"WCIHAoTDP?" - 2016 Draft Thread P.2

[Edug27]

He's a very minor upgrade over Sully.

That's not so far-fetched. Sully is the superior rebounder, defender, and outside shooter after all. Passer as well.

It's crazy homer talk. Comments like those are the ones you look back on years from now and feel ashamed.

[Edug27]

He's a very minor upgrade over Sully.

Maybe a slight exaggeration, but You can show me all the numbers you want. Sully would most likely do the same playing for that Philly side. And if not he is at least a better passer and defender/rebounder.

Sully would average 17 and 7 as a rookie on Philly?!

[truth18]

These Sully/Okafor comparisons are nonsense.

[Parasite]

That's not so far-fetched. Sully is the superior rebounder, defender, and outside shooter after all. Passer as well.

It's crazy homer talk. Comments like those are the ones you look back on years from now and feel ashamed.

So then it is your contention that Okafor is the better rebounder, passer, and defender? He obviously has a higher ceiling but I don't think that has been in question.

[London2Boston]

Maybe a slight exaggeration, but You can show me all the numbers you want. Sully would most likely do the same playing for that Philly side. And if not he is at least a better passer and defender/rebounder.

Sully would average 17 and 7 as a rookie on Philly?!

I didn't say as a rookie. I'm saying at this moment. Not much use if Okafor comes good in 3 or 4 years if we are trading a pick for him. That pick could end up being better regardless. You trade it for someone that is going to help you win right now and Okafor is a long way from doing that in my honest opinion.

[ConstableGeneva]

IF the Celtics want to contend within the next few years, they have to evaluate if the pieces they acquire with their premium assets help get them closer to being a contender, hopefully sooner than later. Getting an efficient scorer who is average to downright bad in other critical areas like rebounding and defense is like plugging one hole while creating a new one. (Celtics are already near the bottom of the NBA in defensive rebounding and they're already starting a defensively limited PG in IT. They also don't have enough shooters to surround Okafor with.) Buy low on Okafor, sure. Even OKC has a Kanter coming off their bench. And Kanter is already elite from midrange and in rebounding on top of being a very efficient scorer in the paint.

[galipeautim]

There is an economic advantage to coming out next year even if their draft stock doesn't improve. The huge increase in the cap occurs right after this draft, meaning next years' rookie class will have a much higher salary scale. It also makes the Celtics picks this year more valuable because the contracts are far more favorable than they will be.

Actually I don't believe this is true. The rookie salary scale is independent of the salary cap in the NBA and is already determined through the length of the current CBA. The contracts will go up but RealGM has a page that runs through the '19-'20 season. No matter what rookie scale contracts are going to be a huge advantage until the next CBA.

That's what he is thinking of, there is a CBA out clause between 16 and 17. Right idea just reasoning was off a bit.

I'm operating under the assumption that league owners get greedy and force CBA negotiations in 2017 because sports league owners always get greedy. Safe bet in my opinion and definitely in the back of every NBA GMs head this offseason. Current NBA rookie salaries are the only way to build a complete team as they are fundamentally low compared to free agents. That said, if the CBA is not re-negotiated than the Nets picks become more valuable in 17' and 18' when the average league contract will jump exorbitantly. Win-win for the Celtics!!

[galipeautim]

IF the Celtics want to contend within the next few years, they have to evaluate if the pieces they acquire with their premium assets help get them closer to being a contender, hopefully sooner than later. Getting an efficient scorer who is average to downright bad in other critical areas like rebounding and defense is like plugging one hole while creating a new one. (Celtics are already near the bottom of the NBA in defensive rebounding and they're already starting a defensively limited PG in IT. They also don't have enough shooters to surround Okafor with.) Buy low on Okafor, sure. Even OKC has a Kanter coming off their bench. And Kanter is already elite from midrange and in rebounding on top of being a very efficient scorer in the paint.

Is the argument that Kanter and Okafor are comparable because they can both shoot and rebound, but can't defend? If that's a basis for comparison then James Harden's value should be evaluated by his most similar comparables of Eric Gordon and Monta Ellis. Okafor is an immense talent. The caliber that a player like Kanter could never dream of. It's not even remotely fair to compare the two players.

[No-Man]

He does not pass well, he has zero range on his shot, and he can't tell you what letter is missing in this word "_efense".

He's a worse-rebounding Al Jefferson. That's not a guy who will help teams win.

This is absolutely no true.
Okafor has range, can create facing up, has an elite ballhandling and agility that Jefferson never ever dreamed off having, and can pass, he was one of the best passing freshmen bigs I ever seed with Duke, judging him for his season playing with a group of dleaguers against NBA talent its highly unfair.
He is a poor rebounder and he struggles defensively when it comes to help defense, but he has good advanced metrics in terms of near the basket D, for example.

He does have the mobility, he needs to improve intensity and conditioning to be a factor defensively outside of the post, he is as agile as Marc Gasol, and as big, even if he is a couple of inches shorter, so he could have the same impact if he works on it.

The Al-Jeff comp is just laughable.

[No-Man]

We need to stop with Okafor. I mean, have we not seen enough average athletes at the big positions that can't rebound, defend or pass for toffee? He's a very minor upgrade over Sully.

Okafor is not as athletic as Cousins, but calling him an average athlete for his size is just a joke, have you seen his fluidity, body control and the way he moves? athleticism is not only about verticality.

[No-Man]

The Celtics have the perfect combination of players to add Okafor to their mix, the issue is that they dont really have that much to offer unless Philly is okay with getting another lotto pick, Nets pick and some veteran help, and maybe young perimeter prospects, Rozier, Young, Hunter, etc...

Dunno, I guess if they really want to move Okafor and that offer is the best out there it could be possible.

If I am Philly I'd likely try to build around Jah, with Ingram in the draft hopefully, and moving Noel, keeping Embiid just in case he evolves.
But it sounds like they want to build a running team, and if that's the case keeping Noel will make more sense.

[Edug27]

That's not so far-fetched. Sully is the superior rebounder, defender, and outside shooter after all. Passer as well.

It's crazy homer talk. Comments like those are the ones you look back on years from now and feel ashamed.

So then it is your contention that Okafor is the better rebounder, passer, and defender? He obviously has a higher ceiling but I don't think that has been in question.

He will be the much better overall player.

[ConstableGeneva]

IF the Celtics want to contend within the next few years, they have to evaluate if the pieces they acquire with their premium assets help get them closer to being a contender, hopefully sooner than later. Getting an efficient scorer who is average to downright bad in other critical areas like rebounding and defense is like plugging one hole while creating a new one. (Celtics are already near the bottom of the NBA in defensive rebounding and they're already starting a defensively limited PG in IT. They also don't have enough shooters to surround Okafor with.) Buy low on Okafor, sure. Even OKC has a Kanter coming off their bench. And Kanter is already elite from midrange and in rebounding on top of being a very efficient scorer in the paint.

Is the argument that Kanter and Okafor are comparable because they can both shoot and rebound, but can't defend? If that's a basis for comparison then James Harden's value should be evaluated by his most similar comparables of Eric Gordon and Monta Ellis. Okafor is an immense talent. The caliber that a player like Kanter could never dream of. It's not even remotely fair to compare the two players.

The point was you can't have too many defensive liabilities on your best lineup if you plan on challenging the elite teams. Can you have Okafor as your starting/closing center and beat the likes of the Spurs and Warriors in the next few years? I don't see it. (I'm betting Cavs won't win playing both Irving and Love significant time together vs. the Warriors.)

If Danny can't find better use for the Brooklyn pick (via trade for a star or if Okafor is projected to be better than what's left on the board), then go ahead use it on Jah. Acquire talent and let Brad figure it out later. Talent is talent I guess and this team lacks it especially up front. But I just don't think he can contribute to winning enough for the team to get to the next level. Sure, he was in a bad situation in his rookie year but his advanced numbers even on his own team is discouraging (7th among 76ers regulars in win shares per 48, 2nd worst on/off net rating on the Sixers). Okafor is also last in RPM among all centers.

[Kolkmania]

IF the Celtics want to contend within the next few years, they have to evaluate if the pieces they acquire with their premium assets help get them closer to being a contender, hopefully sooner than later. Getting an efficient scorer who is average to downright bad in other critical areas like rebounding and defense is like plugging one hole while creating a new one. (Celtics are already near the bottom of the NBA in defensive rebounding and they're already starting a defensively limited PG in IT. They also don't have enough shooters to surround Okafor with.) Buy low on Okafor, sure. Even OKC has a Kanter coming off their bench. And Kanter is already elite from midrange and in rebounding on top of being a very efficient scorer in the paint.

Is the argument that Kanter and Okafor are comparable because they can both shoot and rebound, but can't defend? If that's a basis for comparison then James Harden's value should be evaluated by his most similar comparables of Eric Gordon and Monta Ellis. Okafor is an immense talent. The caliber that a player like Kanter could never dream of. It's not even remotely fair to compare the two players.

The point was you can't have too many defensive liabilities on your best lineup if you plan on challenging the elite teams. Can you have Okafor as your starting/closing center and beat the likes of the Spurs and Warriors in the next few years? I don't see it. (I'm betting Cavs won't win playing both Irving and Love significant time together vs. the Warriors.)

If Danny can't find better use for the Brooklyn pick (via trade for a star or if Okafor is projected to be better than what's left on the
board), then go ahead use it on Jah. Acquire talent and let Brad figure it out later. Talent is talent I guess and this team lacks it especially up front. But I just don't think he can contribute to winning enough for the team to get to the next level. Sure, he was in a bad situation in his rookie year but his advanced numbers even on his own team is discouraging (7th among 76ers regulars in win shares per 48, 2nd worst on/off net rating on the Sixers). Okafor is also last in RPM among all centers.

Okafor is a poor rebounder, but I wonder if there is some metric that shows the %ORB allowed when he's on the court vs on the bench. He usually boxes out his man, but seems disinterested to get after the ball. Noel, Grant, Covington usually grabs it, as long as the opponent doesn't get it right?

His rotations are way off as well, but once again the context is important. Brett Brown wants to play shooters around Okafor like Canaan and Stauskas. Besides the fact that the complete offense stalls when he has the ball due to lack of movement of the ball (results in poor +/-), those players are just pillars on the defensive end. I really think he would be acceptable on defense when he has a legit team around him like the Celtics, his 1-on-1 defense is already decent and %OppFG at the rim is very low when he is there to contest.

[galipeautim]

IF the Celtics want to contend within the next few years, they have to evaluate if the pieces they acquire with their premium assets help get them closer to being a contender, hopefully sooner than later. Getting an efficient scorer who is average to downright bad in other critical areas like rebounding and defense is like plugging one hole while creating a new one. (Celtics are already near the bottom of the NBA in defensive rebounding and they're already starting a defensively limited PG in IT. They also don't have enough shooters to surround Okafor with.) Buy low on Okafor, sure. Even OKC has a Kanter coming off their bench. And Kanter is already elite from midrange and in rebounding on top of being a very efficient scorer in the paint.

Is the argument that Kanter and Okafor are comparable because they can both shoot and rebound, but can't defend? If that's a basis for comparison then James Harden's value should be evaluated by his most similar comparables of Eric Gordon and Monta Ellis. Okafor is an immense talent. The caliber that a player like Kanter could never dream of. It's not even remotely fair to compare the two players.

The point was you can't have too many defensive liabilities on your best lineup if you plan on challenging the elite teams. Can you have Okafor as your starting/closing center and beat the likes of the Spurs and Warriors in the next few years? I don't see it. (I'm betting Cavs won't win playing both Irving and Love significant time together vs. the Warriors.)

If Danny can't find better use for the Brooklyn pick (via trade for a star or if Okafor is projected to be better than what's left on the
board), then go ahead use it on Jah. Acquire talent and let Brad figure it out later. Talent is talent I guess and this team lacks it especially up front. But I just don't think he can contribute to winning enough for the team to get to the next level. Sure, he was in a bad situation in his rookie year but his advanced numbers even on his own team is discouraging (7th among 76ers regulars in win shares per 48, 2nd worst on/off net rating on the Sixers). Okafor is also last in RPM among all centers.

The only prospects in this draft with a comparable level of talent are Simmons, Ingram and possibly Bender. So I agree with you that the Celtics shouldn't do the trade if those guys are on the board. Nevertheless, I don't think rookies should be judged by their first year (unless they have a Bennett, Thabeet type year). Nothing from this past year tells me that he's not capable of living up to his pick. Advanced stats don't apply to the Sixers as they are incapable of teaching the game of basketball. Put this guy in the right system, give him a couple years, and he's a perennial all star. You don't need a rim protector when you have Marcus Smart and Avery Bradley shutting down the drives. What you do need is an interior scorer, which is what we sorely lack.

[cl2117]

There is absolutely no reason that Okafor can't develop a reasonable to above average defensive skills. He's not limited physically, it's just about developing that part of his game. Same goes for his rebounding.

Brad Stevens is getting hyped like crazy, and I think it's deservedly so, but the way he's going to live up to that hype is by getting more out of guys like Okafor than other coaches/systems would. And the C's are uniquely positioned to do that. His offensive game would be a huge plus for a team that struggles to score at times. Our backcourt's superb defense should immediately help out Okafor, and Stevens just needs to teach him team defense and he'll be at worst average.

The Big Al/Monroe comparisons are fair, but that's the level he's at after his rookie season. He has plenty of room to develop. But even if he doesn't you've got your version of Monroe/Jefferson/Kanter on a rookie deal for 3 years, and that's worst case scenario. If he can develop beyond that then you're in business.

More importantly, and what I think a TON of people are missing here, is Okafor could be our next Al Jefferson. As in he can be an anchor piece in a MASSIVE trade that launches us into the legit contender status. I think we'd get a ton more traction shopping Okafor plus picks for a star than Smart or whomever we take at #3/4 this year (Hield/Bender etc.).

Bottom line is I think Okafor easily has more value than any guy we're getting outside of Simmons/Ingram and he will retain that value more easily than those guys. For a team with a wheeling and dealing GM like Ainge, that's important.

[galipeautim]

The only comparable between Okafor and Big Al is they both have crafty post moves. Once you get beyond that they are completely different players. Okafor will be a better defender than Big Al, but Al's soft hands made him a unique talent. I doubt Okafor matches his ability to catch the ball, but Okafor will be a better overall player.

I love cl2117's reasoning for an Okafor deal. Boston has so many assets, but it's really a collection of B assets unless the Brooklyn picks land in the top 3. Okafor is an A asset and could be packaged for another player down the line if we feel he is not a fit for this team. Personally, I think he fits perfectly for this team and would allow us to not overpay for Sully when we all know he will be completely out of shape once he gets his long term deal.

[Gomes3PC]

He does not pass well, he has zero range on his shot, and he can't tell you what letter is missing in this word "_efense".

He's a worse-rebounding Al Jefferson. That's not a guy who will help teams win.

This is absolutely no true.
Okafor has range, can create facing up, has an elite ballhandling and agility that Jefferson never ever dreamed off having, and can pass, he was one of the best passing freshmen bigs I ever seed with Duke, judging him for his season playing with a group of dleaguers against NBA talent its highly unfair.
He is a poor rebounder and he struggles defensively when it comes to help defense, but he has good advanced metrics in terms of near the basket D, for example.

He does have the mobility, he needs to improve intensity and conditioning to be a factor defensively outside of the post, he is as agile as Marc Gasol, and as big, even if he is a couple of inches shorter, so he could have the same impact if he works on it.

The Al-Jeff comp is just laughable.

Okafor shoots under 33% from outside 10 feet. He. Can't. Shoot.

Go watch what Al Jefferson was early in his career before injuries sapped him. He had the feet of a boxer and was a very quick leaper. And frankly Jefferson defended the rim better than Jahlil does.

Absolutely do not buy his vision. He is a black hole every time I see him and his assist rate is Whiteside-level bad, plus he turns it over at an alarming rate (though that I would suspect will decline as he matures).

Bad rebounding, no jumper, no defensive instincts. It's a bad combo. Guys with his post skillset are extremely hard to find, so I get the allure, but he's just not a good player and I don't like betting on guys who have poor defensive abilities to suddenly turn that around, and I pretty much never bet on a poor rebounder to improve that in the NBA.

[No-Man]

Okafor is not a typical plodding big man like Jefferson is, he is basically Carmelo Anthony if he was 6'11 and 260lbs
You can see how good his touch is, even facing up, he can absolutely shoot it, he has that potential 100%, he is anything but one dimensional offensively.

I've seen plenty of Jefferson, his jumper was not even close to Okafor's and neither was his mobility and body control, he rarely face-up, Okafor had to create his own offense from really far from the zone really often due to the 76ers lack of ballhandlres and creators.

Comparing him with Whiteside is ridiculous, Okafor is a guy that since 2nd-3rd excelled as a passer out of the post, judging him for one season with the 76ers, having to play without spacing, real shooters or playmakers and sharing the court often with other non-shooting bigs is just dumb.

[Gomes3PC]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on Okafor. I just don't think he's ever going to be a key piece to a real title contender unless he dramatically improves the holes in his game. Seems like you're confident he will - I just wouldn't buy it myself, given his immaturity and total unwillingness to work on his defense. He's a big man built for the 80s, not today.