"WCIHAoTDP?" - 2016 Draft Thread P.2

[BleedGreen1989]

The Okafor love astounds me.

The hate and Sully comparisons are way more mind blowing. If Danny had pulled a trade to draft him like rumored, or even at mid season like rumored, everyone would love him.

Yes and no but you simply don't win big with centers like him today.

Doesn't protect the rim, fairly average rebounder, exposed in the P&R, predominantly a post scorer, ect. Sure you can say he's young, but a lot of these things are physical limitations and style he's always played.

Al Jefferson, Greg Monroe, Nikola Vucevic (to some extent), ect all fall in this category.

[Edug27]

The Okafor love astounds me.

The hate and Sully comparisons are way more mind blowing. If Danny had pulled a trade to draft him like rumored, or even at mid season like rumored, everyone would love him.

Yes and no but you simply don't win big with centers like him today.

Doesn't protect the rim, fairly average rebounder, exposed in the P&R, predominantly a post scorer, ect. Sure you can say he's young, but a lot of these things are physical limitations and style he's always played.

Al Jefferson, Greg Monroe, Nikola Vucevic (to some extent), ect all fall in this category.

Al Horford is an average rebounder, doesn't protect the rim, and came into the league with scouts knocking his ability to hit a jump shot.

[2Mas]

Right because 18-year old 7-footers with skills, shooting ability, and physicality grow on trees.

You're basing this on heavily edited YouTube highlight tapes. There is enormous risk surrounding Bender.

Yea, totally agree with cha... It's opinions, I'd take Dunn over Bender, that's just me. Maybe I'm wrong. I think Dunn has superstar potential, nothing about Bender has impressed me.

You honestly think Dunn is going to be a "superstar"?

I think there's gonna be 2 studs in this draft. Ingram & Simmons. After that, I think there are gonna be a ton of good role players, but if we don't get pick 1 or 2, I'm really hoping we ship that out.

I know Okafor is a hot topic on here.. but imo he has a higher ceiling than all these other dudes. I think his immaturity is overblown & it'd be a quick fix with some real vets in the locker room.

Just don't think this draft is anything special. & the Lakers will prob keep their pick, so Philly might be desperate to cash in with the #4 or 5 if we get that. Which in turn, getting a 18-7 7ft 20 year old is a pretty solid return.

[2Mas]

The Okafor love astounds me.

The hate and Sully comparisons are way more mind blowing. If Danny had pulled a trade to draft him like rumored, or even at mid season like rumored, everyone would love him.

Yes and no but you simply don't win big with centers like him today.

Doesn't protect the rim, fairly average rebounder, exposed in the P&R, predominantly a post scorer, ect. Sure you can say he's young, but a lot of these things are physical limitations and style he's always played.

Al Jefferson, Greg Monroe, Nikola Vucevic (to some extent), ect all fall in this category.

Lol man you obviously haven't seen Okafor.

This whole " you dont win with bigs like that" argument is stupid.. you don't win with someone who's not names Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Wade, Garnett, Pierce, Bryant, Dirk, James, Curry. -- Sans Detroit 2004 & that's going back 25 years.

Lets stop acting like a playing style is the way to win. Nonsense. TALENT is the way to win.

[DarkAzcura]

The hate and Sully comparisons are way more mind blowing. If Danny had pulled a trade to draft him like rumored, or even at mid season like rumored, everyone would love him.

Yes and no but you simply don't win big with centers like him today.

Doesn't protect the rim, fairly average rebounder, exposed in the P&R, predominantly a post scorer, ect. Sure you can say he's young, but a lot of these things are physical limitations and style he's always played.

Al Jefferson, Greg Monroe, Nikola Vucevic (to some extent), ect all fall in this category.

Lol man you obviously haven't seen Okafor.

This whole " you dont win with bigs like that" argument is stupid.. you don't win with someone who's not names Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Wade, Garnett, Pierce, Bryant, Dirk, James, Curry. -- Sans Detroit 2004 & that's going back 25 years.

Lets stop acting like a playing style is the way to win. Nonsense. TALENT is the way to win.

I do think playing style matters to an extent. All of those players wouldn't be nearly as successful if they didn't have playing styles that fit the NBA at the time. It could be argued that those players MADE the playing style, though, I suppose.

Honestly, with Okafor, the three things I'm worried about is defense, rebounding, and shooting range. If you are confident that Okafor can improve significantly in two of those three areas, then no doubt, take him. I have some trouble seeing him improving significantly in two of those three areas. If he can't improve in two of those three areas, I don't know if he can be a top 2 guy on a contender. I can see his jump shot improving a lot over the next few years. His defense could improve, I guess, but it's tough to predict something like that. With rebounding, you'd like to think someone that long could definitely improve, but he struggled on the boards in college, and now, he's been Olynyk territory mediocre on the boards. Likewise, it's hard for me to predict significant improvement in that area even if his measurables show he should. It's risky, but I guess less risky than any talent beyond the top 2 in this draft. I like Bender's competitive edge, but I don't know enough about his play style to definitely say he is worth the risk over Okafor.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that talent is hugely important, but if you can't develop certain intangibles, that talent doesn't mean nearly as much. Are we confident a guy like Okafor will develop those intangibles?

[SmartWentCrazy]

I absolutely take Ingram/Simmons over Okafor. I absolutely take Okafor over anyone else.

[2Mas]

I do think playing style matters to an extent. All of those players wouldn't be nearly as successful if they didn't have playing styles that fit the NBA at the time. It could be argued that those players MADE the playing style, though, I suppose.

Honestly, with Okafor, the three things I'm worried about is defense, rebounding, and shooting range. If you are confident that Okafor can improve significantly in two of those three areas, then no doubt, take him. I have some trouble seeing him improving significantly in two of those three areas. If he can't improve in two of those three areas, I don't know if he can be a top 2 guy on a contender. I can see his jump shot improving a lot over the next few years. His defense could improve, I guess, but it's tough to predict something like that. With rebounding, you'd like to think someone that long could definitely improve, but he struggled on the boards in college, and now, he's been Olynyk territory mediocre on the boards. Likewise, it's hard for me to predict significant improvement in that area even if his measurables show he should. It's risky, but I guess less risky than any talent beyond the top 2 in this draft. I like Bender's competitive edge, but I don't know enough about his play style to definitely say he is worth the risk over Okafor.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that talent is hugely important, but if you can't develop certain intangibles, that talent doesn't mean nearly as much. Are we confident a guy like Okafor will develop those intangibles?

I am also worried about like 1.5 of those.

Rebounding imo is his biggest weakness. I agree - It's not good. We would no doubt have to balance with some better rebounders at other positions.

The thing that gets me mad is that he's not an old school post up big. He likes the ball high post & he has crazy footwork & a good handle. He's more like Boogie honestly. he can make the mid range. Not a 3 pt shooter, but a couple ft in he's fine & will get better obviously. & he always wants to the ball like the elbow area, so it's not like he's clogging the lane with his hand up.

& The defense thing is the .5 issue. On the P&R he's brutal & I don't see how he gets better? That's my thing. But not in the Pick & Roll, he's fine defender. people are so dramatic. He's top 30+ in blocks as a 20yo rook who "dont play d". No one is going through him. Dude's almost 300lbs. He will learn how to be a better defender in time, but he has a massive wingspan & can protect the rim. He's no DJordan, or Whiteside, but the whole rim protecting thing is overblown. & having Cannan, Stauskas, Covington not on the court MIGHT help him as well. Replace them with Smart-Bradley-Crowder & see what his defensive stats are.

[mbsnmisc]

Maybe a slight exaggeration, but You can show me all the numbers you want. Sully would most likely do the same playing for that Philly side. And if not he is at least a better passer and defender/rebounder.

Okafor was an overwhelmingly more efficient scorer than Sully on that dumpster fire of a team

Sully TS%: .478

Okafor TS%: .536

But there is a lot of garbage points mixed into that because they aren't competitive. Sully manhandles him one on one from my recollection.

I am not on Team Okafor. I watched quite a bit of the first quarter of 76'er games this year, (7pm tip). Okafor is a supreme low post player, not for a teenager, for an NBA center. That being said, I saw quit in him when he played a physical center. He does not like banging against guys that are big and strong. In our first game against the 76'ers he was killing that AWESOME Zeller/Lee combo. I thought he was going to step right into the Association and score 25 a night. Brad adjusted, put Sully in and Okafor quit fighting for the block and started floating 12 - 15 feet from the basket. That set off alarms. I made sure to watch him against other centers. When he can bully a lighter player he takes full advantage. When he went up against guys like Sully, or the Lopez boys he was not as effective.

I know he is young. I know he is not fully developed as an athlete. He will get stronger. He might get in better shape. Some guys are tough. Smart is tough. Crowder is tough. IT is really **** tough. I don't think Okafor has that hardness to his personality. I gleaned all of this from my computer screen, so take it for what it is worth. His coaches and trainers know best. I think something is rotten in the state of Pennsylvania, (see what I did there ?), if they are willing to trade a guy, (who also tore his meniscus) after 60 games. I know it is Philly and Hinkie is every ones whipping boy, but it is odd to give up on the number 3 pick in his rookie season.

I say buyer beware.

[mbsnmisc]

"Why Can't I Hold All of These Draft Picks?" has been condensed in the thread title to a very handy acronym.

Thought there might be some lingering confusion between this and the pick watch thread.

PS - why are acronyms so popular now?

IDK

[Fidel Sarcasmo]

"Why Can't I Hold All of These Draft Picks?" has been condensed in the thread title to a very handy acronym.

Thought there might be some lingering confusion between this and the pick watch thread.

PS - why are acronyms so popular now?

IDK

Lol

[165bows]

"Why Can't I Hold All of These Draft Picks?" has been condensed in the thread title to a very handy acronym.

Thought there might be some lingering confusion between this and the pick watch thread.

PS - why are acronyms so popular now?

IDK

Lol

GOAT

[165bows]

[Tweet]https://twitter.com/sn_ncaab/status/719563177718104064[/Tweet]

Kevin O'Connor's first draft ranking posted today. Interesting variations on the theme. Sabonis at 10, Poeltl at 12, Valentine at 6. A few seniors in the back end of the first like Hart, Brogdon and AJ Hammons.

[165bows]

Ed Isaacson ‏@nbadraftblog
2016 Portsmouth Invite list out- http://bit.ly/1Wo0VYL

Importance has diminished, but still some fun match-ups in glorified pick-up games

Shawn Long, Dorian Finney-Smith, Jameel McKay and Egidijus Mockevicius are a few names that jump out for me.

[Kalela]

I believe Hart is junior but he is an awesome player. Really good defender that can also drive to the basketball and shoot at a decent level.

[lon3lytoaster]

[Tweet]https://twitter.com/sn_ncaab/status/719563177718104064[/Tweet]

Kevin O'Connor's first draft ranking posted today. Interesting variations on the theme. Sabonis at 10, Poeltl at 12, Valentine at 6. A few seniors in the back end of the first like Hart, Brogdon and AJ Hammons.

Sabonis or Valentine (or Luwawu) are the only guys I want with that Dallas pick. Frustrating God Barea will carry them to the post season.

[brackdan70]

trade back with the Kings if we end up 3 or 4. Jordan Mickey and Rozier along with the pick for WCS and their pick (Luwawu). Am a just bitter about tonights loss or does that seem like a decent move.

[lon3lytoaster]

After last night, i really hope we get lucky in the lottery and have the position to get Ingram. I need something to feel good about after these loses. We need that scoring so bad. He can be our really lanky Paul Pierce.

[165bows]

[Tweet]https://twitter.com/sn_ncaab/status/719563177718104064[/Tweet]

Kevin O'Connor's first draft ranking posted today. Interesting variations on the theme. Sabonis at 10, Poeltl at 12, Valentine at 6. A few seniors in the back end of the first like Hart, Brogdon and AJ Hammons.

Sabonis or Valentine (or Luwawu) are the only guys I want with that Dallas pick. Frustrating God Barea will carry them to the post season.

Yeah those guys are the appealing ones to me as well. I could be talked into Rabb, and then there is my totally unfounded interest in OG Anunoby.

Not draft time if I haven't picked a guy I barely know anything about to be the next great surprise lol.

[No-Man]

Anunoby is coming back to Indiana.

[24istheLAW]

Lol man you obviously haven't seen Okafor.

This whole " you dont win with bigs like that" argument is stupid.. you don't win with someone who's not names Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Wade, Garnett, Pierce, Bryant, Dirk, James, Curry. -- Sans Detroit 2004 & that's going back 25 years.

Lets stop acting like a playing style is the way to win. Nonsense. TALENT is the way to win.

No one is saying that talent isn't the way to win. People are just challenging the notion that Okafor has as much talent as you've ascribed to him.

Re: rim protection, effective team defense isn't just about rim protection, you need guys who are laterally mobile and who can contain drives, close out shooters, hedge a pick and roll on the perimeter and recover... Al Horford isn't a big shotblocking menace but he does all those things effectively because he's light on his feet and mobile, and combines that athleticism with awareness and bball IQ. That's how Duncan has been a DPOY player for years without looking like Deandre Jordan. People aren't digging on Okafor defensively because he's not a rim protector - its the totality of being a non-rim protector, lacking the agility and athletic traits to add value away from the basket, AND the lack of effort. After all there's a reason the 76ers have been better without him than with him this season.

People aren't saying you can't win with a low post scorer. Obviously buckets are good, and not-buckets are bad. Its just that the tradeoff you make when Okafor is on the floor, at this stage in his career (low post scoring for everything else) is not a good one.
Look, if we traded for him I'd be happy. I'm all for getting younger because I'm not convinced we can attract Durant this offseason. But it's 2016 and IMO we should know better than to, 1) overstate the impact of, and 2) understate the difficulty of building around, "double double" players like Big Al, Brook Lopez, David Lee... What Okafor IS, is a rich man's Sully with more projection left.