'15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#61 » by bondom34 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:39 pm

lorak wrote:
bondom34 wrote: FTs aren't the only show of skill, Okafor has no skill, which is clearly false in his post game. Rondo has no skill, which he clearly does in his ball handling, Tristan Thompson has no skill, which he does in offensive rebounding.


I'm not saying FT is the only skill, so stop with straw man. I'm saying FT% is the only skill, which we can easily, without any doubt, measure.

And if you are explaining Town's 3p shooting by coach, then we can say the same about KP's efficiency (or post up, or whatever we want really). He has poor coach, who doesn't know how to use him, coach who forces triangle (or whatever they try to play) and ballhog in Melo. Such argumentation works two ways, remember that.

Edit: RE defense:

KAT is in the 46th percentile of post up defense.

KP is in the 15th percentile in post defense.

Defense is a lot of factors.


How many teams has post up as no 1 option over p&r? How often overall is postup used and how p&r? You really want to negate, that p&r is more important in modern basketball?!

No, but you don't measure defense by one single measure. And a big man has to be able to defend the post, I don't care how often its used.

And there's no showing KP being misused to the extent you can clearly see Minny uses KAT. They run the offense through Wiggins isos and shoot some of the worst shot distributions in the league. The system is poor and doesn't fit the personnel.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#62 » by lorak » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:23 pm

bondom34 wrote:No, but you don't measure defense by one single measure. And a big man has to be able to defend the post, I don't care how often its used.


So how do you measure defense? How you decide which aspects are more important than others? In basketball p&r is far more important, because teams use it more often - simple as that and that's why better p&r defender is more valuable than better post defender.

And there's no showing KP being misused to the extent you can clearly see Minny uses KAT. They run the offense through Wiggins isos and shoot some of the worst shot distributions in the league. The system is poor and doesn't fit the personnel.


Yet their offense is 1.3 ortg better than NYK's. Shot distribution? Knicks run offense through Melo's isos even more (+2 time more) than Wolves through Wiggins, yes, Carmelo is better in isolations, but that's not good shot distribution either. Or Williams as player with 3rd highest TSA (per 36) on that team. Or how about advantage Rubio gives over Calderon/Grant/Galloway? Or having Dieng in comparison to Lopez?
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#63 » by bondom34 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:41 pm

lorak wrote:
So how do you measure defense? How you decide which aspects are more important than others? In basketball p&r is far more important, because teams use it more often - simple as that and that's why better p&r defender is more valuable than better post defender.

I'd measure a variety of ways, PM data does help but not when the team has quite a few questionable defenders. Both teams here do. I'd measure it using the SportVu data, blocks/steals/rebounds, on/off.

lorak wrote:

Yet their offense is 1.3 ortg better than NYK's. Shot distribution? Knicks run offense through Melo's isos even more (+2 time more) than Wolves through Wiggins, yes, Carmelo is better in isolations, but that's not good shot distribution either. Or Williams as player with 3rd highest TSA (per 36) on that team. Or how about advantage Rubio gives over Calderon/Grant/Galloway? Or having Dieng in comparison to Lopez?

Dieng isn't an advantage to Lopez, and outside Rubio there isn't an experienced NBA player who's above average on Minnesota while NY has Melo, Lopez, and Afflalo. Calderon can still shoot. And as for shot distribution, I'm not talking about teammates, I'm talking about where on the floor teams shoot. Minnesota shoots the second fewest 3s a game, and by far the most long 2s of any team in the league. Nearly 25 percent of their shots are from 16 feet to the 3 point line, league average is 16.3. The Knicks shoot 20 percent of their shots from there and the extra 5 percent difference is all from behind the 3 point line. Porzingis is averaging nearly as many 3PA per game as Minnesota's leading 3 point shooter in attempts (Lavine). Minnesota's offense is built around the most inefficient shots possible.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#64 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:12 pm

How is Towns a better defender because he can defend the post better? Defending post ups is important, but if you were to make a list of things you wanted your big to do, it probably would not be in the top 3 (unless we're talking extreme examples like a 6'5 player playing center or something). How much of a good teams offense is generated from big on big post ups? Probably not that much.

Also, KP is a forward, his value isn't as connected to defending the post as a center would be.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#65 » by bondom34 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:15 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:How is Towns a better defender because he can defend the post better? Defending post ups is important, but if you were to make a list of things you wanted your big to do, it probably would not be in the top 3 (unless we're talking extreme examples like a 6'5 player playing center or something). How much of a good teams offense is generated from big on big post ups? Probably not that much.

Also, KP is a forward, his value isn't as connected to defending the post as a center would be.

I'm not saying that's the only information used, he's blocking more shots, similar steals, better rebounder.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#66 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:18 pm

This argument about defense is interesting. We still find that traditional rim protecting bigs are very valuable so I'm confused why some are suggesting otherwise. I mean was Tim Duncan not a great defender because he did it differently than KG? Is Bogut not a good defender because he does it differently than Draymond?

I don't think either Porzingis or Towns is nearly good defensively right now for anyone to name Porzingis ROY over Towns. Does he have some tools that give him the potential to be the superior defender? Sure. But defense is not just about physical tools. It's about drive and intelligence and scheme and more. And it feels way too soon to close that debate.

Plus its about who had the better overall year right now. Not some theoretical debate that ignores the actual individuals involved.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#67 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:24 pm

bondom34 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:How is Towns a better defender because he can defend the post better? Defending post ups is important, but if you were to make a list of things you wanted your big to do, it probably would not be in the top 3 (unless we're talking extreme examples like a 6'5 player playing center or something). How much of a good teams offense is generated from big on big post ups? Probably not that much.

Also, KP is a forward, his value isn't as connected to defending the post as a center would be.

I'm not saying that's the only information used, he's blocking more shots, similar steals, better rebounder.

Towns is blocking more shots in what sense? Blocking rate and BPG are in Porzingis favor.

Porzingis is a better rim protector and PNR defender from what the stats show. Those are probably the two most important aspects that a big has to be good at, plus rebounding, though Porzingis is hardly a liability there.

This argument about defense is interesting. We still find that traditional rim protecting bigs are very valuable so I'm confused why some are suggesting otherwise. I mean was Tim Duncan not a great defender because he did it differently than KG? Is Bogut not a good defender because he does it differently than Draymond?


There is a difference between being different and being inferior. KP is better at the rim and at defending the PNR. Bogut and Duncan are both good PNR defenders among other things thus in a comparison against KG/Green it's not as clear cut as who is just the better PNR defender. while Towns is a very weak PNR defender which heavily mitigates some of his other strengths (some of which are not necessarily advantages over Porzingis in a defensive comparison).
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#68 » by bondom34 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:26 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:How is Towns a better defender because he can defend the post better? Defending post ups is important, but if you were to make a list of things you wanted your big to do, it probably would not be in the top 3 (unless we're talking extreme examples like a 6'5 player playing center or something). How much of a good teams offense is generated from big on big post ups? Probably not that much.

Also, KP is a forward, his value isn't as connected to defending the post as a center would be.

I'm not saying that's the only information used, he's blocking more shots, similar steals, better rebounder.

Towns is blocking more shots in what sense? Blocking rate and BPG are in Porzingis favor.

Porzingis is a better rim protector and PNR defender from what the stats show.

:banghead: I flipped them in my head. Either way, they've both got certain advantages defensively to me, and Towns has better ability offensively.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#69 » by lorak » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:51 pm

Lets look at most detailed defensive stats available:

Code: Select all

KP   KAT   TYPE
0.83   0.92   spotup
0.78   0.88   iso
1.18   no plays   ballhandler
0.85   1.00   rollman
1.06   0.88   postup
1.31   no plays   handoff
0.88   1.33   off screen
47.7   48.5   DFG%
1.4   2.2   CDRB
20.8   27.1   DRB%
1.3   1.1   STL%
5.0   4.3   BLK%


Towns is better defensive rebounder and post defender. Other than that Porzingis looks like better and more versatile defensive player. (and BTW, that's why "eye test" says too.) He is not only better in every p&r and perimeter category (in some of them KAT doesn't even have 1 defensive play, what tells a lot about his commitment to play away from rim), but also slightly ahead in defending the rim.

The one thing he is worse at, is postup, but at the same time he is better in insolations. It's also worth to keep in mind how often is postup used in modern game and how often p&r, off screen or spotup. So while KP is worse in defending the post I think it's not big deal considering postup is not often used and is one of the worst option on offense (yes, postup offense isn't too effective) - plus Porzingis is still better at rim defender, so it's not like he is worse in the paint.

KAT's 2nd and last advantage, defensive rebounding, is huge, but DRBs are often team effort (I know, the same is with p&r defense, or defense in general, or basketball in general ;)). I mean, several years ago it was discussed here how despite relatively bad redbounding numbers Nene was elite rebounder (in a sense, that he very positively impacted team DRB%), because of his hard work like boxingup. I'm not saying that's the case here too, but look how NYK and MIN DRB% numbers change with KP and KAT on/off the floor:

Code: Select all

TYPE   KP   KAT
ON   76.4%   73.9%
OFF   75.0%   76.6%
DIFF   +1.4%   -2.7


More research with lineups should be done, but it at least should made us think about their defensive rebounding. Anyway, seems like overall KP is a big, who gives team both: perimeter defense and rim protection, while also maybe positively impacts team DRBs. Towns only strength is postup defense and probably defensive rebounding, but that's definitely not enough to say he is better or even at least at the same level defensively as Porzingis, who looks like modern day defensive big (mobility, reach, defense at rim and away from it).
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#70 » by ceiling raiser » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:28 pm

lorak who are your top three for DPOY?
Now that's the difference between first and last place.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#71 » by bondom34 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:30 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:This argument about defense is interesting. We still find that traditional rim protecting bigs are very valuable so I'm confused why some are suggesting otherwise. I mean was Tim Duncan not a great defender because he did it differently than KG? Is Bogut not a good defender because he does it differently than Draymond?

I don't think either Porzingis or Towns is nearly good defensively right now for anyone to name Porzingis ROY over Towns. Does he have some tools that give him the potential to be the superior defender? Sure. But defense is not just about physical tools. It's about drive and intelligence and scheme and more. And it feels way too soon to close that debate.

Plus its about who had the better overall year right now. Not some theoretical debate that ignores the actual individuals involved.

This is the issue to me, and KAT's offense is better to me than KP. I think (numbers or not) he's got similar shooting ability with better post skill.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#72 » by lorak » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:39 pm

fpliii wrote:lorak who are your top three for DPOY?


I don't know, haven't looked into that yet. I'm only sure Kawhi will be in that three.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#73 » by The-Power » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:13 pm

The talk about defense is interesting but one thing is pretty clear: Porzingis does look like the superior defender beyond the box score. SportsVU data shows a clear advantage, on/off data leaves us with the same impression, RPM and RAPM favor him heavily on defense.

Let's look at the impact on offense. Let's break down individually used offensive possessions and determine the threshold for what Porzingis has to offer more in terms of spacing, playmaking, screen setting etc. (let's call it 'additional impact') in oder to make up for the individual gap on a team level. Numbers I use are for 100 offensive possessions, FTs are multiplied by the common factor 0.44. It's getting late over here, so I can't guarantee 100% accuracy.

Towns ends 27.8 possessions (24.3 TSA, 3.5 TOV). These 27.8 ended possessions create 29.1 individual points, which means roughly 1.047 PPP. 72.2 possessions are left for his teammates. He also grabs 4.5 OREB to get his team extra possessions.

Porzingis incidentally ends 27.8 possessions as well (24.8 TSA, 3.0 TOV). These 27.8 ended possessions create 25.8 individual points, which means roughly 0.928 PPP. 72.2 possessions are left for his teammates. He also grabs 3.3 OREB to get his teams extra possessions.

For the sake of comparison, we must look at the data for the average team in order to make this comparison viable. I realize that teammates are important when it comes to individual contributions in the form of scoring and turning the ball over as well, but this isn't something we can't take into consideration here since there is no way to objectively quantify it.

The league-average TOV% is 13.2 which means that statistically, 62.7 of the 72.2 possession end in scoring attempts. The league-average TS% is at 54.1, i.e. these 62.7 possessions generate 67.8 points or 1.082 PPTSA. The players points per 100 plus the team's points (67.8 in both cases) gives us the number of the average team production plus the player's individual contribution per 100 possessions. Number for Towns: 96.9. Number for Porzingis: 93.6. The difference: 3.3.

If we assume that neither player has a positive or negative influence on the TOV% of the rest of his team, Porzingis additional impact would have to equal 3.3 Points for those 62.7 Possessions in order to be equally effective on offense at the team level. This means, in concrete numbers, an increase 2.6% of his teammates TS% (to give an impression of the extent: this is roughly the difference between the second best offense and league average, or the second worst offense and league average).

This number grows if we substract the OREB from the possessions a player ends by himself, because he regains possessions for his team. This seems fair if we rate Porzingis'' spacing effect to Towns' properly, as playing under the rim often goes hand in hand with less spacing effect on these possessions by design. In doing so, the difference between their numbers (see above) becomes 4.5 (101.2 - 96.7), while the opportunities for his team to make up for this difference increases by roughly 2.8 possessions (applying the league-average TOV% for possessions after offensive rebounds; the actual TOV% is probably a little lower, though) to 65.5. In order to make up for 4.5 Points in 65.5 scoring possessions, the TS% of his teammates must increase by 3.4% instead of 2.6%.

At the same time, we must factor in the possessions a team regains from offensive rebounds after Porzingis' and Towns' missed attempts. This obviously works in Porzingis' favor, statistically, who misses more shots than Towns. It is somewhat flawed to simply use the league average OREB% as misses from Towns and Porzingis, two big men, should be rebounded by their own teammates less often. It is probably, however, not seldomly the case that Towns and Porzingis grab their own missess around the rim which would already be captured by the individual offensive rebound numbers, which were already used before. Also, Porzingis misses should be rebounded more often due to the longer distance on his shots on average and the fact that he plays at the 4 while Towns plays Center.

Anyway, if we also factor in missed shots - not counting offensive rebounds after missed free throws, the number is probably negligible - then the numbers change again. Using the league-average OREB% is probably slightly beneficial to Towns in this comparison in theory as he plays Center, but applying the average OREB% for misses of big men also benefits Porzingis as he misses more shots. The OREB% of the league is at 23.8. So, Towns 9.9 misses should result in 2.36 extra possessions, Porzingis 12.8 misses should result in 3.05 extra possessions. Adjusted for turnovers, these gives their teams 2.05 and 2.65 extra scoring possessions respectively.

Calculating with league-average TS% after offensive rebounds, the difference to make up for decreases from 4.5 to 3.9 (103.4 - 99.5). Porzingis' team now has 68.15 scoring possessions to score 3.9 extra points in order to be as efficient as Towns' team on offense. This means the TS% must increase by 2.85% based on Porzingis additional impact.

I'm not entirely sure if bbref uses their glossary-definition of possession when calculating the per 100 possession averages as well (they probably do), which would skew the results to some extent because of how offensive rebounds are treated in the formula IIRC but let's disregard potential implications for a moment as you should get the idea and roughly accurate numbers anyway.
____________________________________

Long story short: without looking at factors at the team level influencing individual production, Porzingis' average team must have a +2.85 TS% in order to be as efficient as Towns' average team. The question is: does Porzingis' additional impact (spacing, playmaking, screen-setting etc.) produces this difference compared to Towns on similarly talented and constructed teams? I doubt it, at this point, but others may disagree. But at least we now have a number - a threshold - to look at.

Note that this is only factoring in offense and also doesn't include the negative impact of turnovers defensively (only offensively, as a lost possession). So the slightly higher number of turnovers committed by Towns would be something to look at when we compare defense at a team level. As I wrote above, I also won't guarantee accuracy as it's late and I quickly calculated it. It was a fun exercise but please do not quote me in your scientific papers. :D

edit: talking about accuracy, I edited the TSA presented above which where wrong by 1. But I calculated with the correct number, so the results remain unaffected.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#74 » by lorak » Fri Apr 1, 2016 9:46 am

^
I don't know if that makes sense (interesting try, tough), but even if does, then we have to do something similar with defense (and that would be really difficult), because otherwise we wouldn't know if KAT's offensive advantage is bigger and thus if his overall impact is better.

Anyway, no one (even RAPM ;]) claims that KP is better on offense, he is no doubt worse, but not as much, as box score suggest.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#75 » by lorak » Fri Apr 1, 2016 6:41 pm

Thx to LA Bird we can add another piece of information about defense. From player tracking data, how they defend 3 and 2 pointers:

3P
Towns 1.8 DFGA, 41.4%, +5.6 diff
KP 2.8 DFGA, 30.5%, -4.6 diff

2P
Towns 11.3 DFGA, 48.6%, -1.6 diff
KP 10.7 DFGA, 44.6%, -5.5 diff

So again Porzingis looks like superior defender, while KAT just ok and bad at perimeter.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#76 » by The-Power » Fri Apr 1, 2016 7:53 pm

As for the DPOY discussions, I looked at some player tracking data and calculated a bit for Green and Kawhi.

I used all the categories with data available (Isolation, Ball Handler, Roll Man, Post-Up, Spot-Up, Hand-Off, Off-Screen), looked at the percentile and calculated their overall percentile ranking. I weighted the several percentiles by the frequency a certain play-type is being executed by the player. Apparently, 94.4% of Kawhi's and 74.5% of Green's defensive plays are covered by the player tracking data. I don't know what the other plays are and where to find them, as the FREQ% could only be calculated by SportsVU if they have the full data available and hide it/published it somewhere else. It doesn't add up to 100%, especially for Centers, so I assume help defense / some sort of rim protection must be the missing piece? Maybe - and hopefully - one of you guys knows more about it and can correct and/or enlighten me.

Be that as it may, I believe Kawhi's and Green's defensive possessions are sufficiently covered to gain some nice insight from them.

Spoiler:
Kawhi

Code: Select all

Play - FREQ% - Percentile
Iso - 8.1  -  86.8
BH - 32.3 -  90.5
RM - 4.1  -  95.1
PU - 4.3  -  71.0
SU - 25.9 -  73.0
HO - 7.6  -  86.1
OS - 12.1 -  24.2

Weighted calculation: 7159.32/94.4 = 75.84

Green

Code: Select all

Play - FREQ% - Percentile
Iso - 15.7 - 84.5
BH - 6.9  - 27.1
RM - 4.3  - 85.3
PU - 14.3 - 88.4
SU - 26.3 - 69.2
HO - 3.6  - 59.3
OS - 3.4  - 97.2

Weighted calculation = 5508.47/74.5 = 73.94

Note: the closer to 100 the number below 'Percentile' is, the better the player is compared to the rest of the players in the league


Kawhi's overall percentile: 75.84
Green's overall percentile: 73.94


Quick Notes:

- Green and Leonard are both clearly elite on defense by the player tracking data and fairly close as overall defenders

- Green defends by far the most isolations (175 possessions; 2nd in the league has 135 possessions) but opponents don't have much success in going at him. As a side note: Curry defends the 5th most isolations in the league (Percentile: 83.2) and Klay the 10th most (Percentile: 75.0) which shows us that the Warriors are probably doing a great job of isolating opponents and defending these plays. Frequency-wise, however, Curry and Thompson aren't significantly ahead of the field which means they must be involved in more defensive possessions than the average player even taking playing time into account - although it probably also reflects the pace of their games to some extent.

- Kawhi doesn't have to defend many isolations and you can see why: he defends them extremely well. Defending the ball handler is the most frequent defensive possession and he does an outstanding job at defending him. Only players with > 100 possessions ahead of Leonard in this regard: Iggy, Evan Turner, LeBron and Trey Burke (what??). On the other hand, he ranks very low on off-screen defensive possessions for some reason.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#77 » by lorak » Fri Apr 1, 2016 8:30 pm

tredigs wrote:
lorak wrote:Lets look at most detailed defensive stats available:

[code]
KP KAT TYPE
0.83 0.92 spotup
0.78 0.88 iso
1.18 no plays ballhandler
0.85 1.00 rollman
1.06 0.88 postup

Do you have a link to the # of plays here?


http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/?PT=player&OD=offensive



Towns having a 10 point higher O rating + massively better efficiency while carrying a larger load in a broken offensive system creates enough of a chasm between the two for this not to be a serious debate to me.


Numbers posted by The-Power above (TSA) suggest, that they carry the same offensive load per 100 poss or similar per minutes played. Knicks also have broken offensive system and no one close in playmaking ability to Rubio.

Also, Towns ORTG is 108.3, Porzingis 106.5, so not 10 difference, but much smaller and considering that NYK are worse that difference in reality is even smaller.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#78 » by lorak » Fri Apr 1, 2016 8:33 pm

The-Power wrote:As for the DPOY discussions, I looked at some player tracking data and calculated a bit for Green and Kawhi.

I used all the categories with data available (Isolation, Ball Handler, Roll Man, Post-Up, Spot-Up, Hand-Off, Off-Screen),


That are not all categories available, just the ones from Synergy, but there is more (and better as collected automatically, not by humans like in Synergy case) from SportVU.
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#79 » by The-Power » Fri Apr 1, 2016 8:49 pm

lorak wrote:
The-Power wrote:As for the DPOY discussions, I looked at some player tracking data and calculated a bit for Green and Kawhi.

I used all the categories with data available (Isolation, Ball Handler, Roll Man, Post-Up, Spot-Up, Hand-Off, Off-Screen),


That are not all categories available, just the ones from Synergy, but there is more (and better as collected automatically, not by humans like in Synergy case) from SportVU.

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RSCD3_
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Re: '15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread 

Post#80 » by RSCD3_ » Fri Apr 1, 2016 9:33 pm

So for those High on draymond such as DRZA and Spaceman, how does everyone feel about Draymond's offense compared to Kawhi's.

Draymond has the advantage as a playmaker and can still punish the defense with stright line drives/post ups/or 3's at a decent rate when they take him too lightly, while kawhi scores more efficiently thanks to a very diverse array or weapons with less turnovers while being the number one option for the spurs.

I give Kawhi, an advantage on offense that I believe is larger than any possible defensive advantages Draymond might have. I consider Kawhi in the same class defensively as Green though and he's balanced his O/D very well
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