Is Wall Top 5 PG?

[DANNYLANDOVER]

Ok maybe hands11, WizD, Wes_Tiny_Abe had their moments, but still...

[payitforward]

He got to the line more but he shot worse in 3s and 2s...he also had a higher turnover rate

More points, rebounds, a better W percentage for his team better on/off and plus/minus, BPM, WS, TS and PER, and on and on.

I like Wall, last yr he was top 5 for me, but not this year.

I only wanted to correct a minor error, but seeing you think he's as good as CP, WB, and Curry I see there's no debate here. Because that's just not right.

Despite all those numbers Westbrook wasn't efficient... period...

Give it up deneem. Last year he got to the line 11.4 times per 40 minutes and shot 83.5%. He also had 8.5 boards per 40 minutes. His TS% was higher than Wall's.

The kid's a monster, a great player. He's better than John Wall. No one with any sense would think otherwise. Just as no one would deny that Curry is better than Wall. Chris Paul too.

This has become extremely stupid, this whole thread. I also think it's insulting to Wall to claim he's something he's not -- as if what he actually *is* weren't good enough.

[deneem4]

Exactly how I feel when guys like rondo Rubio gets compared to wall because of their effiecency

[TheSecretWeapon]

Efficiency in basketball is a measure of how often a team or player scores as compared to the number of possessions it uses. In a manner of speaking, teams (and their players) purchase points with possessions. They're spending possessions to accumulate points.

On average this season, the league is accumulating 106.2 points for every 100 possessions it spends. From Wall, the Wizards are getting a bit less than that: about 103 points for every 100 possessions.

The same thing is true of shooting the ball, which is a primary way of spending possessions. On average, the league gets about one point per field goal attempt (efg is .501 so far this season). When Wall spends a shot, the yield isn't as good: 0.938 points per shot. Wall "spends" a lot of shots -- 10th most in the league. But, the yield isnt' as good as other around the league, and he's 17th in total points -- behind Andrew Wiggins (who's spent 115 fewer FGA), behind Kemba Walker (71 fewer FGA), behind Kyle Lowry (152 fewer FGA), behind Isaiah Thomas (31 fewer FGA).

There are other factors in play when considering overall efficiency -- assists, turnovers, free throws and offensive rebounding. But 85% of possessions end with a FGA or FTA, so shooting efficiency is by far the most important factor in determining who wins and loses.

Basketball is a game about efficiency. Teams take turns with the ball until time runs out. Possessions are about equal between two teams in any given game, with a one or two possession variation based on end of period possession stuff. Because of this, the team that is most efficient in a game will win. Almost always -- the ONLY exceptions coming in a close game where one team gets an extra possession or two.

[dlts20]

You freaks are still discussing this?...lol

Might as well save it for the end of the season and let things play out. At least for 10pm tonight because we have the biggest and most exciting game of the season for us so far at Atlanta tonight. Can't wait

[AFM]

Well I agree with deneem, if it's even a point he was trying to make--theres very little difference between #4 through #9.
Curry Westbrook Paul are clearly the top 3. The next 6 are all interchangable IMO. We'd have the same record with Lowry IMO

[TheSecretWeapon]

You freaks are still discussing this?...lol

Maybe you'd prefer we talk jersey numbers or something? I think Wall has a great jersey number. Definitely among the first two numbers.

Or...I came here to talk basketball. That's what I'm doing. If you don't like this particular topic about basketball, bring up some other subject and I'd be happy to talk about that instead.

Might as well save it for the end of the season and let things play out. At least for 10pm tonight because we have the biggest and most exciting game of the season for us so far at Atlanta tonight. Can't wait

Don't see why we should "let things play out." Most of us here like talking about the Wizards. I'd prefer to do that regularly rather than wait three weeks and say "yay" or "damn."

[dlts20]

Calm down homie. It was a joke. That's why I said lol. I'm just really excited about the stretch run, the fact that almost all hands are finally on deck, while the sked is about to get super hard. My point was that all questions about Wall and the team are about to be truly answered starting tonight til the rest of the season. Is he top 5 and are we a good playoff/elite team

[Kanyewest]

Yup, it is put up or shut up time. Who knows, the Wizards could pick up their level of play significantly just as they did last season in the 2015 postseason. That being said, I am going to keep my expectations low but I hope the Wizards can pull it together.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Yup, it is put up or shut up time. Who knows, the Wizards could pick up their level of play significantly just as they did last season in the 2015 postseason. That being said, I am going to keep my expectations low but I hope the Wizards can pull it together.

DID the Wizards pick up their level of play significantly last offseason? I'm unconvinced. We're talking a total of 10 games, which is a small sample size. They stomped Toronto pretty good, so it's definitely arguable...although Toronto had a hobbled Lowry on the floor. And that stomping was four games, which is an even smaller sample size. Include the six-game sample against the Hawks, and the "stepping up" thing looks way less certain. Although that's confounded by Wall's injury -- and the information gleaned from those games is highly equivocal.

The offense looked wonderful against the Raptors, but Toronto ranked 25th in defense last season and had gotten worse defensively as the season went on. Against the Hawks, which ranked 6th in defense, the Wizards offense looked not nearly as good -- how much they missed Wall is an open question. They had good and bad games offensively both with and without him.

Even their overall record -- 6-4 -- isn't significantly different than their regular season record.

I know the "eye test" folks believe the Wizards "stepped up" in the playoffs, but that's not really supported by the numbers. Maybe that's why so many of the eye testers predicted 50+ wins this year while stat guys were saying low 40s.

Maybe.

[Kanyewest]

Yup, it is put up or shut up time. Who knows, the Wizards could pick up their level of play significantly just as they did last season in the 2015 postseason. That being said, I am going to keep my expectations low but I hope the Wizards can pull it together.

DID the Wizards pick up their level of play significantly last offseason? I'm unconvinced. We're talking a total of 10 games, which is a small sample size. They stomped Toronto pretty good, so it's definitely arguable...although Toronto had a hobbled Lowry on the floor. And that stomping was four games, which is an even smaller sample size. Include the six-game sample against the Hawks, and the "stepping up" thing looks way less certain. Although that's confounded by Wall's injury -- and the information gleaned from those games is highly equivocal.

The offense looked wonderful against the Raptors, but Toronto ranked 25th in defense last season and had gotten worse defensively as the season went on. Against the Hawks, which ranked 6th in defense, the Wizards offense looked not nearly as good -- how much they missed Wall is an open question. They had good and bad games offensively both with and without him.

Even their overall record -- 6-4 -- isn't significantly different than their regular season record.

I know the "eye test" folks believe the Wizards "stepped up" in the playoffs, but that's not really supported by the numbers. Maybe that's why so many of the eye testers predicted 50+ wins this year while stat guys were saying low 40s.

Maybe.

5-0 with a healthy Wall was significantly better than the level they were playing at. Although you are right the Raptors did fold with Lowry but they did have a healthy DeRozan, which they didn't have for a good portion of the 2014-15 season.

[tontoz]

I know the "eye test" folks believe the Wizards "stepped up" in the playoffs, but that's not really supported by the numbers. Maybe that's why so many of the eye testers predicted 50+ wins this year while stat guys were saying low 40s.

Maybe.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Yup, it is put up or shut up time. Who knows, the Wizards could pick up their level of play significantly just as they did last season in the 2015 postseason. That being said, I am going to keep my expectations low but I hope the Wizards can pull it together.

DID the Wizards pick up their level of play significantly last offseason? I'm unconvinced. We're talking a total of 10 games, which is a small sample size. They stomped Toronto pretty good, so it's definitely arguable...although Toronto had a hobbled Lowry on the floor. And that stomping was four games, which is an even smaller sample size. Include the six-game sample against the Hawks, and the "stepping up" thing looks way less certain. Although that's confounded by Wall's injury -- and the information gleaned from those games is highly equivocal.

The offense looked wonderful against the Raptors, but Toronto ranked 25th in defense last season and had gotten worse defensively as the season went on. Against the Hawks, which ranked 6th in defense, the Wizards offense looked not nearly as good -- how much they missed Wall is an open question. They had good and bad games offensively both with and without him.

Even their overall record -- 6-4 -- isn't significantly different than their regular season record.

I know the "eye test" folks believe the Wizards "stepped up" in the playoffs, but that's not really supported by the numbers. Maybe that's why so many of the eye testers predicted 50+ wins this year while stat guys were saying low 40s.

Maybe.

5-0 with a healthy Wall was significantly better than the level they were playing at. Although you are right the Raptors did fold with Lowry but they did have a healthy DeRozan, which they didn't have for a good portion of the 2014-15 season.

Even that 5-0 doesn't support the idea that the Wizards played significantly better in the playoffs. Win streaks (and losing streaks) happen all the time in a long season. The Wizards had two five-game winning streaks during the regular season (one of them actually a six-gamer), as well as two five-game losing streaks.

I'm not totally rejecting the idea that Washington actually did "step up" in the playoffs. What I'm saying is that the extent of the "step" -- if there was one at all -- was probably much smaller than many think.

[AFM]

Sweeping a team that swept us in the regular season isn't stepping up?

[deneem4]

Sweeping a team that swept us in the regular season isn't stepping up?

I guess u can't please wizards fans...sweeping a higher seed when we have known to been a bad road team...then winning the 1st game on the road we had a good chance of winning of wall would have never went down...

Not one person predicted us to beat Toronto let alone sweep them...especially with the home advantage..

[tontoz]

Sweeping a team that swept us in the regular season isn't stepping up?

If Lowry was healthy, sure. But he wasnt. That is why he missed 9 games right before the payoffs started.

And let's not forget that the guy who really hurt the Raps isnt on the team any more.

[CobraCommander]

A board like this is for fans to express their opinions. As a fan, as I stated, my opinion is swayed by my fan loyalty. Claiming that I was as unbiased as you are for a mere human like me would be impossible. But I watch enough and played enough ball to know every baller is flawed. My opinion that Wall is one of the top 5 point guards is shared by ESPN pre-season rankings as well (I think) but hey...its just an opinion. My question for you is this. Would the wiz be significantly better with lowery and the exact same roster... My opinion- No. Y'all gonna miss JW when he demands a trade and we go through another decade of lottery basketball.

It's true that for a mere human being, I'm quite extraordinary. On this board only AFM can compare with me -- and even that is only in his own eyes. I appreciate your understanding of my great qualities and your public recognition here.

The perspicuity of this action on your part makes me comprehend how deep your understanding is of human affairs, of which after all basketball is one. Hence, you must be right about John Wall. Not only is he top 5, he is top .5 -- 1/2 of John Wall is better than any other point guard. I'm glad this is finally settled.

As you know, deneem has declared that the current Philadelphia 76ers would contend for a title if only they had John Wall at point guard. But only by reading your analysis have I penetrated to the heart of the matter: with John Wall as point guard, an average D League team would become an average NBA team. An average NCAA team would win the European championship. And an average high school roster would waltz through the NCAA tournament and emerge as national champions.

It's foolish to think that cutting down turnovers would make John Wall better. How could they? In fact, it may be that he only commits these extra turnovers in order not to appear too good -- making his friends in the league feel bad.

As to your final sentence, I feel pretty sure that if John Wall were to leave the Washington Wizards, Ted would shut the franchise down. What would be the point of continuing?

See this is why I love this board- You understood my point and your rebuttal... Perfect.

Seriously I don't think Wall is perfect. Wall makes way too many costly turn overs and too many bad shots at the wrong time. BUT my response to those is that he is 25 years young + poorly coached + handles the ball nearly the entire game (Coaching matters and losing Sam Cassle hurt). Wall is forced to do more because his supporting cast is on nights HORRIBLE or HURT- When Wall has help from Beal the wiz can compete.

This is a fun debate...and every night Wall either makes his case for or against him being top 5- Last 2 games I call him top 5- we will see what happens when they play the ATL again

[CobraCommander]

Sweeping a team that swept us in the regular season isn't stepping up?

If Lowry was healthy, sure. But he wasnt. That is why he missed 9 games right before the payoffs started.

And let's not forget that the guy who really hurt the Raps isnt on the team any more.

No one is giving us sympathy because Beal has been hurt all year and as its stands - you an debate Lowry vs Wall but NO ONE would say Beal vs DeRozan is debatable

DeRozan has been significantly better than Beal this year...

[tontoz]

Sweeping a team that swept us in the regular season isn't stepping up?

If Lowry was healthy, sure. But he wasnt. That is why he missed 9 games right before the payoffs started.

And let's not forget that the guy who really hurt the Raps isnt on the team any more.

No one is giving us sympathy because Beal has been hurt all year and as its stands - you an debate Lowry vs Wall but NO ONE would say Beal vs DeRozan is debatable

DeRozan has been significantly better than Beal this year...

Lowry is the Raps best player.When he is hurt that is a big problem for the RAps.

Beal isn't the teams best, 2nd best or even third best player. If Wall was hurt then that would be a major problem. Beal being hurt isn't even remotely comparable to Lowry being hurt.

[thricethefun]

Played like a top 5 pg tonight