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Political Roundtable Part VIII

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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1821 » by FAH1223 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:39 am

dckingsfan wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/NYMag/status/711033371946852352[/tweet]

Massive tax cuts for the wealthy, cut all social programs, cut education, destroy the state budget!!

Neo-Liberalism for America! Forever! :clap:


Well, at least you picked a one sided article - no mention of Illinois :)

:lol:

Just cause the article mentioned two states doesn't mean Dems haven't shyt the bed either.

But the fact that the Senate Majority Leader and the Speaker of the House are advocating for the same policies on a federal level spells disaster.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1822 » by dckingsfan » Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:49 am

FAH1223 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/NYMag/status/711033371946852352[/tweet]

Massive tax cuts for the wealthy, cut all social programs, cut education, destroy the state budget!!

Neo-Liberalism for America! Forever! :clap:


Well, at least you picked a one sided article - no mention of Illinois :)

:lol:

Just cause the article mentioned two states doesn't mean Dems haven't shyt the bed either.

But the fact that the Senate Majority Leader and the Speaker of the House are advocating for the same policies on a federal level spells disaster.

And Bernie (and now dragging Hillary along) are advocating policies that have decimated far more states and utterly decimated the federal budget. And Reid wouldn't even consider steps to make entitlements whole.

Kind of like we don't have a lot of good choices right now :)
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1823 » by fishercob » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:48 pm

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPmk7I0A8k8[/youtube]
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1824 » by montestewart » Sun Mar 20, 2016 7:33 pm

crackhed wrote:open letter to donald trump

by glen beck

I know that any man with as much success and power as you have, to spend any of his limited and valuable time, tweeting all night and day after day for months, like a 14 year old boy, means, to me,
that someone must have hurt you badly in your past.

I have been there Donald. I know.

No one will say it, and you certainly won't admit it, but my guess is, you were deeply hurt or abused when you were young.

It explains your entire act.

It is as if you stopped maturing in the 8th grade. You are a 14 year old boy trapped in a 70 year old body.


Hurts Trump or helps Trump?

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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1825 » by nate33 » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:56 pm

Eyewitness account of a Trump rally by an independent, uncommitted voter:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q6jHad-XG0&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1826 » by nate33 » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:04 pm

montestewart wrote:
crackhed wrote:open letter to donald trump

by glen beck

I know that any man with as much success and power as you have, to spend any of his limited and valuable time, tweeting all night and day after day for months, like a 14 year old boy, means, to me,
that someone must have hurt you badly in your past.

I have been there Donald. I know.

No one will say it, and you certainly won't admit it, but my guess is, you were deeply hurt or abused when you were young.

It explains your entire act.

It is as if you stopped maturing in the 8th grade. You are a 14 year old boy trapped in a 70 year old body.


Hurts Trump or helps Trump?

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For a while, Beck hurt Trump, because before all of this, Beck had at least some credibility as a non-establishment guy. Some of the rank and file respect his opinion (or at least they used to).

At this point, Beck seems to have lost his grip on reality. He may honestly be in need of psychiatric help. I don't think his further rants are doing anything but hurt himself. His radio show and media company are hemorrhaging money and he will soon be off the air entirely. It's really strange what has happened to him.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1827 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:06 pm

Trump effect on Beck :) :devil: :)
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1828 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:24 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:And then there is Bernie's SS promise to increase SS spending... and he is pulling Hillary with him.
http://tinyurl.com/zvebze3

So, basically allow SS to go bankrupt - smh. I expected a bit more of her.

The estimates are that both the Sanders and Clinton proposals would suck out 10 to 15 Trillion over the next 50 to 75 years... remember that shrinking pie for all other programs like infrastructure...

All these crazy ideas (including crazy Republican ideas like permanent war in the Middle East) will persist until there's a collapse of the dollar and people finally get serious. It's a shame that it's going to take a financial calamity before anyone gets serious, but it is what it is.

Yep, it is very frustrating - and I think from the majority of Americans (probably a vast majority). It is an elephant in the room - everyone knows it needs to be dealt with and any kind of rational discussion immediately goes to - you are trying to get rid of SS.

Sanders is basically asking Hillary to jump into federal insolvency with him. She should tell him to jump first and laugh from on top of the proverbial bridge.


WE JUST HAD A FINANCIAL CALAMITY IN 2009. NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

:shakes fist:
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1829 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:41 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:All these crazy ideas (including crazy Republican ideas like permanent war in the Middle East) will persist until there's a collapse of the dollar and people finally get serious. It's a shame that it's going to take a financial calamity before anyone gets serious, but it is what it is.

Yep, it is very frustrating - and I think from the majority of Americans (probably a vast majority). It is an elephant in the room - everyone knows it needs to be dealt with and any kind of rational discussion immediately goes to - you are trying to get rid of SS.

Sanders is basically asking Hillary to jump into federal insolvency with him. She should tell him to jump first and laugh from on top of the proverbial bridge.

WE JUST HAD A FINANCIAL CALAMITY IN 2009. NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
:shakes fist:

I think you are in agreement (from previous posts) that both sides are being highly fiscally irresponsible. Basically, there isn't a candidate (save possibility Kasich) that is advocating any type of reasonable economic agenda. Bernie's path is heads toward wiping out SS and he is pulling Hillary the same direction. The Rs are advocating cutting taxes - and that would also balloon our deficits.

Both sides are being intransient to the detriment of the American citizen. Since you are clearly a D - I will let you defend the irrational behavior of letting entitlements grow to the point of squeezing out all other programs. Other than let the country go bankrupt to force a socialist move - I can't think of any.

Maybe Nate can defend the Rs?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1830 » by nate33 » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:58 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Yep, it is very frustrating - and I think from the majority of Americans (probably a vast majority). It is an elephant in the room - everyone knows it needs to be dealt with and any kind of rational discussion immediately goes to - you are trying to get rid of SS.

Sanders is basically asking Hillary to jump into federal insolvency with him. She should tell him to jump first and laugh from on top of the proverbial bridge.

WE JUST HAD A FINANCIAL CALAMITY IN 2009. NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
:shakes fist:

I think you are in agreement (from previous posts) that both sides are being highly fiscally irresponsible. Basically, there isn't a candidate (save possibility Kasich) that is advocating any type of reasonable economic agenda. Bernie's path is heads toward wiping out SS and he is pulling Hillary the same direction. The Rs are advocating cutting taxes - and that would also balloon our deficits.

Both sides are being intransient to the detriment of the American citizen. Since you are clearly a D - I will let you defend the irrational behavior of letting entitlements grow to the point of squeezing out all other programs. Other than let the country go bankrupt to force a socialist move - I can't think of any.

Maybe Nate can defend the Rs?


Nope. i can't defend the Republicans. They're irresponsible idiots too.

The real issue is fiat money. We wouldn't be borrowing $500 billion a year if we knew we had to pay it back in gold. But as long as people are willing to accept our green pieces of paper as collateral, there really isn't any reason to stop the madness. It'll only stop once the global market recognizes that those green pieces of paper have no value because we have no intention whatsoever of paying it back. Indeed we lack the capability of paying it back even if we tried.

I think the thinking now is that we may as well buy all the free stuff from China as we can as long as they're willing to accept worthless green pieces of paper as collateral. The problem is that by hollowing our our manufacturing base, we not only promote despair throughout working class middle America, but it also results in real long term national security threat.

A day of reckoning will come when China decides to stop accepting our green paper. Ask the Confederates how difficult it was to win a war against an opponent with a vastly superior manufacturing base.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1831 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:11 pm

Can't defend the Ds. I'm a fiscal conservative and social socialist, I vote Democrat because I don't believe politicians have very much influence over the economy. The one things that politicians can do to mess up the economy is get is into trillion dollar military adventures and make a bunch of financial promises that they know for a fact they can't keep, like the Tea Partiers did recently with the debt ceiling fiasco that hurt our credit rating costing us millions of dollars of basically free money a year.

We will have to address social security one way or the other. Either we will fix it and whoever implemented the fix will immediately be voted out of office, or we'll just ignore it and hope it goes away until the checks bounce and people are rioting in the streets. It's not going to be pretty. Dems aren't helping one bit. I wish there was someone like Bernie Sanders out there who also was brave enough to say what needs to be said about SS but I know for a fact that such a person would be absolutely unelectable.

You know what we should do is implement a carbon tax and then have all that money go towards propping up SS.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1832 » by FAH1223 » Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:03 pm

dckingsfan wrote:And Bernie (and now dragging Hillary along) are advocating policies that have decimated far more states and utterly decimated the federal budget. And Reid wouldn't even consider steps to make entitlements whole.

Kind of like we don't have a lot of good choices right now :)


The federal budget has been decimated by both parties but its been going on for 40 years. The 1980s saw the biggest deficits ever, it kind of went away in the 1990s, and then we had the 2 wars and tax cuts that weren't paid for until 2011... plus the financial crisis. I blame stupid neo-liberalism and the worship of the military industrial complex. It's always cut all the social spending and only increase defense spending to record highes. Yet we spend more than the next 7 countries combine and there's a lot of waste and other BS.

The reason? The near complete takeover of the political system of the Financiers and Corporations, the US is no longer a democracy. We have the illusion of choice. These same entities care only about profits, they are like parasites that will consume and consume till the host dies and they will die with it.

Apart form the parasitic entities the US is healthy, it has huge natural resources, vast and skilled human resources and lots of land.

I don't think Bernie's policies are at all unrealistic in terms of if this country can take them. They're unrealistic because of the system that's over the political process. I think there'll be more like him because the American people support a lot of what he's saying on a basic, organic level. His 8 years of Mayor duty in Burlington would lead me to believe he's not this radical but that he can work with other on an executive level. It's a shame that Vermont isn't a bigger, more diverse state with a higher profile and then he may have a chance at this thing.

Our country would be a lot better off if we had invested in infrastructure, health care reform, SS reform of lifting the cap in the early 2000s rather than invading two countries and spending trillions of dollars overseas.

If you're going to do perform deficit spending, invest it at home.

Like nate said, For governments that issue their own fiat currency, there is no revenue constraint. They don't need to "raise" taxes to spend since they FIRST spend then collect taxes. The only real constraint is the real resource base of the country. And with a lot of idle and underutilized resources (higher unemployment rate, for example) deficit spending is perfectly sustainable without risking insane inflation. "Cutting your way to prosperity" is ironically similar to what the IMF has been imposing on poor defenseless third world countries for decades. I think people in those countries are having feelings of schadenfreude to seeing the US and European middle classes suffering the same way.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1833 » by TGW » Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:06 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:WE JUST HAD A FINANCIAL CALAMITY IN 2009. NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
:shakes fist:

I think you are in agreement (from previous posts) that both sides are being highly fiscally irresponsible. Basically, there isn't a candidate (save possibility Kasich) that is advocating any type of reasonable economic agenda. Bernie's path is heads toward wiping out SS and he is pulling Hillary the same direction. The Rs are advocating cutting taxes - and that would also balloon our deficits.

Both sides are being intransient to the detriment of the American citizen. Since you are clearly a D - I will let you defend the irrational behavior of letting entitlements grow to the point of squeezing out all other programs. Other than let the country go bankrupt to force a socialist move - I can't think of any.

Maybe Nate can defend the Rs?


Nope. i can't defend the Republicans. They're irresponsible idiots too.

The real issue is fiat money. We wouldn't be borrowing $500 billion a year if we knew we had to pay it back in gold. But as long as people are willing to accept our green pieces of paper as collateral, there really isn't any reason to stop the madness. It'll only stop once the global market recognizes that those green pieces of paper have no value because we have no intention whatsoever of paying it back. Indeed we lack the capability of paying it back even if we tried.

I think the thinking now is that we may as well buy all the free stuff from China as we can as long as they're willing to accept worthless green pieces of paper as collateral. The problem is that by hollowing our our manufacturing base, we not only promote despair throughout working class middle America, but it also results in real long term national security threat.

A day of reckoning will come when China decides to stop accepting our green paper. Ask the Confederates how difficult it was to win a war against an opponent with a vastly superior manufacturing base.


China won't stop accepting green backs until we stop using it. All they're doing is using our own monetary unit to buy up American land, and renting it back to Americans.

China is outsmarting the US everywhere.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1834 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:13 pm

I'm getting tired of saying this. Switching to a gold standard is a TERRIBLE idea. Go take an economic history of the United States class. The recessions we had while on the gold and silver standard actually made the Great Depression look mild. Just a terrible, terrible idea proposed by people who have no understanding of economics and no knowledge of our nation's history.

Imagine the economy is a car, and monetary policy is controlled by the steering wheel. Imagine Republican and Democrat in-laws in the back seat constantly screaming for the driver to GO FASTER! GO FASTER!

The solution to this problem is not to shoot the driver, tie a rope to the steering wheel and put a brick on the accelerator, which is what the gold standard does. The solution is to get the driver earplugs so he/she can drive in peace.

This is the last time I'm going to say this. Maybe I'll just bookmark this post and from now on just post a link instead of rehashing the same tiring argument each time.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1835 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:10 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:And Bernie (and now dragging Hillary along) are advocating policies that have decimated far more states and utterly decimated the federal budget. And Reid wouldn't even consider steps to make entitlements whole.

Kind of like we don't have a lot of good choices right now :)


The federal budget has been decimated by both parties but its been going on for 40 years. The 1980s saw the biggest deficits ever, it kind of went away in the 1990s, and then we had the 2 wars and tax cuts that weren't paid for until 2011... plus the financial crisis. I blame stupid neo-liberalism and the worship of the military industrial complex. It's always cut all the social spending and only increase defense spending to record highes. Yet we spend more than the next 7 countries combine and there's a lot of waste and other BS.

The reason? The near complete takeover of the political system of the Financiers and Corporations, the US is no longer a democracy. We have the illusion of choice. These same entities care only about profits, they are like parasites that will consume and consume till the host dies and they will die with it.

Apart form the parasitic entities the US is healthy, it has huge natural resources, vast and skilled human resources and lots of land.

I don't think Bernie's policies are at all unrealistic in terms of if this country can take them. They're unrealistic because of the system that's over the political process. I think there'll be more like him because the American people support a lot of what he's saying on a basic, organic level. His 8 years of Mayor duty in Burlington would lead me to believe he's not this radical but that he can work with other on an executive level. It's a shame that Vermont isn't a bigger, more diverse state with a higher profile and then he may have a chance at this thing.

Our country would be a lot better off if we had invested in infrastructure, health care reform, SS reform of lifting the cap in the early 2000s rather than invading two countries and spending trillions of dollars overseas.

If you're going to do perform deficit spending, invest it at home.

Like nate said, For governments that issue their own fiat currency, there is no revenue constraint. They don't need to "raise" taxes to spend since they FIRST spend then collect taxes. The only real constraint is the real resource base of the country. And with a lot of idle and underutilized resources (higher unemployment rate, for example) deficit spending is perfectly sustainable without risking insane inflation. "Cutting your way to prosperity" is ironically similar to what the IMF has been imposing on poor defenseless third world countries for decades. I think people in those countries are having feelings of schadenfreude to seeing the US and European middle classes suffering the same way.


You have many good points including needlessly wasting resources abroad. And that both parties have decimated our economy since the 80s. And that military complex spending is too high as a % of our GDP.

Yet, Bernie's policies of accelerating that demise is also breathtakingly silly (or stupid depending on how you look at it). And his policies may be in reaction to things that are out of whack but they are still perilous policies - really no better than the cut taxes and let deficits boom policies of the Rs.

And yes, deficit spending does have a price. 1) displaces private economic growth; 2) They are regressive, they hurt the least among us; 3) displaces investment in infrastructure, enforcement and other federal programs and 4) eventual inflation.

Bernie's policies are mostly negative... happily we won't be burdened by him this time around.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1836 » by AFM » Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:57 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:I'm getting tired of saying this. Switching to a gold standard is a TERRIBLE idea. Go take an economic history of the United States class. The recessions we had while on the gold and silver standard actually made the Great Depression look mild. Just a terrible, terrible idea proposed by people who have no understanding of economics and no knowledge of our nation's history.

Imagine the economy is a car, and monetary policy is controlled by the steering wheel. Imagine Republican and Democrat in-laws in the back seat constantly screaming for the driver to GO FASTER! GO FASTER!

The solution to this problem is not to shoot the driver, tie a rope to the steering wheel and put a brick on the accelerator, which is what the gold standard does. The solution is to get the driver earplugs so he/she can drive in peace.

This is the last time I'm going to say this. Maybe I'll just bookmark this post and from now on just post a link instead of rehashing the same tiring argument each time.


Have you ever read Rothbard's The Case Against The Fed? It's the one book that really got me into economics as a young lad.
You can buy it for cheap, but I found a PDF copy as well:
https://mises.org/sites/default/files/The%20Case%20Against%20the%20Fed_2.pdf
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1837 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:18 pm

A very good read indeed AFM! And I might add - they do a pretty good job of explaining why deficit spending is so regressive in a round about way.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1838 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:21 pm

AFM wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:I'm getting tired of saying this. Switching to a gold standard is a TERRIBLE idea. Go take an economic history of the United States class. The recessions we had while on the gold and silver standard actually made the Great Depression look mild. Just a terrible, terrible idea proposed by people who have no understanding of economics and no knowledge of our nation's history.

Imagine the economy is a car, and monetary policy is controlled by the steering wheel. Imagine Republican and Democrat in-laws in the back seat constantly screaming for the driver to GO FASTER! GO FASTER!

The solution to this problem is not to shoot the driver, tie a rope to the steering wheel and put a brick on the accelerator, which is what the gold standard does. The solution is to get the driver earplugs so he/she can drive in peace.

This is the last time I'm going to say this. Maybe I'll just bookmark this post and from now on just post a link instead of rehashing the same tiring argument each time.


Have you ever read Rothbard's The Case Against The Fed? It's the one book that really got me into economics as a young lad.
You can buy it for cheap, but I found a PDF copy as well:
https://mises.org/sites/default/files/The%20Case%20Against%20the%20Fed_2.pdf


No but I am a professional economist...

I can tell you this without reading it... if he doesn't explain the game theory behind monetary policy he has no idea what he is talking about.

https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/85/05/Rational_May1985.pdf
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1839 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:35 pm

Actually, no, this is the paper I had in mind:

http://www.wm.tu-berlin.de/fileadmin/fg124/geldtheorie/literatur/barro-gordon-c.pdf

The public is fully aware of the Fed's incentive to cheat and fool us into thinking they can influence the real economy with short run monetary "surprises." Because we're not stupid we come to expect surprises and the Fed is forced to spring surprises on us just to maintain the status quo. Therefore the Fed is actually better off ignoring its ability to manipulate the monetary supply and stick to predictable rules.

Following the rule means adjusting the steering wheel and the acceleration of the car to maintain a constant speed, not tying a rope to the steering wheel, that would be stupid.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part VIII 

Post#1840 » by pineappleheadindc » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:46 pm

I'm watching a live Trump press conference in DC and -- he's sounding completely rational to me.

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