Sign Edwin.... let Bautista go

[The_Hater]

1. If by adding Gavin Floyd and Jessie Chavez you believe the Jays have depth at starting pitching you're kidding yourself. And if that is the case, and you believe the Jays current rotation can win a World Series, I can't continue to debate with you. I am not disagreeing that STL was in the right by keeping Pujols and then letting him walk, same with BOS and Ellsbury. The problem with your logic in both those cases was: THEY HAD GREAT STARTING PITCHING. On top of that, STL made that deal with us for Edwin Jackson, Octavio Dotel and the lefty Mark R. which put them over the top with depth.

Stroman
Estrada
Happ
Dickey
Hutch/Floyd/Sanchez

This rotation will not net you a WS ring.

I wasn't going to respond to your posts like others here since you seem like a troll.. but how are Floyd and Chavez not depth? What the hell do you consider depth? Do you think every MLB team has 10 reliable starters?

The rotation is fine, all they have to do is give them a chance to win every day and they'll win lots of games. Look at the 2013 Red Sox for example, since you hate the 2015 Royals example.

With the attitude you have, why even watch the Jays this year if you truly believe what you're saying?

Right, the 2013 Red Sox rotation who had Peavy, Lester, Lackey, Buchholz...and a decent pen of Bailey, Miller, and Uehara.

Not trying to troll, but this board is high on EE and Jose unnecessarily. Sometimes, change is good, especially if you're trying to shore up other areas and build long-term, not for 1 year when, as many others have claimed, the luck element is just as important. And clearly I'm not the only one who thinks that way. See Centre Court's comment above mine.

The BoSox ranked 6th out of 14 teams in AL ERA in 2013. Their pitching wasn't bad but that team was fueled primarily by their offense.

By comparison, the Jays ranked 5th in AL ERA last season and weren't actually that far behind 1st. This despite only 2 months of Price (albeit 2 great months), 1 month of Stroman and poor performances out of the 4-5 spots in the rotation for most of the first 4 months. Although Price isn't around, the number 1 spot in the rotation looks stronger now than it did the first 4 months of last season with Stroman around for the full season. And the back end of the rotation + depth spots look better as well.

This might not be the murderer's row of pitching staffs like the 1990's Atlanta Braves but it definitely looks like one of the better ones in the AL despite your claims. Those Braves and all their HOF starting pitchers only won one World Series BTW.

[The Duke]

You just need to play this one out with the both of them.
Go try and win a championship (this team is equiped to be in the playoffs).
I'm on the side where I'm okay with trying to win for 1 year, letting them both walk, maybe having a down year, and then regrouping thereafter..... players get old, it happens... you don't go and make the situation worse, by locking yourself into a high potential bad contract, that will keep you just bad enough to handicap future changes.

[northernpuppy]

I wasn't going to respond to your posts like others here since you seem like a troll.. but how are Floyd and Chavez not depth? What the hell do you consider depth? Do you think every MLB team has 10 reliable starters?

The rotation is fine, all they have to do is give them a chance to win every day and they'll win lots of games. Look at the 2013 Red Sox for example, since you hate the 2015 Royals example.

With the attitude you have, why even watch the Jays this year if you truly believe what you're saying?

Right, the 2013 Red Sox rotation who had Peavy, Lester, Lackey, Buchholz...and a decent pen of Bailey, Miller, and Uehara.

Not trying to troll, but this board is high on EE and Jose unnecessarily. Sometimes, change is good, especially if you're trying to shore up other areas and build long-term, not for 1 year when, as many others have claimed, the luck element is just as important. And clearly I'm not the only one who thinks that way. See Centre Court's comment above mine.

Yes, but all 4 of those starters were coming off bad years. Nobody thought it was a good rotation going into that season.

Anyway, I agree with Centre Court's opinion. There's no need to trade them when you can ride it out for this season and see if you can get them for a better price, and if not, you take the draft picks.

Your opinion is more extreme in saying the Jays can't win a World Series this year when in fact we have a great roster and to give up on it before the season starts is ridiculous.

Alright, I'll concede to that, as I also agree with Centre Court. My position has always been we should trade them, but I never meant that to mean right this second. If that's at the deadline or when the perceived best return is available then pull the trigger. But my main opposition has always been this Jose and EE lovefest.

[C Court]

Bautista and Encarnacion are looking for long term deals and Shapiro is right to not cave. The market for both is limited. No National League team can afford to pay $20 million+ for bench bats - which is what both will eventually become.

So that leaves NYY, Boston, LAL, Texas, Baltimore, Chicago Sox, Seattle and maybe Detroit as potential suitors. Not sure anyone will meet their asking price.

[polo007]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/winnipegsun/status/712415593949859840[/tweet]

LAKELAND, Fla. — Edwin Encarnacion has not asked for a five-year deal.

So says Paul Kinzler, his agent.

“I don’t like to negotiate in the newspaper, but since it’s out there (via Sportsnet) I’ll answer,” Kinzler said from Phoenix.

“We have never put a number on the terms of the length of the contract. We have never discussed a dollar amount.”

The Sportsnet report compares Encarnacion to DH Travis Hafner, two “aging, bad-bodied, one-dimensional DH types.”

“Edwin is strong as an ox, he doesn’t have a bad body,” said Kinzler.

Jays president Mark Shapiro must decide what to do as Encarnacion is eligible for free agency at the end of the season. As general manager of the Cleveland Indians, he signed Hafner to a four-year, $57 million US deal.

[Busterking]

I wouldn't sign them to more then 3 years. Trade them or QO.

[The_Hater]

Regardless of what happens with Bautista, I think that any contract Edwin signs will end up being a bad one. He just seems to be breaking down. Bigger guys like Edwin rarely age well in baseball, those are the players that always fade fast in their 30's. Ortiz is the exception more than the rule.

[Xaos]

I wouldn't sign them to more then 3 years. Trade them or QO.

Same here. 3 years max. No more than $30 million for Jose, and $20 Million for Edwin.

You take away both of them and you have no protection for Donaldson and Tulo in the lineup.

Buck Martinez said, "They can win 2 or 3 World Series with this group of players" - Buck Martinez earlier today on #TimandSid.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/shows/tim-and-sid-show/jays-team-can-win-2-3-world-series-buck-martinez-ts/

[The_Hater]

I wouldn't sign them to more then 3 years. Trade them or QO.

Same here. 3 years max. No more than $30 million for Jose, and $20 Million for Edwin.

You take away both of them and you have no protection for Donaldson and Tulo in the lineup.

Buck Martinez said, "They can win 2 or 3 World Series with this group of players" - Buck Martinez earlier today on #TimandSid.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/shows/tim-and-sid-show/jays-team-can-win-2-3-world-series-buck-martinez-ts/

Don't listen to Buck. There is nothing more overrated in MLB then the theory that players need 'protection in the lineup'. There's no statistical proof that exists. In fact Tulowitzki, who he mentions, was having one of the worst offensive stretches of his career with Donaldson and Bautista hitting behind him.

Losing those 2 sluggers will undoubtedly hurt the offense but that's because we'd be subtracting 2 of the best hitters in baseball, not because the rest of the lineup will suddenly start hitting poorly without them. But the team will be hurt even more if those 2 are tying up 35% of the payroll and are either injured or ineffective due to age. That's $50 million that can still be spent on other players.

[northernpuppy]

I wouldn't sign them to more then 3 years. Trade them or QO.

Same here. 3 years max. No more than $30 million for Jose, and $20 Million for Edwin.

You take away both of them and you have no protection for Donaldson and Tulo in the lineup.

Buck Martinez said, "They can win 2 or 3 World Series with this group of players" - Buck Martinez earlier today on #TimandSid.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/shows/tim-and-sid-show/jays-team-can-win-2-3-world-series-buck-martinez-ts/

Don't listen to Buck. There is nothing more overrated in MLB then the theory that players need 'protection in the lineup'. There's no statistical proof that exists. In fact Tulowitzki, who he mentions, was having one of the worst offensive stretches of his career with Donaldson and Bautista hitting behind him.

Losing those 2 sluggers will undoubtedly hurt the offense but that's because we'd be subtracting 2 of the best hitters in baseball, not because the rest of the lineup will suddenly start hitting poorly without them. But the team will be hurt even more if those 2 are tying up 35% of the payroll and are either injured or ineffective due to age. That's $50 million that can still be spent on other players.

So what exactly are you advocating? You and I went back and forth on the idea that the Jays should keep EE and Jose when I said you might as well trade them to get some club-controlled return on the assets.

Based on your posting, I assume you're saying that the Jays should ride out the year with them and hope that we win a pennant and potentially a WS ring and then let them walk without getting tied up in long-term, ineffective deals. If that's the case, I think that's overlooking the clubhouse morale variable.

[The_Hater]

Same here. 3 years max. No more than $30 million for Jose, and $20 Million for Edwin.

You take away both of them and you have no protection for Donaldson and Tulo in the lineup.

Buck Martinez said, "They can win 2 or 3 World Series with this group of players" - Buck Martinez earlier today on #TimandSid.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/shows/tim-and-sid-show/jays-team-can-win-2-3-world-series-buck-martinez-ts/

Don't listen to Buck. There is nothing more overrated in MLB then the theory that players need 'protection in the lineup'. There's no statistical proof that exists. In fact Tulowitzki, who he mentions, was having one of the worst offensive stretches of his career with Donaldson and Bautista hitting behind him.

Losing those 2 sluggers will undoubtedly hurt the offense but that's because we'd be subtracting 2 of the best hitters in baseball, not because the rest of the lineup will suddenly start hitting poorly without them. But the team will be hurt even more if those 2 are tying up 35% of the payroll and are either injured or ineffective due to age. That's $50 million that can still be spent on other players.

So what exactly are you advocating? You and I went back and forth on the idea that the Jays should keep EE and Jose when I said you might as well trade them to get some club-controlled return on the assets.

Based on your posting, I assume you're saying that the Jays should ride out the year with them and hope that we win a pennant and potentially a WS ring and then let them walk without getting tied up in long-term, ineffective deals. If that's the case, I think that's overlooking the clubhouse morale variable.

I think that signing extensions with either of them aren't happening before the season starts. Keep them both for the 2016 season which they might be apart of a playoff team. They're attached to draft pick compensation which may increase the odds of resigning one of them in 2017. Of course a lot could change in the next 7 months as well If the season blows up and the Jays are out of it came July, they can still be dealt at that time.

I've never been that high on resigning both and if I had a choice I'd definitely want Jose all things being equal. But his contract demands seem to indicate that it's likely he won't be returning. Lots can change in a season though.

I'm not a big believer in this being a clubhouse moral issue. Every team enters the season with mutilple pending free-agents, even the eventual WS champs. its one of those things fans like to point to as a problem only when things go poorly. If they go well, then the narrative changes to how well all these players performed because it was a contract year.

[Ong_dynasty]

I think that signing extensions with either of them aren't happening before the season starts. Keep them both for the 2016 season which they might be apart of a playoff team. They're attached to draft pick compensation which may increase the odds of resigning one of them in 2017. Of course a lot could change in the next 7 months as well If the season blows up and the Jays are out of it came July, they can still be dealt at that time.

I've never been that high on resigning both and if I had a choice I'd definitely want Jose all things being equal. But his contract demands seem to indicate that it's likely he won't be returning. Lots can change in a season though.

I'm not a big believer in this being a clubhouse moral issue. Every team enters the season with mutilple pending free-agents, even the eventual WS champs. its one of those things fans like to point to as a problem only when things go poorly. If they go well, then the narrative changes to how well all these players performed because it was a contract year.

Im with you here. at the moment my stance is somewhere around the 2+1 or 3 year kind of deals area.

I mean this moral issue is abit of a joke. If they cannot be professionals, why would you want to sign them long term? They are also trying to raise their values, what better way than leading the team to a WS.

[suntzuballin]

i always like jose but if it ties down the jays for years to come then best of luck.wont lose that much in offensive and just as effective with big 3 of edwing\donaldson\tolu.

[tecumseh18]

I think that signing extensions with either of them aren't happening before the season starts. Keep them both for the 2016 season which they might be apart of a playoff team. They're attached to draft pick compensation which may increase the odds of resigning one of them in 2017. Of course a lot could change in the next 7 months as well If the season blows up and the Jays are out of it came July, they can still be dealt at that time.

I've never been that high on resigning both and if I had a choice I'd definitely want Jose all things being equal. But his contract demands seem to indicate that it's likely he won't be returning. Lots can change in a season though.

I'm not a big believer in this being a clubhouse moral issue. Every team enters the season with mutilple pending free-agents, even the eventual WS champs. its one of those things fans like to point to as a problem only when things go poorly. If they go well, then the narrative changes to how well all these players performed because it was a contract year.

Im with you here. at the moment my stance is somewhere around the 2+1 or 3 year kind of deals area.

I mean this moral issue is abit of a joke. If they cannot be professionals, why would you want to sign them long term? They are also trying to raise their values, what better way than leading the team to a WS.

Just a heads up:

moral = good, as opposed to sinful.
morale = degree of group happiness/camaraderie

Baseball morale has never meant anything. Reggie Jackson (not the basketball player) never improved the morale of a clubhouse he was in. But he sure won.

[Throwback24]

Resign them both for whatever they want.

[Wo1verine]

How does the team get better in the short-term?

Shapiro doesn't like to trade top end prospects and we sure as hell aren't going to sign top free agents when they see bats and EE are leaving nor will we spend what's necessary anyways, so what's the plan after this year?
I wish we had the ability to eat a bad contract in the long-term for short-term success.

[The_Hater]

How does the team get better in the short-term?

Shapiro doesn't like to trade top end prospects and we sure as hell aren't going to sign top free agents when they see bats and EE are leaving nor will we spend what's necessary anyways, so what's the plan after this year?
I wish we had the ability to eat a bad contract in the long-term for short-term success.

Maybe, but situations aren't stagnant. Sharpiro could still make a prospects for players trade if it makes sense for the Jays and attendance could be so good this year coupled with a rebounding Canadian dollar that Rogers could add a lot of money to the payroll both in July and in 2017.

[polo007]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/bnicholsonsmith/status/715007559267016704[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/715251552106258433[/tweet]

[RIP Kobe]

Can't believe what I'm reading here.


So you have a player that's injury prone, but you're okay with keeping him because of "respect".

And you have a player that showed no signs of slowing down last season, was the main reason why we were even in the ALCS, yet we're supposed to let him walk because he wants his money.

THIS is why Toronto will never be winners. We always push our stars away because of corporate greed. This goes for the Raptors, Leafs and Blue Jays.

[Steelo Green]

Not that I necessarily put stock in it but Zaun said Jose will be out and he thinks Edwin signs QO, then a final deal of his career wherever.