are better with Temple on the floor than Beal. You think LL better than KoolMoeD. Hell-some of you may even be ballers and you would have voted for Harden as MVP last year over Curry. I get it...there is some number somewhere that tells you that what you are READING about Rubio and Rondo make them better than Wall. When the GM of Timberwolves wants to start Zach at point and has been shopping Rubio for over a year. AND Rubio isn't even the leader of his team when John would take that team to play off levels (IMO) and LEAD that team. And Rondo's attitude makes him a team MUCH Better than wall in some distant bizarre dimision that doesn't include Danny Ainge, George Karl, Mark Cuban or Ray Allen.

So if your analysis of the numbers tell you that Rondo or Rubio are better than John and you worked for me...I would make you have you queries doubled checked and your analysis audited before I fired your....for letting misleading data get turned into information and presenting this information as facts which clearly contradict observable evidence.

deneem4 · Post #713 » by **deneem4** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:09 am

Wall would make Timberwolves and kings legit contenders...
Having gay mclemore and cassipi(a real stretch 4) on the wings with cousins getting the defense attention

Or the transition game with Lavine, Wiggins and towns...

There aren't too many point guards that legit makes his players better...wall is one...period

He jus happen to be stuck with a coach who has the worse career losing percentage in the league...along with a dysfunctional organization...
We're truly wasting his young years...
Since he's been drafted we've blown every draft pick except 2 and were on the way to blowing another in oubre because of the staff incompetence..

We've lost in free agency because of a pipe dream of durant coming here...when we could've built for the present and made moves when the time came...

Wall is probably the only point guard who has always been the best player on his team for his entire career....
With the exception of curry and Lillard ...he probably will improve every other top pg team..
(yes he will fit the thunder better than Westbrook)

deneem4 · Post #714 » by **deneem4** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:11 am

CobraCommander wrote:
tontoz wrote:
payitforward wrote:"Wall is not seen as top 5" -- not that I think you disagree, I just want to point out that this is a matter of analysis not of how someone is "seen." E.g. if you look at Lowry's numbers, or even at Rondo's numbers or Rubio's, the overall higher level of their play jumps out at you.

Do you really think the people here that claim Wall is a top 5 pg are analyzing the numbers?

I appreciate that you analyze the numbers and I do take them into consideration but I know that being a fan sways some people to hold their players to a higher than reasonable standard and others to give them leeway when they make mistakes.

All you guys that think that the numbers telling you Rondo and Rubio are better than John invalidate your argument to someone like me. You are the same guys saying the Wiz are better with Temple on the floor than Beal. You think LL better than KoolMoeD. Hell-some of you may even be ballers and you would have voted for Harden as MVP last year over Curry. I get it...there is some number somewhere that tells you that what you are READING about Rubio and Rondo make them better than Wall. When the GM of Timberwolves wants to start Zach at point and has been shopping Rubio for over a year. AND Rubio isn't even the leader of his team when John would take that team to play off levels (IMO) and LEAD that team. And Rondo's attitude makes him a team MUCH Better than wall in some distant bizarre dimision that doesn't include Danny Ainge, George Karl, Mark Cuban or Ray Allen.

So if your analysis of the numbers tell you that Rondo or Rubio are better than John and you worked for me...I would make you have you queries doubled checked and your analysis audited before I fired your....for letting misleading data get turned into information and presenting this information as facts which clearly contradict observable evidence.

Some of the fan base is anal-istic ...excuse them

deneem4 · Post #715 » by **deneem4** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:18 am

Some stars are batman
Some stars are robin
Wall more like Xavier...

CobraCommander · Post #716 » by **CobraCommander** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:13 am

deneem4 wrote:Some stars are batman
Some stars are robin
Wall more like Xavier...

And Nene is the broke Bishop from an alternate universe -

tontoz · Post #717 » by **tontoz** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:17 pm

The Wizards as a team have a TS of 54%. Wall's TS is 51% and he takes the most shots. It doesn't take a math genius to see his poor and frequent shooting hurts the team.

And lets not forget he has 17 turnovers in the last two games.

deneem4 · Post #718 » by **deneem4** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:48 pm

tontoz wrote:The Wizards as a team have a TS of 54%. Wall's TS is 51% and he takes the most shots. It doesn't take a math genius to see his poor and frequent shooting hurts the team.

And lets not forget he has 17 turnovers in the last two games.

He also has the most points steals blocks rebounds and assist in the last 2 games...

tontoz · Post #719 » by **tontoz** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:57 pm

deneem4 wrote:
tontoz wrote:The Wizards as a team have a TS of 54%. Wall's TS is 51% and he takes the most shots. It doesn't take a math genius to see his poor and frequent shooting hurts the team.

And lets not forget he has 17 turnovers in the last two games.

He also has the most points steals blocks rebounds and assist in the last 2 games...

So i guess that makes it ok to have 17 turnovers, right?

He took 36 shots the last two games, most on the team by far. He should have the most points.

dlts20 · Post #720 » by **dlts20** » Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:23 pm

TS and things of such aren't great measurements without the total picture. First off we have the worst coaching staff in the league. 2nd he's played in a crap system with 2 low post bigs clogging the lane for the majority of his career. He also has literally been coached up by Witt and Cassell his whole career to take the most inefficient shot in the game and unlike Sam, that is not his natural style.

Then you look at his teams always being full of injuries and guys who can't create for themselves. There have been some exceptions but for the most part guys are less efficient when they have to do more. Curry, Lowry, Lillard are all helped a ton by having great SG's who are always good and most of all available to play. Again, Beal has only started like 23 games this year and he's been hurt or limited on half of them.

2 arguments I can't buy is Wall shoots too much and he's not better than the guys in that poll. 1st off polls like that are always going to favor scorers or winners. We have underachieved this year while he's also seen as the weakest scorer in the group so he has no chance to win that poll.

Also don't tell me Wall shoots too much when you can't name 5 guys in the whole league who are more pass first than him. He's a true pass first pg and has actually passed up some good looks in the lane just to over pass