Is Wall Top 5 PG?

[TheSecretWeapon]

At the end of the day wall has the least amount of talent around him compared to russy,cp3,curry,lowry,Rubio,rondo,

With the exception of curry it can be a legit debate if those guys are the best guys on they're team...
Rubio and rondo are nowhere near wall level...

Rubio has 3 of the top 10 young guys in the league
Rondo has one of the best centers in the league
Neither have a chance at playoffs

Wall simply has to do everything for us to win this season, especially with beal out...he has no one on the team to tht can take the defensive attention off him...every other top 7 point guard do

I know you don't subscribe to numbers, but I ran numbers on this. Wall's "supporting cast" has been average so far this season. Those interested can read about it in greater detail over at the blog.

[deneem4]

The Wizards as a team have a TS of 54%. Wall's TS is 51% and he takes the most shots. It doesn't take a math genius to see his poor and frequent shooting hurts the team.

And lets not forget he has 17 turnovers in the last two games.

He also has the most points steals blocks rebounds and assist in the last 2 games...

So i guess that makes it ok to have 17 turnovers, right?

He took 36 shots the last two games, most on the team by far. He should have the most points.

40+ points
20+ assists
20+ rebounds
2wins
Fine by me...
whatever gets the job...fxxxxk efficiency
Not to mention those games was back to back...
How do you discourage that?

[deneem4]

At the end of the day wall has the least amount of talent around him compared to russy,cp3,curry,lowry,Rubio,rondo,

With the exception of curry it can be a legit debate if those guys are the best guys on they're team...
Rubio and rondo are nowhere near wall level...

Rubio has 3 of the top 10 young guys in the league
Rondo has one of the best centers in the league
Neither have a chance at playoffs

Wall simply has to do everything for us to win this season, especially with beal out...he has no one on the team to tht can take the defensive attention off him...every other top 7 point guard do

I know you don't subscribe to numbers, but I ran numbers on this. Wall's "supporting cast" has been average so far this season. Those interested can read about it in greater detail over at the blog.

But wall supporting cast is nothing cared to almost every other pg in the poll...with maybe the exception of Lillard

[tontoz]

Sessions plays the same position on the same team and has a TS of 56.5%. Somehow the poor supporting cast doesnt seem to cause him to miss shots or turn it over.

[deneem4]

Sessions plays the same position on the same team and has a TS of 56.5%. Somehow the poor supporting cast doesnt seem to cause him to miss shots or turn it over.

Sessions focus is scoring and getting to the line...like I said wall ts% is lower than other star guards because he doesn't get to the line as frequently...

[dlts20]

Sessions plays the same position on the same team and has a TS of 56.5%. Somehow the poor supporting cast doesnt seem to cause him to miss shots or turn it over.

What you just said proves my point. Sessions has a better TS and less turnovers yet Wall is 10x a better player. That stuff doesn't tell the whole story

[CobraCommander]

Sessions plays the same position on the same team and has a TS of 56.5%. Somehow the poor supporting cast doesnt seem to cause him to miss shots or turn it over.

Sessions focus is scoring and getting to the line...like I said wall ts% is lower than other star guards because he doesn't get to the line as frequently...

Obviously Sessions is better than Wall too. The way Tontoz sounds Wall isn't even top 5 on Wiz.


Either way...ill take that 4 game winnings streak with Wall getting 24, 10 and 1 turn over. Is that good enough?

Oh yeah and the wiz supporting cast isn't that good-

I'm generally not a fan boy but all this hate making me feel like a John Wall Apologist. SO I'm gonna just say Wall is top 3!

[tontoz]

Sessions plays the same position on the same team and has a TS of 56.5%. Somehow the poor supporting cast doesnt seem to cause him to miss shots or turn it over.

Sessions focus is scoring and getting to the line...like I said wall ts% is lower than other star guards because he doesn't get to the line as frequently...

Obviously Sessions is better than Wall too. The way Tontoz sounds Wall isn't even top 5 on Wiz.


Either way...ill take that 4 game winnings streak with Wall getting 24, 10 and 1 turn over. Is that good enough?

Oh yeah and the wiz supporting cast isn't that good-

I'm generally not a fan boy but all this hate making me feel like a John Wall Apologist. SO I'm gonna just say Wall is top 3!

And now the inevitable strawman arguments.

You claimed that Wall's poor TS and turnovers were partially caused by weak teammates. Sessions plays on the same team and doesn't have a problem with TS or turnovers, so obviously that argument doesn't hold up not that it ever made sense anyway.

Then you resort to strawman nonsense with the "Sessions is better than Wall" and "Wall isnt top 5 on the Wiz", things nobody actually said. I understand. When you can't make a coherent argument the strawman is a convenient fallback option.

If Wall played 82 games against Calderon he probably would be top 3.

[tontoz]

Sessions plays the same position on the same team and has a TS of 56.5%. Somehow the poor supporting cast doesnt seem to cause him to miss shots or turn it over.

Sessions focus is scoring and getting to the line...like I said wall ts% is lower than other star guards because he doesn't get to the line as frequently...

Wall's efg of 46.9% (which doesn't include foul shooting) ranks 26th among pgs.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/field-goals/sort/shootingEfficiency/position/point-guards

[tontoz]

Sessions plays the same position on the same team and has a TS of 56.5%. Somehow the poor supporting cast doesnt seem to cause him to miss shots or turn it over.

What you just said proves my point. Sessions has a better TS and less turnovers yet Wall is 10x a better player. That stuff doesn't tell the whole story

Nobody said they were the whole story. RIF

But making shots and taking care of the ball are two major factors in pg play.

[dlts20]

Sessions plays the same position on the same team and has a TS of 56.5%. Somehow the poor supporting cast doesnt seem to cause him to miss shots or turn it over.

What you just said proves my point. Sessions has a better TS and less turnovers yet Wall is 10x a better player. That stuff doesn't tell the whole story

Nobody said they were the whole story. RIF

But making shots and taking care of the ball are two major factors in pg play.

I disagree. All the leaders in turnovers every year are the best players in the league especially a guy like Wall who has the ball in his hands more than anyone else every year and has literally had to create for everyone because we rarely have any iso scorers.

Even shooting is overrated especially when you are a pass first pg who generally every team still prefers if all was equal. It's actually the position that shooting matters the least if you can run your team well

[tontoz]

What you just said proves my point. Sessions has a better TS and less turnovers yet Wall is 10x a better player. That stuff doesn't tell the whole story

Nobody said they were the whole story. RIF

But making shots and taking care of the ball are two major factors in pg play.

I disagree. All the leaders in turnovers every year are the best players in the league especially a guy like Wall who has the ball in his hands more than anyone else every year and has literally had to create for everyone because we rarely have any iso scorers.

Even shooting is overrated especially when you are a pass first pg who generally every team still prefers if all was equal. It's actually the position that shooting matters the least if you can run your team well

Wall takes more shots than anyone else on the team. He takes a lot of shots without anyone else even touching the ball. Among pgs only 3 guys (Curry, Westbrook and Lillard) take more shots than Wall. Wall's poor shooting hurts even more because he shoots so much.

Total turnovers and turnover rate are two different things. I can understand why you would get the two confused though.

Here are the 20 worst in turnover rate:

1 Nick Collison, OKC 54 11.8 .488 20.9 21.9 10.7 11.6 14.8 13.3 7.39 -39.0 -1.3
2 Sonny Weems, PHI/PHX 40 11.6 .450 24.3 20.6 14.0 1.6 9.9 5.7 3.42 -48.9 -1.6
3 Omer Asik, NO 55 16.8 .554 8.4 18.5 9.6 11.9 27.1 19.2 10.86 3.6 0.1
4 Tyson Chandler, PHX 58 23.9 .584 11.3 17.9 12.0 11.6 28.1 19.6 13.86 67.5 2.2
5 Steve Blake, DET 46 16.6 .511 34.9 17.3 16.6 1.1 9.0 4.9 8.57 -27.7 -0.9
6 Nerlens Noel, PHI 60 29.3 .551 12.4 17.0 17.7 8.5 22.0 15.1 16.58 133.1 4.4
7 Thomas Robinson, BKN 63 11.5 .437 10.7 16.9 17.5 14.5 28.4 21.4 12.94 15.5 0.5
Pablo Prigioni, LAC 46 12.9 .496 39.3 16.9 10.8 5.2 9.1 7.2 9.55 -12.9 -0.4
9 Joakim Noah, CHI 29 21.9 .406 34.9 16.5 15.1 14.7 26.8 20.9 14.08 33.0 1.1
10 Rudy Gobert, UTAH 49 32.5 .589 13.5 16.4 13.5 12.1 27.2 19.7 17.61 166.8 5.6
RK PLAYER GP MPG TS% AST TO USG ORR DRR REBR PER VA EWA
Marcelo Huertas, LAL 40 14.3 .508 37.2 16.4 17.7 2.6 10.5 6.4 11.75 6.4 0.2
12 Adreian Payne, MIN 46 9.5 .438 12.6 16.2 16.1 4.6 21.0 12.9 5.85 -36.8 -1.2
13 JaKarr Sampson, DEN/PHI 61 15.3 .496 9.6 16.0 12.4 4.1 15.2 9.5 7.38 -43.5 -1.5
14 Bismack Biyombo, TOR 68 22.6 .589 5.6 15.9 10.5 11.7 30.3 21.1 14.59 91.5 3.1
15 Cole Aldrich, LAC 46 12.1 .586 13.6 15.7 18.3 11.7 26.3 19.1 19.99 78.0 2.6
16 Robert Covington, PHI 56 27.5 .543 9.8 15.6 19.5 3.5 20.4 11.8 12.58 47.8 1.6
Dwight Howard, HOU 59 32.6 .603 9.0 15.6 18.0 12.0 29.2 20.5 19.49 255.5 8.5
18 James Anderson, SAC 38 12.0 .466 12.1 15.4 11.5 1.9 10.6 6.3 5.12 -36.7 -1.2
Mason Plumlee, POR 70 25.4 .557 21.6 15.4 17.1 10.2 22.0 16.1 16.42 154.2 5.1
Gorgui Dieng, MIN 69 27.0 .600 14.8 15.4 16.0 8.4 22.2 15.4 16.99 177.8 5.9
RK PLAYER GP MPG

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/sort/turnoverRatio/order/true


So much star power on that list.

[dlts20]

Nobody said they were the whole story. RIF

But making shots and taking care of the ball are two major factors in pg play.

I disagree. All the leaders in turnovers every year are the best players in the league especially a guy like Wall who has the ball in his hands more than anyone else every year and has literally had to create for everyone because we rarely have any iso scorers.

Even shooting is overrated especially when you are a pass first pg who generally every team still prefers if all was equal. It's actually the position that shooting matters the least if you can run your team well

Wall takes more shots than anyone else on the team. He takes a lot of shots without anyone else even touching the ball. Among pgs only 3 guys (Curry, Westbrook and Lillard) take more shots than Wall. Wall's poor shooting hurts even more because he shoots so much.

Total turnovers and turnover rate are two different things. I can understand why you would get the two confused though.

Here are the 20 worst in turnover rate:

1 Nick Collison, OKC 54 11.8 .488 20.9 21.9 10.7 11.6 14.8 13.3 7.39 -39.0 -1.3
2 Sonny Weems, PHI/PHX 40 11.6 .450 24.3 20.6 14.0 1.6 9.9 5.7 3.42 -48.9 -1.6
3 Omer Asik, NO 55 16.8 .554 8.4 18.5 9.6 11.9 27.1 19.2 10.86 3.6 0.1
4 Tyson Chandler, PHX 58 23.9 .584 11.3 17.9 12.0 11.6 28.1 19.6 13.86 67.5 2.2
5 Steve Blake, DET 46 16.6 .511 34.9 17.3 16.6 1.1 9.0 4.9 8.57 -27.7 -0.9
6 Nerlens Noel, PHI 60 29.3 .551 12.4 17.0 17.7 8.5 22.0 15.1 16.58 133.1 4.4
7 Thomas Robinson, BKN 63 11.5 .437 10.7 16.9 17.5 14.5 28.4 21.4 12.94 15.5 0.5
Pablo Prigioni, LAC 46 12.9 .496 39.3 16.9 10.8 5.2 9.1 7.2 9.55 -12.9 -0.4
9 Joakim Noah, CHI 29 21.9 .406 34.9 16.5 15.1 14.7 26.8 20.9 14.08 33.0 1.1
10 Rudy Gobert, UTAH 49 32.5 .589 13.5 16.4 13.5 12.1 27.2 19.7 17.61 166.8 5.6
RK PLAYER GP MPG TS% AST TO USG ORR DRR REBR PER VA EWA
Marcelo Huertas, LAL 40 14.3 .508 37.2 16.4 17.7 2.6 10.5 6.4 11.75 6.4 0.2
12 Adreian Payne, MIN 46 9.5 .438 12.6 16.2 16.1 4.6 21.0 12.9 5.85 -36.8 -1.2
13 JaKarr Sampson, DEN/PHI 61 15.3 .496 9.6 16.0 12.4 4.1 15.2 9.5 7.38 -43.5 -1.5
14 Bismack Biyombo, TOR 68 22.6 .589 5.6 15.9 10.5 11.7 30.3 21.1 14.59 91.5 3.1
15 Cole Aldrich, LAC 46 12.1 .586 13.6 15.7 18.3 11.7 26.3 19.1 19.99 78.0 2.6
16 Robert Covington, PHI 56 27.5 .543 9.8 15.6 19.5 3.5 20.4 11.8 12.58 47.8 1.6
Dwight Howard, HOU 59 32.6 .603 9.0 15.6 18.0 12.0 29.2 20.5 19.49 255.5 8.5
18 James Anderson, SAC 38 12.0 .466 12.1 15.4 11.5 1.9 10.6 6.3 5.12 -36.7 -1.2
Mason Plumlee, POR 70 25.4 .557 21.6 15.4 17.1 10.2 22.0 16.1 16.42 154.2 5.1
Gorgui Dieng, MIN 69 27.0 .600 14.8 15.4 16.0 8.4 22.2 15.4 16.99 177.8 5.9
RK PLAYER GP MPG

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/sort/turnoverRatio/order/true


So much star power on that list.

I'm not getting it confused. I know the difference and Wall isn't anywhere on the list so I figured you must've been talking about total, otherwise your point makes no sense.

I guess Wall shoots too much even though he is considered one of the top 5 pass first guys in the league? I guess guys like Temple, Porter, Humphries, Eddie, etc.. needed more shots since they can all score so great and efficiently

[dlts20]

Seriously I've been on a ton of boards and this is by far the most negative on the site. All you guys do is hate on everything. The guy is over 20pts, 10ast, 5reb, 2stls, and 1blk even after the worst November you will ever see on a roster that you guys say suck even when healthy let alone leading the league in injuries and the worst coaching staff in the league

[MJG]

So, to sum up:

Formula for Not Top 5
(Good Plays) - (Bad Plays)

Formula for Top 5
(Good Plays + Subjective Incompetence of Teammates/Coach/Management Offset Bonus) - (Bad Plays / 4)

[dckingsfan]

Seriously I've been on a ton of boards and this is by far the most negative on the site. All you guys do is hate on everything. The guy is over 20pts, 10ast, 5reb, 2stls, 5TOs .438FG% and 1blk even after the worst November you will ever see on a roster that you guys say suck even when healthy let alone leading the league in injuries and the worst coaching staff in the league

Well, I think the question is if they are hating or being realistic. Look at the topic of the thread.

Their take is that he hasn't cracked the top 5. You are saying they are haters for saying this? Just want to be clear on that?

I think even you (a Wall fanatic - I mean that as a compliment) would agree that Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook and Steph Curry are better PGs that Wall.

I think there is a very strong case for Isaiah Thomas, Tony Parker & Kyle Lowry (and others) are playing better due to their efficiencies as well.

And that kind of lumps Wall in with the next group. It doesn't mean he is terrible - it just means he isn't a top 5 PG. And we needed/wanted Wall to join the Paul/Westbrook/Curry group.

So, don't look at it as hate - look at it as disappointment.

[deneem4]

Sessions plays the same position on the same team and has a TS of 56.5%. Somehow the poor supporting cast doesnt seem to cause him to miss shots or turn it over.

What you just said proves my point. Sessions has a better TS and less turnovers yet Wall is 10x a better player. That stuff doesn't tell the whole story

Nobody said they were the whole story. RIF

But making shots and taking care of the ball are two major factors in pg play.

Personnel and coaching is too...
Who else can handle the ball on the wiz?

[tontoz]

I'm not getting it confused. I know the difference and Wall isn't anywhere on the list so I figured you must've been talking about total, otherwise your point makes no sense.

I guess Wall shoots too much even though he is considered one of the top 5 pass first guys in the league? I guess guys like Temple, Porter, Humphries, Eddie, etc.. needed more shots since they can all score so great and efficiently

I made it very clear what i was talking about. I even posted the link previously on page 34.

Wall's turnover ratio ranks 51st among pgs.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg/sort/turnoverRatio/page/2

When you combine that with his TS of 51.4% (49th among pgs, tied with Austin Rivers)

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg/sort/trueShootingPct/order/true

he doesn't have a legit case to be in the top 5.

The rest of the team scores more efficiently than Wall. That means Wall should be taking fewer shots. It wouldn't be hard for him to reduce his shot attempts since he frequently takes pullup jumpers before anyone else touches the ball.

[tontoz]

What you just said proves my point. Sessions has a better TS and less turnovers yet Wall is 10x a better player. That stuff doesn't tell the whole story

Nobody said they were the whole story. RIF

But making shots and taking care of the ball are two major factors in pg play.

Personnel and coaching is too...
Who else can handle the ball on the wiz?

Sessions turnovers and efficiency are better this season than his career averages. If the coaching and personnel were so bad i would think they would hurt his game too.

[DANNYLANDOVER]

I used to enjoy reading threads on this board. Now, every thread is full of anti-stats, eye-test homers. Might as well be reading BF.