Drummond in the post

[flow]

In the hack-a-dre thread, someone (I think Arp590) pointed out that hack-a-dre has been effective for some because while the Pistons' average PPP is 1.06, Drummond's free throw PPP is .72. The downside, as was pointed out, is that opposing teams get their guys in foul trouble and put Detroit in the bonus quicker.

This led me to ponder another point about Drummond. The Pistons have to stop posting him up and feeding him in the low post. Andre's post-up PPP's are virtually as bad as his free throw PPP's - .73. And there's no silver lining of accumulating fouls and getting in the bonus. Teams don't foul Dre in the post because Dre doesn't make shots in the post. And he doesn't pass out of the post, either. Of the 402 times he received an entry pass in the post, he shot it 335 times (83.3%). That's staggering. There are 2 players who received more than 402 entry passes, and both attempted fewer than 335 shots -

Brook Lopez, 448 for 324 attempts (72.3%)
Aldridge, 427 for 334 attempts (78.2%)

And there are 6 players who received within 30 fewer than 402 entry passes, and none attempted close to 335 shots -

Monroe, 399 for 306 attempts (76.6%)
Randolph, 391 for 309 attempts (79.0%)
Dirk, 379 for 306 attempts (80.7%)
Marc Gasol, 376 for 276 attempts (73.4%)
Melo, 369 for 277 attempts (75.0%)
Cousins, 363 for 235 attempts (64.7%)

So, at 335 shots, Andre took more shots from the post than any player in the league, while passing it out of the post less than anyone. What makes this inexcusable is that he made only 133 of those shots, for 39.7%. To put into perspective how bad this is, there were only 5 other players who attempted even 300 shots from the post. Their make percentages were as follows:
50.6%
48.5%
46.7%
45.4%
43.7%

Only 10 more players attempted 200+ shots from the post. Their make percentages were:

49.8%
49.4%
48.4%
46.9%
46.8%
46.2%
43.1%
43.0%
41.3%
40.5%

And when missed free throws are factored into the equation, Drummond's scoring frequency (scoring at least 1 point) when fed in the post is only 38%.

The bottom line here is that Drummond is poor in the post. And the fact that he's been fed in the post more than all but 2 players in the league, and has been allowed to attempt more shots in the post than any player in the league, is mind-boggling, comical, and criminal. It hurts the team when he's fed in the post. Van Gundy needs to stop posting him up.

[Lionlifer]

For the Pistons to ever be real contenders, we need Drummond to be a near automatic 20-10. The only way we are going to get him there is to feed him, and have him use his post move(s) during games.

This is a simple investment in the future, and one that needs to be done.

By not feeding him he won't improve, I'm all for giving the big homie the green light.

[joedumars1]

For the Pistons to ever be real contenders, we need Drummond to be a near automatic 20-10. The only way we are going to get him there is to feed him, and have him use his post move(s) during games.

This is a simple investment in the future, and one that needs to be done.

By not feeding him he won't improve, I'm all for giving the big homie the green light.

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding... we have a winner! We have to keep feeding and trying to develope this 22 YEAR old KID!

[Pharaoh]

Do they count every entry pass the same way? Cause if they do it's BS!

LMA might have got 427 entry passes but how many of them were given to him where he's actually expected to shoot? Same for BroLo.

The vast majority of entry passes to Dre ARE for him to score!

All the numbers in the world don't mean jack if there's no context

[flow]

The off-season is for working on stuff and developing weaknesses. The season & playoffs are for trying to win games. My post was focused on pointing out a weakness affecting this season and trying to win a game or 2 against Cleveland in this series.

And simple in-game repetition clearly does not (necessarily) equal improvement, as evidenced both by the stuff talked about herein and by the number of free throws Andre's shot this the season. He led the league in attempting both and improved in neither through the course of the season.

[flow]

Do they count every entry pass the same way? Cause if they do it's BS!

LMA might have got 427 entry passes but how many of them were given to him where he's actually expected to shoot? Same for BroLo.

The vast majority of entry passes to Dre ARE for him to score!

All the numbers in the world don't mean jack if there's no context

Thank you for illuminating the problem.

[MrBigShot]

I don't buy for a single second that Dre took more shots in the post than any other player in the league and there is no stat that would convince me otherwise. Dre averaged 13 FGA per game this season and roughly 60% of those were from 0-3 feet from the basket. Most of those should be drop offs, alley oops, finishes off of a pick & roll. 36% of his shot attempts were from 3-10 feet from the basket, which is where you'd expect him to be during a post up. Wherever you got this stat from, it is pretty clear that the definition of "post" is not the same as what is typically considered "the post" in NBA lingo.

Post up = Get the ball off of an entry pass with your back to the basket and try to score. The post is necessarily always one particular area on the court.

Anyway, the fact that such a high percentage of his attempts end up being a shot attempt is a testament to the fact that he's not very good at reading defensive rotations and making passes out of the post. As Lionlifer pointed out getting him post touches is important for his development. He can work on it in the off season, but there is never a substitute for actual in-game experience. That doesn't mean we have to run the offense through him in the post like he's Cousins or something, but getting him post touches to keep him engaged and get him more comfortable scoring in isolation is by no means a bad thing.

[flow]

I don't buy for a single second that Dre took more shots in the post than any other player in the league and there is no stat that would convince me otherwise. Dre averaged 13 FGA per game this season and roughly 60% of those were from 0-3 feet from the basket. Most of those should be drop offs, alley oops, finishes off of a pick & roll. 36% of his shot attempts were from 3-10 feet from the basket, which is where you'd expect him to be during a post up. Wherever you got this stat from, it is pretty clear that the definition of "post" is not the same as what is typically considered "the post" in NBA lingo.

Post up = Get the ball off of an entry pass with your back to the basket and try to score. The post is necessarily always one particular area on the court.

Anyway, the fact that such a high percentage of his attempts end up being a shot attempt is a testament to the fact that he's not very good at reading defensive rotations and making passes out of the post. As Lionlifer pointed out getting him post touches is important for his development. He can work on it in the off season, but there is never a substitute for actual in-game experience. That doesn't mean we have to run the offense through him in the post like he's Cousins or something, but getting him post touches to keep him engaged and get him more comfortable scoring in isolation is by no means a bad thing.

You can disbelieve it all you want, but it's an official league stat. They're aware of the definition.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/post-up/?sort=FGA&dir=1

[Phenomenonsense]

Meh. In terms of PPP is puts him within .05 points per possession of someone like Anthony Davis (.78) who is from the same draft class and a much better offensive player.

[Pharaoh]

Way to disregard the point of my post!

[whitehops]

drummond is still improving in the post, i think that's a pretty obvious statement.


last season he shot 192 hook shots and made them at a 42.7% clip. at the beginning of the year he was atrocious and it seemed that he was off-balance on most of his attempts. this year he took 301 hook shots and hit them at a 45.2% rate. he's been iso'd up in the post a lot more this year and he's done a lot better in those scenarios compared to last season.


so, saying dre is a good/great post player is a bit of a stretch but he definitely has potential to improve more. he'll continue to get better at his hooks and setting them up. he has shown flashes of being able to pass out of the post too, he's had some impressive cross-court bullet passes that led to wide open threes.


i think it's important we keep feeding dre similar to how we have been is to make the defense respect it, as well as helping him to continue to improve.

[Todd3]

Andre's post-up PPP's are virtually as bad as his free throw PPP's - .73. And there's no silver lining of accumulating fouls and getting in the bonus. Teams don't foul Dre in the post because Dre doesn't make shots in the post.

Yes there is a silver lining and it's called getting your 22 yr old franchise Center experience in the post so that he develops a post game.

Using ppp isn't really accurate anyways because other players are padding their ppp with FTs and he can't right now. Not because they don't foul him, but because he can't seek contact like they can, knowing he can't make FTs. So instead he has to try to finesse it, which then makes his conversion rate lower because he can't get deep post position, as they will foul him if he gets too close.

It all adds up to making him an inefficient post player right now, but it's mostly the FT issue preventing him from being better imo. So if he ever gets good at FTs (perhaps trying underhand), then this experience gaining comfort in the post now will pay off double later, and that is why it's worth it.

If not, then we'll need to get another post option at PF later (Sabonis maybe), and then Drummond can be used as strictly a dominant pick & roll Center instead. But at only 22 with potential to be an unstoppable post scorer as well if he can just get his FTs in order, it would be foolish to not try to develop that part of his game too.

[bstein14]

I'm sure Stan knows how bad Dre's post up game is. The thing is, you've got to keep the kid engaged in the game and you've got to work on growing and improving that post up game. Dre has won us some games with his rebounding this year but he's also lost us some games with his post up game. But leading the league in offensive rebounds and points off offensive rebounds helps make up for the poor completion % form the line and in the post. He's got to get to work on his post game and his FT hard this offseason though. Remember, he is still just 22 years old his best years are going to be when he's 25-30 most likely so we're still a few years away from him prime 5 or 6 seasons.