OT: Terrorist attacks in Paris

[TimRobbins]

There is literally NO WAY that the US suffers the fate of the Byzantine / Roman empires.

We have the Pacific on one side, the Atlantic on another - a waste barren land of ice on the north above us and densely forested, drug warfare infested jungles below us.

There will always be sleeper cells and lone attacks and even the odd, coordinated attack - but nothing that can change the fabric of society like it occured in Asia and Europe.

Its geographically NOT possible.

Europe wasn't invaded outright either. They took in immigrants and then they woke up one day and Brussels was 25% Muslim.

Fortunately, the US never went that route of Europe, so we're in a much better place, but, if we take in huge number of immigrants from the ME (whether you call the "refugees" or "immigrants"), we're going to be in the same position.

When you reach the 20% or more threshold, it's pretty much over.

[musiqsoulchild]

There is literally NO WAY that the US suffers the fate of the Byzantine / Roman empires.

We have the Pacific on one side, the Atlantic on another - a waste barren land of ice on the north above us and densely forested, drug warfare infested jungles below us.

There will always be sleeper cells and lone attacks and even the odd, coordinated attack - but nothing that can change the fabric of society like it occured in Asia and Europe.

Its geographically NOT possible.

Europe wasn't invaded outright either. They took in immigrants and then they woke up one day and Brussels was 25% Muslim.

Fortunately, the US never went that route of Europe, so we're in a much better place, but, if we take in huge number of immigrants from the ME (whether you call the "refugees" or "immigrants"), we're going to be in the same position.

When you reach the 20% or more threshold, it's pretty much over.

You are fear mongering - like insane. Everything you're saying is because of geography.

Cuban refugees didnt go to Europe in Fidel's time. There are several other extraneous factors involved in immigrants coming in - socioeconomic, political, religious, cultural, how much money they have (for air, land, feet, ship mode of transports).

Stop fear mongering. Israel itself has 20% Bedouin population - is Israel pretty much over?

[DarthDiggler69]

Stop fear mongering. Israel itself has 20% Bedouin population - is Israel pretty much over?

But if US and the west stopped backing Israel today, no more Israel tomorrow. Their neighbors along with terrorist groups can not wait for the day they can get rid of them

[musiqsoulchild]

Stop fear mongering. Israel itself has 20% Bedouin population - is Israel pretty much over?

But if US and the west stopped backing Israel today, no more Israel tomorrow. Their neighbors along with terrorist groups can not wait for the day they can get rid of them

Of course....also geographical. And demographic superiority.

Anytime, a minority asserts itself with power - there is fear. Israel is a powerful country whilst being a distinct minority in the Middle East. It is in their best interests to have a lot of Muslim Arab's in its democracy.

[DarthDiggler69]

Stop fear mongering. Israel itself has 20% Bedouin population - is Israel pretty much over?

But if US and the west stopped backing Israel today, no more Israel tomorrow. Their neighbors along with terrorist groups can not wait for the day they can get rid of them

Of course....also geographical. And demographic superiority.

Anytime, a minority asserts itself with power - there is fear. Israel is a powerful country whilst being a distinct minority in the Middle East. It is in their best interests to have a lot of Muslim Arab's in its democracy.

But western europe doesnt have the balls or the political clout to act like Israel can. Its practically too late for small countries like Belgium

[musiqsoulchild]

But if US and the west stopped backing Israel today, no more Israel tomorrow. Their neighbors along with terrorist groups can not wait for the day they can get rid of them

Of course....also geographical. And demographic superiority.

Anytime, a minority asserts itself with power - there is fear. Israel is a powerful country whilst being a distinct minority in the Middle East. It is in their best interests to have a lot of Muslim Arab's in its democracy.

But western europe doesnt have the balls or the political clout to act like Israel can right now.

And thats because Obama has made the right call in not trying to be the World Police.

We;ll stand with our allies - but they need to step their game up too. There are way too many idiosyncracies that need to be addressed.

Here's an example:

1) Apple wont let the FBI into their OS in the San Bernandino case
2) FB / Google resist working with government agencies at each turn
3) Twitter took a long time before it started cracking down on Jihadi recruitment handles
4) Our EU partners dont share intelligence with us in a timely manner - sometimes out of a misguided sense of privacy and sometimes out of sheer ignorance. How about having one massive database that all countries can tap into for tackling terrorism. The UN or NATO should regulate it to keep the countries honest.


None of this is perfect...but its better than the clustercrap that is Belgium and most of Europe right now.

I am also firmly of the belief that the various governments of the world are hampered down quite a bit by their individual governments and internal policing by regulatory bodies.

In that sense, Trump is right - "they" dont follow rules and why should we?

What he's clueless about is that we ACTUALLY dont follow rules when it comes to dealing with "THEM". We go into their countries and their sovereign borders williy-nilly, kill people we suspect of fomenting terror, take a picture for confirmation of the kill shot and leave.

Thats not following rules....thats showing extreme prejudice when dealing with bad people. I am a 100% OK with that.

[Mech Engineer]

It is crazy to hear that even local police in Brussels different districts have a tough time communicating with each other because they have French, Flemish, Arabic areas. IMO, this Brussels attacks seems to be a complete screw-up by the Belgian government/police/intelligence regardless of the bigger issues like refugees, religion, immigration etc...

[musiqsoulchild]

It is crazy to hear that even local police in Brussels different districts have a tough time communicating with each other because they have French, Flemish, Arabic areas. IMO, this Brussels attacks seems to be a complete screw-up by the Belgian government/police/intelligence regardless of the bigger issues like refugees, religion, immigration etc...

There are supposedly 38 different types of Police departments in Belgium.

[TimRobbins]

You are fear mongering - like insane. Everything you're saying is because of geography.

Cuban refugees didnt go to Europe in Fidel's time. There are several other extraneous factors involved in immigrants coming in - socioeconomic, political, religious, cultural, how much money they have (for air, land, feet, ship mode of transports).

Stop fear mongering. Israel itself has 20% Bedouin population - is Israel pretty much over?

Cliches like "fear mongering" are the easy way out.

Do you seriously want to live like they do in Israel with Terrorists attacks on a daily basis?

When talking about Israel - there's also one big difference from Europe - Israel is willing to fight. The Jewish people of Israel will do whatever it takes to hold on to their country since they know perfectly well what happens when you don't have one.

I don't think you understand the point - the is no "big conspiracy" around the migration. Like I said - it's not about the individuals who migrate mostly for economic reasons. It's about the fact that these migrants mostly do not assimilate to local culture, but rather keep their own ME culture and then they or the next generation becomes radicalized. That's how you get a separation between the Europeans and Migrants and that's when you get conflict. The problem is that in the conflict between the "Native" Europeans and Muslim migrants, only one side is willing to fight and impose its will via violence. That's why Brussels or any other European city which crosses that threshold doesn't have a chance.

[TimRobbins]

Anytime, a minority asserts itself with power - there is fear. Israel is a powerful country whilst being a distinct minority in the Middle East. It is in their best interests to have a lot of Muslim Arab's in its democracy.

That is one of the weirdest statement's I've seen. Do you realize these Arabs are constantly attacking Jews in Israel? How is that in their interest?

Israel isn't a "regular" country. It's a country that was created to be the homeland on the Jewish people so that what happened in WW2 won't be repeated. You want them to become another Arab nation? If the Jews become a minority in Israel they will be slaughtered up to the last of them.

[musiqsoulchild]

Anytime, a minority asserts itself with power - there is fear. Israel is a powerful country whilst being a distinct minority in the Middle East. It is in their best interests to have a lot of Muslim Arab's in its democracy.

That is one of the weirdest statement's I've seen. Do you realize these Arabs are constantly attacking Jews in Israel? How is that in their interest?

Israel isn't a "regular" country. It's a country that was created to be the homeland on the Jewish people so that what happened in WW2 won't be repeated. You want them to become another Arab nation? If the Jews become a minority in Israel they will be slaughtered up to the last of them.

20% is a lot.

And yet, the Israeli society isnt crumbling to Sharia law.

[dice]

Stop fear mongering. Israel itself has 20% Bedouin population - is Israel pretty much over?

But if US and the west stopped backing Israel today, no more Israel tomorrow. Their neighbors along with terrorist groups can not wait for the day they can get rid of them

Of course....also geographical. And demographic superiority.

Anytime, a minority asserts itself with power - there is fear. Israel is a powerful country whilst being a distinct minority in the Middle East. It is in their best interests to have a lot of Muslim Arab's in its democracy.

how so? so surrounding nations will respect them more? i don't see that happening

[musiqsoulchild]

But if US and the west stopped backing Israel today, no more Israel tomorrow. Their neighbors along with terrorist groups can not wait for the day they can get rid of them

Of course....also geographical. And demographic superiority.

Anytime, a minority asserts itself with power - there is fear. Israel is a powerful country whilst being a distinct minority in the Middle East. It is in their best interests to have a lot of Muslim Arab's in its democracy.

how so? so surrounding nations will respect them more? i don't see that happening

No....more like an internal balance to society.

I think homogenous societies have a harder time with national security than one in which multiple races/ethnicities participate.

[TimRobbins]

No....more like an internal balance to society.

I think homogenous societies have a harder time with national security than one in which multiple races/ethnicities participate.

Not sure where the evidence for this statement is coming from. I believe the evidence shows heterogeneous countries are far less stable and have a lot more national security issues. A perfectly homogeneous country like Japan for example is probably the most stable and safe countries in the world.

[TimRobbins]

20% is a lot.

And yet, the Israeli society isnt crumbling to Sharia law.

Of course they are not, because they are actively fighting it. Israeli society has incredible resolve. You can't compare it to European countries who have very little will to fight for their identity.

For the Jews in Israel, it's fight or die. You can't compare their situation to anybody else.

[dice]

No....more like an internal balance to society.

I think homogenous societies have a harder time with national security than one in which multiple races/ethnicities participate.

Not sure where the evidence for this statement is coming from. I believe the evidence shows heterogeneous countries are far less stable and have a lot more national security issues. A perfectly homogeneous country like Japan for example is probably the most stable and safe countries in the world.

well yeah, they disbanded their military after WWII and became culturally opposed to conflict

[TimRobbins]

well yeah, they disbanded their military after WWII and became culturally opposed to conflict

Europeans did something very similar. The difference between Europe's situation and Japan's, is Japan's unwillingness to take in immigrants.

In any case, without a formal empirical test, my strong prior would be that the more homogeneous the country is, the LESS national security issues it faces.

[MF Danger Mouse]

Nationalism is an ideology, what is Religion if not an ideology? That's all it is in its most basic form. So you don't make any good argument there.

Well for one the US has no official religion and two they aren't attacking in the name of Christianity is my point. ISIS and other terrorist groups there destroy in the name of God.

I was looking for the list of Christian terrorist attacks in the name of Christianity in 2015, I know there are some and want to compare

The Third Reich had no religious basis either--actually kind of anti-religion--and yet anti-Semitism was a strong driver for the Nationalistic movement: blame a certain sect of the population for the overall problems, then slowly (really slowly) enact laws and policy to marginalize that segment further and further until your overall populace is either so indifferent or completely unaware of just how far they've come in their path towards evil.

I am not saying that the United States is on that path. I am saying that, just because religion isn't the advertised driver, doesn't mean that it isn't in there somewhere. Hatred and irrational/ignorant fear of a particular religion is a pretty strong driver in and of itself. It's what I've seen in this thread as a microcosm for America as a whole. That is scary to me.

As I've mentioned before in this thread, we can selectively quote every religious text out there and find things we all would agree to be barbaric and evil. Consider the many events in Christian history that involved wanton violence as sanctioned by the Pope himself in the name of God and Jesus Christ, in the interest of conversion.

Look at the Native Americans, if you can find one. Entire populations wiped out or forced on to reservations to preserve their culture. Look at all of Latin America - conversion or death in the name of God. Interpretations of God - Savonarola was burned at the stake.

Islam is not inherently evil. Christianity is not inherently evil. No religion is, but every religion except, maybe, Buddhism, has had people who have used it as a tool to convince "followers" to do incredible evil.

Part of what makes America so great is that we are supposed to be able to recognize that, while the method may differ, our goals are the same. We all want to be good, be just, be kind, be honest, and be humble. Whether we believe that to be by the will of Allah/Jehovah or through another God or through ourselves, we all strive to be all of these good things, and furthermore, we accept and embrace each other for our differences as much as our similarities.

Some views in this thread are worrisome.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

Buddhists recently committed genocide.

[musiqsoulchild]

Well for one the US has no official religion and two they aren't attacking in the name of Christianity is my point. ISIS and other terrorist groups there destroy in the name of God.

I was looking for the list of Christian terrorist attacks in the name of Christianity in 2015, I know there are some and want to compare

The Third Reich had no religious basis either--actually kind of anti-religion--and yet anti-Semitism was a strong driver for the Nationalistic movement: blame a certain sect of the population for the overall problems, then slowly (really slowly) enact laws and policy to marginalize that segment further and further until your overall populace is either so indifferent or completely unaware of just how far they've come in their path towards evil.

I am not saying that the United States is on that path. I am saying that, just because religion isn't the advertised driver, doesn't mean that it isn't in there somewhere. Hatred and irrational/ignorant fear of a particular religion is a pretty strong driver in and of itself. It's what I've seen in this thread as a microcosm for America as a whole. That is scary to me.

As I've mentioned before in this thread, we can selectively quote every religious text out there and find things we all would agree to be barbaric and evil. Consider the many events in Christian history that involved wanton violence as sanctioned by the Pope himself in the name of God and Jesus Christ, in the interest of conversion.

Look at the Native Americans, if you can find one. Entire populations wiped out or forced on to reservations to preserve their culture. Look at all of Latin America - conversion or death in the name of God. Interpretations of God - Savonarola was burned at the stake.

Islam is not inherently evil. Christianity is not inherently evil. No religion is, but every religion except, maybe, Buddhism, has had people who have used it as a tool to convince "followers" to do incredible evil.

Part of what makes America so great is that we are supposed to be able to recognize that, while the method may differ, our goals are the same. We all want to be good, be just, be kind, be honest, and be humble. Whether we believe that to be by the will of Allah/Jehovah or through another God or through ourselves, we all strive to be all of these good things, and furthermore, we accept and embrace each other for our differences as much as our similarities.

Some views in this thread are worrisome.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

Buddhists recently committed genocide.

Are you referring to Rohingyas in Myanmar?

[musiqsoulchild]

41 Iraqi's killed in an ISIS suicide attack at a soccer game.

50 Pakistanis killed today in another suicide attack.

Is there no genocide being perpetrated against Muslims? Thats 3 times the death toll of Brussels in just one week.