Better Defensively: Kawhi Leonard VS Draymond Green

[mdonnelly1989]

Kawhi is considered the best perimeter defender in the league. And won DPOY last season while Draymond finished in a tight race for 2nd. I would not have been surprised if Green won it last season, and has a legit case for the better defensive player.

(This has less to do with his versatility and more at actually causing havoc on Defense)

[Dupp]

Hard to split the but draymond was robbed of dpoy last year.

[UDRIH14]

this year, kawhi will win another dpoy...his been stopping alot of the elite perimeter players this year

[lambchop]

Kawhi is the superior 1on1 stopper. He's the type of guy, who'll make lebron, melo, george etc. have to choose between missing the vast majority of their shots or being passive and seeming like they dont want to compete

[AceofSpades69]

Two elite defensive units. I give Kawhi the edge although I think he sometimes gets a tad bit overrated on defense. He is amazing, but not god-tier yet (meaning top 10 or top 15 perimeter defenders of all time) IMO.

[penbeast0]

Two elite defensive units. I give Kawhi the edge although I think he sometimes gets a tad bit overrated on defense. He is amazing, but not god-tier yet (meaning top 10 or top 15 perimeter defenders of all time) IMO.

What 10 perimeter defenders would you say are better? (not saying I disagree, just haven't done that thinking yet)

[GSP]

I think its almost a push this season, would give Kawhi the award based on the historic defense as well and Draymond not being quite as consistent post Allstar break. Draymond was better defensively last season and shouldve won Dpoy then. Kawhi performed very poorly on both ends in the playoffs, especially got bamboozled on those high screen and rolls with Cp3. Draymond was consistently excellent for the most part

[tmorgan]

Better at what he does? Kawhi.

More valuable as a defender overall? Draymond. It's all about interior D.

[lorak]

Green isn't typical big man, who protects the paint and his defensive FG% at rim is actually worse than Kawhi's (but volume not close). He is also worse at p&r and Leonard is the best defender (among high minutes players) on a team, that is much (5.1 DRTG!) better defensively. So looks like choice here is obvious.

PS
Spurs are on pace to record 9th best R_DRTG of all time.

[AceofSpades69]

Two elite defensive units. I give Kawhi the edge although I think he sometimes gets a tad bit overrated on defense. He is amazing, but not god-tier yet (meaning top 10 or top 15 perimeter defenders of all time) IMO.

What 10 perimeter defenders would you say are better? (not saying I disagree, just haven't done that thinking yet)

I've just created a topic on this subject. I personally rate peak Tony Allen, Pippen, Artest, Jordan, Payton, Moncrief, Cooper, Marion, Alvin Robertson and Doug Christie higher than Kawhi, although I admit it's highly debatable. Then, Bowen, Battier, AK, Jerry West and others are names to consider aswell. Regarding great perimeter defense, I guess there will never be a consensus top 5 let alone top 10. But this is my view on it. Kawhi is surely going to go up on my list in the future. '16 Playoffs might eventually get him in my top 5, I'm not really sure, it's very hard to rate perimeter defense of this level. Because then there is a tendency to overrate great two way players over defensive specialists ore elite defensive role-players. And defense changed a lot over the last eras which makes it very tough to compare Jerry West or Jerry Sloan (for example) and post 80's perimeter defenders.

[RightToCensor]

Oversized SF vs Undersized PF

[TMU]

Both are terrific but I prefer Kawhi because of the range of positions he is capable of guarding. Green obviously is superior inside (on and off ball) but I think what often gets ignored is that Kawhi is also a great help defender in the paint. Kawhi also has more offensive responsibility and I think we see his best defense when the Spurs are less dependent on his offense.

Here's a cool video that I saw that really captures some of his strengths. When he's on, he makes defense really fun to watch again and very few players are capable of doing that.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hnZ_knty6s[/youtube]

[Quotatious]

Oversized SF vs Undersized PF

Kawhi isn't "oversized" for a SF, by any means. His size is pretty typical for the SF position.

[LA Bird]

I have them roughly equal on a per possession basis, with a slight advantage to Draymond because he played more minutes.

Green isn't typical big man, who protects the paint and his defensive FG% at rim is actually worse than Kawhi's (but volume not close).

True, but Green's DFG% on 3 pointers is a lot better and overall, his opponent FG% dropoff is also larger. He isn't a traditional big man but that doesn't mean he can't have huge defensive impact as well.

Leonard is the best defender (among high minutes players) on a team, that is much (5.1 DRTG!) better defensively.

That is largely due to Spurs still having a top 3 defense without Kawhi whereas Warriors' defense are the worst in the league without Draymond. Remove the Spurs advantage in bench minutes and the difference is only around 1.5~2 DRtg.

[lorak]

True, but Green's DFG% on 3 pointers is a lot better and overall, his opponent FG% dropoff is also larger.

When I can check these 2 things?

That is largely due to Spurs still having a top 3 defense without Kawhi whereas Warriors' defense are the worst in the league without Draymond. Remove the Spurs advantage in bench minutes and the difference is only around 1.5~2 DRtg.

Still quite big and when we have such 2 comparable players it's enough to give one advantage.

[LA Bird]

True, but Green's DFG% on 3 pointers is a lot better and overall, his opponent FG% dropoff is also larger.

When I can check these 2 things?

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203110/tracking/defense/
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202695/tracking/defense/

DFG% (2s, 3s, Overall)
Green: -6.0, -5.3, -6.0
Kawhi: -7.6, -0.3, -5.6

[lorak]

Thx LA Bird. I find it odd that isn't accessible from main tracking data page. I wish nba.com was so user friendly like b-r.

EDIT
It's impressive how much higher is Green's defensive volume (on some types of plays from synergy too), especially considering that he defends at better/comparable level. Seems Drymond is like volume superstar shooter, who carries a lot of offensive load, while Kawhi more like role player in Korver's type.

[colts18]

Thx LA Bird. I find it odd that isn't accessible from main tracking data page. I wish nba.com was so user friendly like b-r.

EDIT
It's impressive how much higher is Green's defensive volume (on some types of plays from synergy too), especially considering that he defends at better/comparable level. Seems Drymond is like volume superstar shooter, who carries a lot of offensive load, while Kawhi more like role player in Korver's type.

It's on the main NBA stats page.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/defense/#!/?sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*G*50

[lorak]

Ok, but it's not under "player tracking --> defensive impact". NBA.com is messed up in comparison to b-r.

[countryboy667]

I'm not going to deny Leonard isn't a top-tier defender, but in my mind the question remains--is that just because of having just overwhelming skills, or because of the system he plays in and the personnel he plays with.
No disrespect to Kawhi, but it's much easier looking super supported by a Tim Duncan (even in the twilight of his career) Tony Parker, and the other personnel the Spurs have playing under Pop's system. I think if you put a Durant, Butler, or a George, etc,. etc,. in the same circumstances, they would get the same kind of results and raves.