Official Miami Heat 2016 Offseason Thread : Free Agency/Trades (part VI) - Get in the Room

[HIF]

TJ is good enough to be a backup point. The days of needing a traditional point to create for everyone are long gone. A lineup of Goran, TJ, J Rich, Justise, Hassan has 4 ball handlers that can all play in and out of PnR, all of them are capable of collapsing the defense. I think you shouldn't try and put players in boxes.

As Stanley Johnson said during his pre draft interview: "I believe that in this league you are who you can guard."

That in my opinion is the perfect way to look at positions in the modern NBA. So when you ask the question, can TJ and J Rich play at the same time? I'd counter with, can they both guard opposing back courts? The answer to that is clearly yes.

While I don't necessarily disagree with this I feel the need to say this: There are a ton of combo guards in the league that can easily guard pointguards, but they can't run an offense to save their life. Stanley's statement only holds water if you have a Lebron or a Wade or some wing like that on your team.

I disagree, you'd be right if we were trying to make TJ or J Rich into a starting PG, but we aren't. Goran is the starting PG playing 33mpg so we need 15 minutes worth of backup play. Both TJ and J Rich are could enough to handle that especially because you can stagger them with another play maker like we've been doing wih J Rich.

I'm hoping that Dragic has 0 minutes, he gets outplayed by backups, trade him over the summer.

[HIF]

Question and it has to be a serious question the Heat need to answer. Can the Heat build a system and roster that will allow Whiteside, Bosh and Dragic to play on the court together and start.

I don't think so.

I was screaming out for Dragic to use Whiteside in the second half and I don't think he gave him 1 pass.

[HIF]

I don't know why you say that. Seems to work with Whiteside, Deng, & Dragic pretty well with Deng at PF. Bosh can do everything Deng is doing now, but he is a better shooter and knows how to defend the 4 better. At this point I think it's a good problem to have because none of us have heard about Bosh & the Heat's future plans.

well the key part of the the original post was the 3 of them on the court together starting. To really maximize those 3 talents Dragic would need to improve in the half court game and Hassan I believe would really need to develop his post game. It can't all be run and gun.

Dragic *can* play half court. He does _prefer_ to run and gun, but he can too play half court.

Can he?

He seems to panic when he gets defensive double team and dribbles the ball for losses often.

[HIF]

I'm sorry but I want to trade Dragic this off-season.

Well, you can ask. But i don't think Riley will agree.

We'll see. I think Riley will happily trade Goran for a better fit.

[Orin]

I'm hoping that Dragic has 0 minutes, he gets outplayed by backups, trade him over the summer.

The guys is posting PTS 17.2 RPG 4.5 AST 7.4 Post All-Star Break, but yeah, let's hope he plays 0 minutes. And let's trade him for scrubs.

I don't think so.
I was screaming out for Dragic to use Whiteside in the second half and I don't think he gave him 1 pass.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202355/tracking/passes/

[HIF]

I'm hoping that Dragic has 0 minutes, he gets outplayed by backups, trade him over the summer.

The guys is posting PTS 17.2 RPG 4.5 AST 7.4 Post All-Star Break, but yeah, let's hope he plays 0 minutes. And let's trade him for scrubs.

I don't think so.
I was screaming out for Dragic to use Whiteside in the second half and I don't think he gave him 1 pass.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202355/tracking/passes/

I love the stats boys.

He is a revolving door on defence and he's average once a defence is set. He's great when he can run down the court on his own - most of the time - he does however have days when he can't do even that. He is unable to set up the big man in the box and he panics late in games when he has the ball and the game's on the line.

Don't get me wrong, he's a nice guy and he's an average PG but we've had average pgs for years, he just happens to be better offensively than our others whilst being a lot worse defensively. Sadly he's overpaid for what he brings us. we can do better. Collison who has never been a real starter anywhere is actually a better player. Goran is a collison lite.

[KingDavid]

I'm hoping that Dragic has 0 minutes, he gets outplayed by backups, trade him over the summer.

The guys is posting PTS 17.2 RPG 4.5 AST 7.4 Post All-Star Break, but yeah, let's hope he plays 0 minutes. And let's trade him for scrubs.

I don't think so.
I was screaming out for Dragic to use Whiteside in the second half and I don't think he gave him 1 pass.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202355/tracking/passes/

I don't think that is the proper stat. It looks like it tracks which players Hassan passed to instead of vice versa. There's even 3pt fga too, and I'm sure Hassan has not attempted a single 3 this season.

[KingDavid]

I'm sorry but I want to trade Dragic this off-season.

Well, you can ask. But i don't think Riley will agree.

We'll see. I think Riley will happily trade Goran for a better fit.

I don't think Riley would be so quick to trade someone that he sacrificed two first rounders for.

Dragic was able to take advantage of the market and thus received a larger contract for a player of his skill. But the cap is going up. It won't look so bad going forward.

[Orin]

I'm hoping that Dragic has 0 minutes, he gets outplayed by backups, trade him over the summer.

The guys is posting PTS 17.2 RPG 4.5 AST 7.4 Post All-Star Break, but yeah, let's hope he plays 0 minutes. And let's trade him for scrubs.

I don't think so.
I was screaming out for Dragic to use Whiteside in the second half and I don't think he gave him 1 pass.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202355/tracking/passes/

I love the stats boys.

He is a revolving door on defence and he's average once a defence is set. He's great when he can run down the court on his own - most of the time - he does however have days when he can't do even that. He is unable to set up the big man in the box and he panics late in games when he has the ball and the game's on the line.

Don't get me wrong, he's a nice guy and he's an average PG but we've had average pgs for years, he just happens to be better offensively than our others whilst being a lot worse defensively. Sadly he's overpaid for what he brings us. we can do better. Collison who has never been a real starter anywhere is actually a better player. Goran is a collison lite.

Are you seriously comparing Goran Dragic to Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole ?

Dragic is our best fast break player, and we've been wanting to play fast for a long time. Remember when we were dead last in pace and spamming Iso last year ? Remember when he went down on January and we looked horrible ?

Dragic was horrible at the start of the season, and I agree that he was often outplayed by TJ. But he's been great in 2016, especially post ASB.

I'm not even getting on the +/- stats where Dragic leads the team by far, on the fact that most of our 3 man line-ups have Goran in them, that he has the best AST% rate on the team (followed closely by Wade) etc.

Is he worth the Max and two first rounder ? Probably not, but for Riley yes. And it doesn't change the good impact Goran has on the team, and the great chemistry he has developped with his teammates.

I'm hoping that Dragic has 0 minutes, he gets outplayed by backups, trade him over the summer.

The guys is posting PTS 17.2 RPG 4.5 AST 7.4 Post All-Star Break, but yeah, let's hope he plays 0 minutes. And let's trade him for scrubs.

I don't think so.
I was screaming out for Dragic to use Whiteside in the second half and I don't think he gave him 1 pass.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202355/tracking/passes/

I don't think that is the proper stat. It looks like it tracks which players Hassan passed to instead of vice versa. There's even 3pt fga too, and I'm sure Hassan has not attempted a single 3 this season.

It's the second stat, "Passes Received " where Goran leads the team. Scroll down the page. Now, I'm not saying Dragic is the player who set Hassan the best, because it's clearly Wade, and Joe has been amazing feeding Hassan too. But to act like Dragic is ignoring Hassan on offense is just wrong, especially those last months.

[KingDavid]

Thanks Orin! I feel stupid for not scrolling down. My phone doesn't have much of a scrolling bar.

Here's the same stat post allstar break: http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202355/tracking/passes/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&SeasonSegment=Post%20All-Star

[KingDavid]

The goran to Hassan pass frequency is low for a pg to big man.

Here's CP3 to Jordan for comparison: http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201599/tracking/passes/

But I mean, Dragic isn't cp3. The amount he's paid is high, or not really his pay, but what we lost + his pay vs. production is probably what has HIF ticked off. But he seems like an average pg in the halfcourt offense. But when we run, he looks like Lebron lmao

[gom]

The guys is posting PTS 17.2 RPG 4.5 AST 7.4 Post All-Star Break, but yeah, let's hope he plays 0 minutes. And let's trade him for scrubs.



http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202355/tracking/passes/

I love the stats boys.

He is a revolving door on defence and he's average once a defence is set. He's great when he can run down the court on his own - most of the time - he does however have days when he can't do even that. He is unable to set up the big man in the box and he panics late in games when he has the ball and the game's on the line.

Don't get me wrong, he's a nice guy and he's an average PG but we've had average pgs for years, he just happens to be better offensively than our others whilst being a lot worse defensively. Sadly he's overpaid for what he brings us. we can do better. Collison who has never been a real starter anywhere is actually a better player. Goran is a collison lite.

Are you seriously comparing Goran Dragic to Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole ?

Dragic is our best fast break player, and we've been wanting to play fast for a long time. Remember when we were dead last in pace and spamming Iso last year ? Remember when he went down on January and we looked horrible ?

Dragic was horrible at the start of the season, and I agree that he was often outplayed by TJ. But he's been great in 2016, especially post ASB.

I'm not even getting on the +/- stats where Dragic leads the team by far, on the fact that most of our 3 man line-ups have Goran in them, that he has the best AST% rate on the team (followed closely by Wade) etc.

Is he worth the Max and two first rounder ? Probably not, but for Riley yes. And it doesn't change the good impact Goran has on the team, and the great chemistry he has developped with his teammates.

The guys is posting PTS 17.2 RPG 4.5 AST 7.4 Post All-Star Break, but yeah, let's hope he plays 0 minutes. And let's trade him for scrubs.



http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202355/tracking/passes/

I don't think that is the proper stat. It looks like it tracks which players Hassan passed to instead of vice versa. There's even 3pt fga too, and I'm sure Hassan has not attempted a single 3 this season.

It's the second stat, "Passes Received " where Goran leads the team. Scroll down the page. Now, I'm not saying Dragic is the player who set Hassan the best, because it's clearly Wade, and Joe has been amazing feeding Hassan too. But to act like Dragic is ignoring Hassan on offense is just wrong, especially those last months.

I also want to make the point that we didn't sign Dragic for the max. He did take less to sign for us.

Next year's salary of $15,891,725 is quite less than $17,638,063, which would be the value of the 2nd year of a 2nd year of a max contract signed with the salary cap of 70,000,000 (2014-5). His discount is $10M over 5 years and, as KingDavid suggests, will look even smaller going forward with the higher cap. For whatever reason you don't like Dragic, HIF, you shouldn't include his salary, which is very fair. He could have received more in Los Angeles or New York and our two picks would be just as gone.

Also, our goal should be to make the picks we give to Phoenix just as valuable as the one we'll give the 76ers this year.

I think there is a legitimate complaint about the number of his turnovers the last few games. He does have to step up his game, especially as we draw near the postseason. You can say the same about the rest of the team too.

If you want to take a positive from the last few games, Hassan's passing has looked very solid. He would have considerably more assists if the receiving player converted.

[HIF]

He's average on O for a PG, and below average on D. How much of an upgrade on rio is he?

2 first round picks and a barrow load of money worth?

I hope he proves me wrong.

[gom]

He's average on O for a PG, and below average on D. How much of an upgrade on rio is he?

2 first round picks and a barrow load of money worth?

I hope he proves me wrong.

Those of you who are trashing Dragic:

1. We saw how the team played without a good point guard in the 5 game stretch from OKC through Toronto. We were *TERRIBLE*.
2. Mario Chalmers lost the starting PG role to Norris Cole, one of the worst players in the league. Chalmers, nevertheless, is a decent backup and proved that at Memphis this year, but we should never have to rely on a PG who is not NBA starting caliber.
3. Under Dragic's leadership, Miami has played excellent offense since the All Star Game. No, he's not perfect. Sometimes he needs to make a better effort on defense. The team, however, has improved drastically from the beginning of the year.
4. We are doing this without Chris Bosh, our 2nd best player.
5. The barrowload of money is about what a backup guard like Mario Chalmers might make next year. I suspect Chalmers would get about 12 if he weren't injured. Mike Conley will likely get between $18M and $25,876,000 which would be his max. It doesn't matter if you don't think he's worth it. Some team will.
6. 2 first round picks is a steep cost only if the picks are lottery picks. If they are mid-20s picks, then you can argue that 2nd round picks have more value (for a number of reasons I'll skip now because it's a complicated explanation.) The pick we are give the 76ers this year will be poor. In the range 21-25, you will rarely find players that are difference makers for your club.

http://www.82games.com/barzilai1.htm

http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

6% chance for a star
22% chance for a solid starter
26% chance for a role player
36% chance for a deep bench player
8% chance for complete bust
2% chance for player who does play in NBA

They compare unfavorably with #14: 25% (star), 20% (solid), 25% (role), 10% (deep), 20% (bust), 0% (dnp)
They compare very unfavorably with #5: 60% (star), 15% (solid), 10% (role), 15% (deep), 0% (bust), 0% (dnp)

Ok, these numbers are arbitrary and yes you can find Jimmy Butler at 30 or Isiah Thomas at 60. The point, though, is that compared to players in the lottery, your pick in the high 20s isn't worth much. The goal is to make your pick not very valuable. Is Goran worth Shabazz Napier + PJ Hairston? I think so.

To make those pick terrible values and your trade smart, you must win, and thus you need a good team that performs well. For Miami that almost always means getting good free agents, and Goran helps there too.

I think it would be a better use of your time to either find facts that make your argument (rather than your gut feeling which seems almost completely biased) or, perhaps, cheer along with the rest of us that hope he succeeds.

Cheers.

[HIF]

Maybe I'm being too hard on Dragic, fair enough.

Of course your "stats" are telling us we're better off without Bosh, my "gut" says we're not.

[gom]

Maybe I'm being too hard on Dragic, fair enough.

Of course your "stats" are telling us we're better off without Bosh, my "gut" says we're not.

No. There isn't enough data to really determine what are all the causes of our improvement. My gut says that we can put Bosh in Deng's place at PF and be even better than we are now, but I have a worse feeling that Bosh may not even be back. As I've often said, Bosh on this team with Richardson & Winslow playing better and Joe Johnson stretching the court would be an experiment I'd love to see. My "gut" feeling is that we can be devastating for any opponent.

I share your frustration with our team's inconsistency. I really do. Our apathy in the Lakers game pissed me off (though frankly I was more upset with our loss to Charlotte).

In these questions I have to trust Pat Riley. If he pulls the plug on Spo, Dragic, Wade, whoever... I'm sure he'll do it after weighing every option. Let's see what happens! I started the year hoping to make the postseason. Now I'll only be happy by getting to the second round. Tomorrow? Maybe the finals! LOL

Oh, sorry, one more thing... I know Collison had a good game against us, but I've watched a TON of Kings games and Collison is very error prone, especially in high pressure situations. He looks like a good guy to run the team, but he doesn't have the mental toughness required to win. Goran may not have his shot and gives up the ball too often, but Collison gives up the ball at the wrong time. Really, I can't emphasize enough the terrible losses the Kings have had because of his unsteady hand. Rondo is a different story. Rondo has ice water in his veins. If your argument were to replace Goran with Rondo, I'd be onboard, but he is a crappy shooter and he's not a team player. Plus there's bad blood between him and Wade and Bosh and Haslem, etc.

[HIF]

Maybe I'm being too hard on Dragic, fair enough.

Of course your "stats" are telling us we're better off without Bosh, my "gut" says we're not.

No. There isn't enough data to really determine what are all the causes of our improvement. My gut says that we can put Bosh in Deng's place at PF and be even better than we are now, but I have a worse feeling that Bosh may not even be back. As I've often said, Bosh on this team with Richardson & Winslow playing better and Joe Johnson stretching the court would be an experiment I'd love to see. My "gut" feeling is that we can be devastating for any opponent.

I share your frustration with our team's inconsistency. I really do. Our apathy in the Lakers game pissed me off (though frankly I was more upset with our loss to Charlotte).

In these questions I have to trust Pat Riley. If he pulls the plug on Spo, Dragic, Wade, whoever... I'm sure he'll do it after weighing every option. Let's see what happens! I started the year hoping to make the postseason. Now I'll only be happy by getting to the second round. Tomorrow? Maybe the finals! LOL

Yeah, I don't want to sound like a hater as I'm not really, just so disappointed with his play and now fear him coming on the court.

[3ballbomber]

The guys is posting PTS 17.2 RPG 4.5 AST 7.4 Post All-Star Break, but yeah, let's hope he plays 0 minutes. And let's trade him for scrubs.



http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202355/tracking/passes/

I love the stats boys.

He is a revolving door on defence and he's average once a defence is set. He's great when he can run down the court on his own - most of the time - he does however have days when he can't do even that. He is unable to set up the big man in the box and he panics late in games when he has the ball and the game's on the line.

Don't get me wrong, he's a nice guy and he's an average PG but we've had average pgs for years, he just happens to be better offensively than our others whilst being a lot worse defensively. Sadly he's overpaid for what he brings us. we can do better. Collison who has never been a real starter anywhere is actually a better player. Goran is a collison lite.

Are you seriously comparing Goran Dragic to Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole ?

Dragic is our best fast break player, and we've been wanting to play fast for a long time. Remember when we were dead last in pace and spamming Iso last year ? Remember when he went down on January and we looked horrible ?

Dragic was horrible at the start of the season, and I agree that he was often outplayed by TJ. But he's been great in 2016, especially post ASB.

I'm not even getting on the +/- stats where Dragic leads the team by far, on the fact that most of our 3 man line-ups have Goran in them, that he has the best AST% rate on the team (followed closely by Wade) etc.

Is he worth the Max and two first rounder ? Probably not, but for Riley yes. And it doesn't change the good impact Goran has on the team, and the great chemistry he has developped with his teammates.

The guys is posting PTS 17.2 RPG 4.5 AST 7.4 Post All-Star Break, but yeah, let's hope he plays 0 minutes. And let's trade him for scrubs.



http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202355/tracking/passes/

I don't think that is the proper stat. It looks like it tracks which players Hassan passed to instead of vice versa. There's even 3pt fga too, and I'm sure Hassan has not attempted a single 3 this season.

It's the second stat, "Passes Received " where Goran leads the team. Scroll down the page. Now, I'm not saying Dragic is the player who set Hassan the best, because it's clearly Wade, and Joe has been amazing feeding Hassan too. But to act like Dragic is ignoring Hassan on offense is just wrong, especially those last months.

f*ckin PREACH mother f*cker

[Hallstar]

I'm hoping that Dragic has 0 minutes, he gets outplayed by backups, trade him over the summer.

The guys is posting PTS 17.2 RPG 4.5 AST 7.4 Post All-Star Break, but yeah, let's hope he plays 0 minutes. And let's trade him for scrubs.

I don't think so.
I was screaming out for Dragic to use Whiteside in the second half and I don't think he gave him 1 pass.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202355/tracking/passes/

If all we could get is scrubs doesn't that show where you value him also

[HialeahHeatFan]

Trade them all!!!