Kyrie Irving would rather play somewhere else

[ATLHawksfan21]

Just like we would have beat the Wizards in 5 if wall had played every game, we would have beaten the Cavs if Love and Irving played. Their biggest weakness was defensively at the 1 and 4. Our best offensive players were at the 1-4. Thier injuries closed one ofnthose holes and while Teague still had his way with Delly, he made life harder than Kyrie would have. I can believe you have watched a 1-4 pick and roll against the Cavs and think we wouldn't have been better off with their better offensive team playing versus the elite defensive squad they were able to put out there.

It's nice to see that others get it. Unfortunately, I don't think we could have overcome our top 3 wings all being out or severely limited.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Fancy handles don't mean a thing when you fail to convert.

Now let's take a look at this statement as well.

First, let's set a baseline of how some of the other young star PGs convert once they are able to get in the lane:

• Jeff Teague shoots 51% from inside the restricted area. Half of these shot attempts within 5 feet of the rim result in a driving layup which he hits 52% of the time
  
• Russ Westbrook shoots 56% from inside the restricted area. RW scores in a variety of ways when he attacks off the dribble, but the highest number these shot attempts within 5 feet of the rim result in a driving layup which he hits 59% of the timeHere
  
• Steph Curry shoots 65% from inside the restricted area. Sixty percent of these buckets he creates on his own.Steph scores in a variety of waysHere
  
• Kyrie Irving shoots 56% from inside the restricted area. Eighty percent of these buckets he creates on his own. Almost half of these shot attempts within 5 feet of the rim result in a driving layup which he hits 59% of the timeHere A whopping 90% of those driving layups are buckets he creates on his own.

In regards to Kyrie's lack of finishing, I'm talking about a single game. Go replay Saturday's game and tell me I'm not right.

[Jamaaliver]

If Dennis doesn't play like a below average D-leaguer on Saturday, Jeff's record vs Kyrie is 10-2. Like I said, Teague has consistently owned Kyrie throughout their professional careers.

All these excuses for Kyrie. You call him one of the best young guards of the past decade and then don't hold him accountable for his teams consistently losing a ton of games with him as the lead man.

Those numbers also back what I am saying. Kyrie's numbers only look good due to high usage. Teague is shooting 5% higher than him and his asst/to ratio is 2.8 compared to Kyrie's 1.75.

Once again, Kyrie is proven to be nothing but high usage and flashy plays while playing no defense and failing to run a team oriented offense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnL_0vxKjbQ

Watch as Kyrie wants no part of defending Teague on the final play and chooses to leave his big on an island at the top of the key. You can't be a leader if you aren't willing to step up in moments like these and you can't be elite if you aren't a leader.

I'm not sure KI scoring 22 ppg against Teague is exactly being owned.

Regarding their overall head-to-head record...it's difficult to compare. Teague was already a starting PG on a veteran, All-Star laden playoff team when Kyrie was drafted by the single worst team in the league.

The 2012 Cavs team was one of the worst collections of talent in recent history. And the 2013 team wasn't much better.

But, hey. Time will tell. Maybe we'll even get to see the two players go head to head in the playoffs. I think it's fair to say that neither guy can guard the other.

[Jamaaliver]

In regards to Kyrie's lack of finishing, I'm talking about a single game. Go replay Saturday's game and tell me I'm not right.

It's difficult to put much stock in a single game, cause...it's a single game. Consider, we have losses to Orlando, Milwaukee, New York, Sacramento, Phoenix and Washington. Those individual performances don't mean much in the greater scheme

Hell, that's why they determine a champion on a SERIES of playoff games. Making a definitive statement on a player's overall talent level based on a single game seems...short-sighted.

[King Ken]

LOL kyrie is playing for Lebron , hes not happy. Hes 1000 times the talent that Teague is, its not even close.

Hes also coming off MAJOR KNEE SURGERY.

I knew you were a Jeff Teague hater

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Hater?

Saying Kyrie Irving has more talent than Teague makes me a hater? nah that makes you a HOMER.

Statistically (and coming from personal experience) there is a "LOST YEAR" when you have major knee surgery. Theres hundreds of cases of poor shooting, bad play coming off knee surgery, they call it the LOST YEAR.

Kyrie has his faults, but lets ignore some of the context (playing for a different coach every year, injuries, Lebron playing Alpha Male while KI is an Alpha).

Teague is a good player, hes not in the same league as KI. no one thinks that.

That's not what you said kiddo. You said 1000 times more talented. That's bull!

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[ATLHawksfan21]

If Dennis doesn't play like a below average D-leaguer on Saturday, Jeff's record vs Kyrie is 10-2. Like I said, Teague has consistently owned Kyrie throughout their professional careers.

All these excuses for Kyrie. You call him one of the best young guards of the past decade and then don't hold him accountable for his teams consistently losing a ton of games with him as the lead man.

Those numbers also back what I am saying. Kyrie's numbers only look good due to high usage. Teague is shooting 5% higher than him and his asst/to ratio is 2.8 compared to Kyrie's 1.75.

Once again, Kyrie is proven to be nothing but high usage and flashy plays while playing no defense and failing to run a team oriented offense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnL_0vxKjbQ

Watch as Kyrie wants no part of defending Teague on the final play and chooses to leave his big on an island at the top of the key. You can't be a leader if you aren't willing to step up in moments like these and you can't be elite if you aren't a leader.

I'm not sure KI scoring 22 ppg against Teague is exactly being owned.

Regarding their overall head-to-head record...it's difficult to compare. Teague was already a starting PG on a veteran, All-Star laden playoff team when Kyrie was drafted by the single worst team in the league.

The 2012 Cavs team was one of the worst collections of talent in recent history. And the 2013 team wasn't much better.

But, hey. Time will tell. Maybe we'll even get to see the two players go head to head in the playoffs. I think it's fair to say that neither guy can guard the other.

1 million excuses won't change the fact that Kyrie Irving doesn't play winning basketball. I agree that neither can guard the other but Teague can lead his team far better than Kyrie can and that is why Teague has owned Kyrie head to head.

All flash, no substance. That is what Kyrie has been and what he will continue to be.

[Jamaaliver]

All flash, no substance. That is what Kyrie has been and what he will continue to be.

Guess I'll add this to the predictions list...



Sent from my iPad using RealGM Forums

[PandaKidd]

I knew you were a Jeff Teague hater

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Hater?

Saying Kyrie Irving has more talent than Teague makes me a hater? nah that makes you a HOMER.

Statistically (and coming from personal experience) there is a "LOST YEAR" when you have major knee surgery. Theres hundreds of cases of poor shooting, bad play coming off knee surgery, they call it the LOST YEAR.

Kyrie has his faults, but lets ignore some of the context (playing for a different coach every year, injuries, Lebron playing Alpha Male while KI is an Alpha).

Teague is a good player, hes not in the same league as KI. no one thinks that.

That's not what you said kiddo. You said 1000 times more talented. That's bull!

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

I bet I'm older than you, kiddo.

And yes that's a factual statement. KI is a vastly more talented player than Jeff teague. It's not even debatable.

This is just laughable.

[PandaKidd]

LOL at NO SUBSTANCE. Yeah he's only a 20ppg elite player NBA all star MVP .

Irving has his flaws, no one is ignoring that. His ceiling is way above Teague though. Don't underestimate the complete knee surgery he had in the off season and that held him out until Mid December. He's still a 20ppg player.

I think he and love are vastly misused in Cleveland and a lot of that is on lebron and ownership.

He's also been on teams coached by Byron Scott and Mike Brown?

[ATLHawksfan21]

LOL at NO SUBSTANCE. Yeah he's only a 20ppg elite player NBA all star MVP .

Irving has his flaws, no one is ignoring that. His ceiling is way above Teague though. Don't underestimate the complete knee surgery he had in the off season and that held him out until Mid December. He's still a 20ppg player.

I think he and love are vastly misused in Cleveland and a lot of that is on lebron and ownership.

He's also been on teams coached by Byron Scott and Mike Brown?

It's ironic that you use him winning the MVP in a game that is 100% about flash and not substance to prove that he is not all flash.

Why are you so willing to build excuses for Kyrie when you won't do the same for any Hawks player? I have never seen you give Horford a pass because of his chest injuries yet you go out of your way to excuse Kyrie's when Kyrie is far more injury prone than Horford. Outside of the pectoral injuries, Horford has been consistently healthy throughout his college and pro career while Kyrie has been far from it. Kyrie's inability to stay healthy should be considered a huge negative instead of being excused. After all, he missed almost his entire year at Duke, 15 games his rookie year, 23 his second, 11 his third, was injured when it mattered last year and 28 games this year.

I could care less if he is a 20ppg player if he is scoring the majority of those 20 in ISO situations, which keep his teammates out of rhythm, and he is giving up that same 20 on defense.

[PandaKidd]

Hey guys, where did that SYSTEM get us last year? It got beat /SWEPT by LEBRON by HIMSELF. YOu know why? BECAUSE TALENT WINS IN THE PLAYOFFS.

LEbron was good enough to get 2 WINS vs GSW!!! BY HIMSELF!!!

Its so insane to sit here and see people defend lower tier players because they play "in the system" better. I remember the same people commenting on how Pero Antic was the X FACTOR .......like really?

Its also insane that people just look at KI on that one team and think he cant change or evolve or play better.

Its just this simple, KYRIE IRVING IS BETTER THAN JEFF TEAGUE. That is NOT a hot take. That is absolutely 10000% true. No one believes otherwise.

[PandaKidd]

LOL at NO SUBSTANCE. Yeah he's only a 20ppg elite player NBA all star MVP .

Irving has his flaws, no one is ignoring that. His ceiling is way above Teague though. Don't underestimate the complete knee surgery he had in the off season and that held him out until Mid December. He's still a 20ppg player.

I think he and love are vastly misused in Cleveland and a lot of that is on lebron and ownership.

He's also been on teams coached by Byron Scott and Mike Brown?

It's ironic that you use him winning the MVP in a game that is 100% about flash and not substance to prove that he is not all flash.

Why are you so willing to build excuses for Kyrie when you won't do the same for any Hawks player? I have never seen you give Horford a pass because of his chest injuries yet you go out of your way to excuse Kyrie's when Kyrie is far more injury prone than Horford. Outside of the pectoral injuries, Horford has been consistently healthy throughout his college and pro career while Kyrie has been far from it. Kyrie's inability to stay healthy should be considered a huge negative instead of being excused. After all, he missed almost his entire year at Duke, 15 games his rookie year, 23 his second, 11 his third, was injured when it mattered last year and 28 games this year.

I could care less if he is a 20ppg player if he is scoring the majority of those 20 in ISO situations, which keep his teammates out of rhythm, and he is giving up that same 20 on defense.

give Horford a pass? Horfords never been considered a top 5 player at his position. KI has. Last year he was injured in the playoffs which extended into this year you cant hold it against him twice because he got injured in the ECF

I dont hold anythign against Horford, he is what he is , a soft, PF masquerading as a PF that doesnt come through in the really big games. Hes a NICE player. Hes a Complimentary player. Hes a good piece. Hes not THE GUY or a cornerstone.

The team has ALWAYS had this 1 problem, LACK OF ELITE TALENT. That is still true today. I just laugh when you look at Hawks fans just completely ignore that fact and keep thinking that theyll get over the hump.

I mean people were saying NO to Blake Griffin for Al Horford because HE DOESNT FIT THE SYSTEM. LOL

Guys last year and im not sure if you were one of them were saying NO to Westbrook because he DOESNT FIT THE SYSTEM.

[PandaKidd]

People dont want derozan, "OHHHH he shoots too much hes not good in the system"

People dont want LMA "hes pretty much Paul Millsap" which is funny in its own right.

People dont want Dwight Howard because he "doesnt fit the system".

At some point you have to trust the coaches will develop and coach elite talent the same way they coach and develop mediocre or tier 2 talent. Theyve made Jeff Teague and Millsap and Demarre Carrol and Baze into viable starters and all stars. Why couldnt they do that with VASTLY superior players>

Nuts, just nuts

[ATLHawksfan21]

LOL at NO SUBSTANCE. Yeah he's only a 20ppg elite player NBA all star MVP .

Irving has his flaws, no one is ignoring that. His ceiling is way above Teague though. Don't underestimate the complete knee surgery he had in the off season and that held him out until Mid December. He's still a 20ppg player.

I think he and love are vastly misused in Cleveland and a lot of that is on lebron and ownership.

He's also been on teams coached by Byron Scott and Mike Brown?

It's ironic that you use him winning the MVP in a game that is 100% about flash and not substance to prove that he is not all flash.

Why are you so willing to build excuses for Kyrie when you won't do the same for any Hawks player? I have never seen you give Horford a pass because of his chest injuries yet you go out of your way to excuse Kyrie's when Kyrie is far more injury prone than Horford. Outside of the pectoral injuries, Horford has been consistently healthy throughout his college and pro career while Kyrie has been far from it. Kyrie's inability to stay healthy should be considered a huge negative instead of being excused. After all, he missed almost his entire year at Duke, 15 games his rookie year, 23 his second, 11 his third, was injured when it mattered last year and 28 games this year.

I could care less if he is a 20ppg player if he is scoring the majority of those 20 in ISO situations, which keep his teammates out of rhythm, and he is giving up that same 20 on defense.

give Horford a pass? Horfords never been considered a top 5 player at his position. KI has. Last year he was injured in the playoffs which extended into this year you cant hold it against him twice because he got injured in the ECF

I dont hold anythign against Horford, he is what he is , a soft, PF masquerading as a PF that doesnt come through in the really big games. Hes a NICE player. Hes a Complimentary player. Hes a good piece. Hes not THE GUY or a cornerstone.

The team has ALWAYS had this 1 problem, LACK OF ELITE TALENT. That is still true today. I just laugh when you look at Hawks fans just completely ignore that fact and keep thinking that theyll get over the hump.

I mean people were saying NO to Blake Griffin for Al Horford because HE DOESNT FIT THE SYSTEM. LOL

Guys last year and im not sure if you were one of them were saying NO to Westbrook because he DOESNT FIT THE SYSTEM.

What are you even rambling about. My point was clear and should have been easy to understand.

We will only see you hold Horford's injuries against him and you will never give him the benefit of the doubt due to his injuries. Meanwhile, you will look for every opportunity to give Kyrie a pass for his injuries when he is far more injury prone than Horford.

Why is that?

Once again you try to rely on subjective titles that mean nothing in terms of winning with top 5 or playing well in an all-star game. People can consider Kyrie a top 5 PG but they are badly mistaken. Top 5 PG's win more than 30 games in a weak East. Kyrie is nowhere close to being on the level of Curry, Paul and Westbrook. Look at what Lillard is doing with a rebuilding team in the West. Kyrie isn't even a PG. He is just forced to play PG because he is too small to defend SG's. He is an undersized SG who plays no defense and struggles to initiate offense for his teammates.


In my opinion. Griffin and Irving's style of play do not lead to championships if they are relied on to be the top scorer. I would give up an insane amount of our assets to land Westbrook. I have been hoping we land a superstar every off-season, the difference is I want a player whose dominance translates to wins instead of just good stats.

[PandaKidd]

You have like a 1 year memory.

2 years ago Curry was a GOOD PG, he wasnt other wordly like he proved last year and this year.

If you gave GMs 1 option to choose KI or JT, no one chooses JT unless youre the GM of said team

you call it empty and flashy, I call it 20ppg with players like Love and Lebron on his team, I call it being an All Star despite being on a team that had no other talent.

You cry about no defense when Jeff Teague isnt exactly DEFENDER OF THE YEAR. cmon.

You can not like his GAME which is totally street baller, but you have to also see that hes never had a real coach, hes never been properly developed. We have seen Teagues ceiling, you havent seen KI yet.

How many games has Teague had like this vs ELITE talent?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS5TuwG-QSE

[PandaKidd]

And for clarification Im not sure where you get this "Horford" bashing from. Hold his injuries against him? You mean the 2 most UNCOMMON injuries in basketball and it happened to him TWICE in a span of 3 years? Yeah, i mean, guards tear ACLs, they have knee/ankle problems.

I cant recall ever reading a big man tearing Pectorals once let alone TWICE. I think its because he used improper weight lifting techniques. Im pretty sure even he said that.

Horford has been a rock of consistency outside of that, but , Al Horford is AT BEST a 15/7 guy. 15/7 sound like a cornerstone ELITE player at PF/C? Didnt think so.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Al Horford's play results in more wins for his team than Kyrie's does. That's really all that matters. 1,000 excuses for Kyrie won't change that until he figures out how to become a better leader and how to play defense (if he's even capable of doing so.) Add in the fact that he is extremely injury prone and he is nowhere close to being a franchise player.

Teague may not be the best defender but you won't see him run away from defending his man on the last play like Kyrie did when Teague hit the gamewinner. How can you be a franchise player when you aren't willing to lead by example?

When will you start acknowledging some of these severe weaknesses that I have pointed out?

There is a 5 page thread on the gen board right now which suggests that the Cavs would be better off with Delly starting. There were mixed feelings when it was Irving and Waiters in Cleveland and some fans wanted Irving out and to keep Waiters when Waiters is a complete mess. These things wouldn't be happening if Kyrie were as good as you wished he was.

[PandaKidd]

Al Horford's play results in more wins for his team than Kyrie's does. That's really all that matters. 1,000 excuses for Kyrie won't change that until he figures out how to become a better leader and how to play defense (if he's even capable of doing so.) Add in the fact that he is extremely injury prone and he is nowhere close to being a franchise player.

Has Horford been to the Finals?

thanks.

Teague may not be the best defender but you won't see him run away from defending his man on the last play like Kyrie did when Teague hit the gamewinner. How can you be a franchise player when you aren't willing to lead by example?

Gamewinner?

CLEVELAND 110-HAWKS 108.

When will you start acknowledging some of these severe weaknesses that I have pointed out?

hes bad at Defense, so was THJ? Defense can be taught. I dont think that being bad at defense automatically disqualifies you from being an elite player. especially PGs.

There is a 5 page thread on the gen board right now which suggests that the Cavs would be better off with Delly starting. There were mixed feelings when it was Irving and Waiters in Cleveland and some fans wanted Irving out and to keep Waiters when Waiters is a complete mess. These things wouldn't be happening if Kyrie were as good as you wished he was.

And people are idiots? Newsflash? Delly? Really?

[PandaKidd]

Yeah FOlks, Jeff Teague, the Franchise LEADER of this HAWKS TEAM!

Talk about giving people passes, Horford has massive weaknesses, but your his #1 cheerleader.

I also think a lot of people are looking at a 50 game sample size from KI who missed the ENTIRE offseason workout program and came into the season following major knee surgery. Its an absolute PROVEN FACT that it takes 12 months to FULLY RECOVER from knee surgery. Every player sees a decline in production the next year. It takes time to get back the fast twitch muscle fibers and confidence in your knee.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Yeah FOlks, Jeff Teague, the Franchise LEADER of this HAWKS TEAM!

Talk about giving people passes, Horford has massive weaknesses, but your his #1 cheerleader.

I also think a lot of people are looking at a 50 game sample size from KI who missed the ENTIRE offseason workout program and came into the season following major knee surgery. Its an absolute PROVEN FACT that it takes 12 months to FULLY RECOVER from knee surgery. Every player sees a decline in production the next year. It takes time to get back the fast twitch muscle fibers and confidence in your knee.

You should give up on assuming since every assumption you have made for me has been wrong. How am I Horford's #1 cheerleader when I was just suggesting for us to trade him for Howard before the deadline. Good thing I'm not the GM because it looks like that would have been a horrible trade.

I also am not judging Kyrie entirely on this year. I'm sure Jamaal can dig up our discussions on Kyrie from the past couple of years and I have held the same opinion since the beginning.