Signed By Indiana - The Jeremy Lamb Thread

[antique0o0]

IMO, the reason Lamb was replaced by Troy is that now Al Jefferson is coming off the bench.
Al and Frank aren't really good defensively. The second unit needs better perimeter defense. Though I don't think Troy is a better defender. Troy could shoot 3s and space the floor.

[JDR720]

would anyone want to try and move up in the draft with Lamb? or just trade him for a pick?

[UNCNYC]

would anyone want to try and move up in the draft with Lamb? or just trade him for a pick?

Doubt we can get anything more than a second rounder for Lamb.

[yosemiteben]

Don't quote me as saying "advanced stats are misleading" because I said no such thing. You misconstrued my comment and took offense as you always do because you're sensitive. I never said "advanced stats are misleading in a previous post. Stop that Yosemite. You're a mod. You gotta do better. I said skew and I wasn't saying it in a negative light if you paid attention.

So you are trying to draw a distinction between "skewed" and "misleading"?

Whatever point you were trying to make there is applicable as a counter to your arguments here, and your whining that I misinterpreted what you said is silly.

And you don't get the benefit of the doubt given your constant trolling on here. If I didn't have to constantly guard against your trolling I would just take what you say at face value, but you've proven many times that we can't do that.

[catch20two]

Don't quote me as saying "advanced stats are misleading" because I said no such thing. You misconstrued my comment and took offense as you always do because you're sensitive. I never said "advanced stats are misleading in a previous post. Stop that Yosemite. You're a mod. You gotta do better. I said skew and I wasn't saying it in a negative light if you paid attention.

So you are trying to draw a distinction between "skewed" and "misleading"?

Whatever point you were trying to make there is applicable as a counter to your arguments here, and your whining that I misinterpreted what you said is silly.

And you don't get the benefit of the doubt given your constant trolling on here. If I didn't have to constantly guard against your trolling I would just take what you say at face value, but you've proven many times that we can't do that.

We're 13th in the NBA in RPG. Advanced stats sure has a way of skewing things.

There you go, my exact quote. Skew and mislead have different meanings in this context.

Advanced stats have a way of skewing Lamb's numbers and making him appear to be one of our best defenders and best overall players not just offensively. Advanced stats make Lamb look pretty valuable to our success. I happen to agree with it. And I wouldn't call 20mpg in over 40 games a small sample size.

[Liver_Pooty]

would anyone want to try and move up in the draft with Lamb? or just trade him for a pick?

Agree with UNC. Lamb doesn't really have much value right now. Would much rather hold onto him and see if he develops

[yosemiteben]

Catch, I'm starting to think you don't know the definition of the word skew.

Skew: make biased or distorted in a way that is regarded as inaccurate, unfair, or misleading.

Skewed = Misleading

[catch20two]

Catch, I'm starting to think you don't know the definition of the word skew.

Skew: make biased or distorted in a way that is regarded as inaccurate, unfair, or misleading.

Skewed = Misleading

Yes because you told me that we're on track to be the best defensive rebounding teams in NBA history based on advanced stats but we're 13th in the league in rebounding in raw stats. But however context you want to use it and contradict yourself over and over, I'm off it.

[yosemiteben]

Wow

[mrknowitall215]

I think my issue with advanced stats specifically on this board is that posters only use it when it's convenient to the narrative they want to push. I was told on this forum that DRPM was the best way to rate a defender. If that's the case, Lamb is a better perimeter defender than Lin and Daniels. Lamb's DRPM is +0.32 to Lin's -0.04 and Daniels' -1.29. If you use defensive ratings and opponent FG% as well, the team performs better defensively when Lamb is on the floor in comparison to Lin or Daniels based on the info I've seen 'catch20two' present via NBA.com/stats

I'm not here to say that Lamb is a good defender, but I just dislike the inconsistency of when to use advanced stats on the forum, because a lot of people only use it to support their narrative and dismiss it when it doesn't. That's hypocrisy

[yosemiteben]

Second units generally are inferior offensively. If a player plays exclusively against second units, one would expect higher defensive metrics. Thus why every member of our second unit has a superior DRTG than every member of our first unit.

[yosemiteben]

I was told on this forum that DRPM was the best way to rate a defender.

(A) DRPM is not a good metric for guards, note how there are only two guards in the top 40 using that stat.

(B) DRPM ignores context, so it does not create an apples to apples comparison when limited PT players that only play against second units are compared to players that routinely play against first units or closing groups (so Lamb vs. Lin).

As to your point about DRTGs and shooting percentages, second units generally are inferior offensively. If a player plays exclusively against second units, one would expect higher defensive metrics. Thus why every member of our second unit has a superior DRTG than every member of our first unit.

It is a totally fair point to explore context for the use of advanced stats. Catch's claim that our overall rebounding numbers (taking into account our offensive rebounding) somehow diminishes the veracity of the claim that we are an all time great defensive rebounding team based on our DRB% just shows that he doesn't understand the stats.

There is no hypocrisy in saying that the advanced stats supporting our defensive rebounding are reliable but there are flaws in using DRTG to support Lamb's impact on defense.

[mrknowitall215]

Second units generally are inferior offensively. If a player plays exclusively against second units, one would expect higher defensive metrics. Thus why every member of our second unit has a superior DRTG than every member of our first unit.

This is what I'm saying about the endless hypocrisy. I'm comparing Lamb's numbers to bench players of the Hornets, Lin and Daniels, not the starters. FYI, MKG, Kemba, and Batum all have better DRPMs than the bench players. You're excuses are doltish

[mrknowitall215]

I was told on this forum that DRPM was the best way to rate a defender.

(A) DRPM is not a good metric for guards, note how there are only two guards in the top 40 using that stat.

(B) DRPM ignores context, so it does not create an apples to apples comparison when limited PT players that only play against second units are compared to players that routinely play against first units or closing groups (so Lamb vs. Lin).

So, DRPM is a good metric for bigs, which would make Spencer Hawes our best defensive anchor, right?

If DRPM ignores context, then how is it the best metric to rate a defensive player? I think it was you whom used this metric avidly to make your case for Zeller being a top 5 defender last year too

[yosemiteben]

Second units generally are inferior offensively. If a player plays exclusively against second units, one would expect higher defensive metrics. Thus why every member of our second unit has a superior DRTG than every member of our first unit.

This is what I'm saying about the endless hypocrisy. I'm comparing Lamb's numbers to bench players of the Hornets, Lin and Daniels, not the starters. FYI, MKG, Kemba, and Batum all have better DRPMs than the bench players. You're excuses are doltish

Lin is in our closing group, so it's not apples to apples there.

If you're comparing to Daniels, his sample size is extremely small and no one is really arguing that Daniels is the better defender.

What you view as excuses I view as actually interpreting the stats.

[mrknowitall215]

Catch's claim that our overall rebounding numbers (taking into account our offensive rebounding) somehow diminishes the veracity of the claim that we are an all time great defensive rebounding team based on our DRB% just shows that he doesn't understand the stats.

I went back and read the exchange between you and 'catch20two'. Nowhere does he say that we're a poor rebounding team or question the veracity of your claim. He just claimed that it was interesting how we could be a all-time great DRB% team but only 13th in rebounds per game in the NBA as a team. You took that presumption and ran with it as a defense-mechanism

There is no hypocrisy in saying that the advanced stats supporting our defensive rebounding are reliable but there are flaws in using DRTG to support Lamb's impact on defense.

I gave you a lot more defensive stats than defensive rating that would support Lamb's impact on defense. There you go eliminating context to push your narrative. I used three advanced defensive metrics that would say that we're a better defensive team with Lamb on the floor versus Lin and Daniels

[yosemiteben]

So, DRPM is a good metric for bigs, which would make Spencer Hawes our best defensive anchor, right?

It is a better metric for bigs than guards, yes. It is not a perfect stat. You could, you know, actually look into it yourself.

If DRPM ignores context, then how is it the best metric to rate a defensive player? I think it was you whom used this metric avidly to make your case for Zeller being a top 5 defender last year too

The flaw I was pointing out with regard to context was that it did not consider if a player was playing against first units or second units. That doesn't matter as much when a player is playing more minutes because he would have to play against both, but Lamb doesn't.

You may recall that Zeller started, so the claim that he gets an artificial bump against second units doesn't apply to him.

[mrknowitall215]

Second units generally are inferior offensively. If a player plays exclusively against second units, one would expect higher defensive metrics. Thus why every member of our second unit has a superior DRTG than every member of our first unit.

This is what I'm saying about the endless hypocrisy. I'm comparing Lamb's numbers to bench players of the Hornets, Lin and Daniels, not the starters. FYI, MKG, Kemba, and Batum all have better DRPMs than the bench players. You're excuses are doltish

Lin is in our closing group, so it's not apples to apples there.

If you're comparing to Daniels, his sample size is extremely small and no one is really arguing that Daniels is the better defender.

What you view as excuses I view as actually interpreting the stats.

Last time I checked, we have a top 5 defense in the 4th quarter, so if Lin is in the closing group that should only help his case

You desperately reach and come up incompetent often when I debate with you because you're too contradictive to the very excuses you use to push your narrative when they are reversed back at you

[mrknowitall215]

So, DRPM is a good metric for bigs, which would make Spencer Hawes our best defensive anchor, right?

It is a better metric for bigs than guards, yes. It is not a perfect stat. You could, you know, actually look into it yourself.

If DRPM ignores context, then how is it the best metric to rate a defensive player? I think it was you whom used this metric avidly to make your case for Zeller being a top 5 defender last year too

The flaw I was pointing out with regard to context was that it did not consider if a player was playing against first units or second units. That doesn't matter as much when a player is playing more minutes because he would have to play against both, but Lamb doesn't.

You may recall that Zeller started, so the claim that he gets an artificial bump against second units doesn't apply to him.

However, this very stat supports the starting guards over the backup guards, so your 2nd unit excuse is null & void

[yosemiteben]

Do you think I am making up the view that DRPM is a better metric for bigs than guards? Go bring that up in the stats boards and see what response you get.

Do you think I am making up the view that DRTG is flawed when applied on an individual basis generally, and especially to a player that plays limited minutes against second units? Go bring that up in the stats boards and see what response you get.