Political Roundtable Part IX

[nate33]

Paul Krugman on Trump's trade protectionism:

I come here not to praise Trump — God no — and would be happy to see his political ambitions buried, with maximum ignominy. He would destroy American civil society; destroy our hopes of containing climate change; destroy U.S. influence by trying to bully everyone in sight. It’s very scary that there’s any chance that he might end up with his (long) finger on the button.

But too many anti-Trump critics seem to have settled on one critique that happens not to be right: the claim that a turn to protectionism would cause vast job losses. Sorry, that’s just not a claim justified by either theory or history.

Protectionism reduces world exports, but it also reduces world imports, so that the effect on overall demand is a wash; textbook economic models just don’t say what conventional wisdom is asserting here.

History doesn’t support this line of attack either. Protection in the 1930s was a result, not a cause, of the depression; the early postwar years, when tariffs were still high and exchange controls were pervasive, were marked by very full employment in many countries.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/04/09/the-donald-and-the-veg-o-matic/?smid=tw-nytimeskrugman&smtyp=cur

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Nate quoting Krugman.

Now I've seen everything.

[dckingsfan]

As usual, Krugman misses the point. Sigh.

Better Standard of Living
- it isn't just about having a job. Free trade countries have a much higher standard of living. And we are right there. The poorest in our country are rich compared to most countries. And we have access to great "stuff".

Competition
- Want to become France? How many innovative products do you see coming out of them? Just saying, free trade fosters innovation and competition. I know there are some in our country that are lazy and want to get off the treadmill - but that isn't a good thing. Our school system doesn't want competition - they are fat and lazy. That would be a microcosm of what we would get

Growth
- Those countries with the most open trade grew the fastest over the last 70 years. And it isn't even close.

Funding for Infrastructure
- Growth produces revenue, revenue funds infrastructure - oops - our entitlement programs are eating that up - ignore.

No Wars
- Trading partners are MUCH less likely to go to war with each other, of course then we can have full employment in the military.

Krugman is a dufus - he looks at the minutia without looking at the whole.

[cammac]

Fear is a powerful tool when brainwashing the sheep.

That's what I've been saying for a long time. Fear results in the diminution or even
outright elimination of rational thought. If you want someone to do the otherwise
unthinkable, make them afraid first.

Name me a single country that is 20% or more Muslim that has the type of liberties and equality under the law that we have in the West. If you can't name a single one, what makes you so smugly sure that my stance is based on "fear" rather than rational thought?

Obviously you have rarely traveled but both Malaysia 90% Muslim & Indonesia 95% (largest Muslim population in the world) are very tolerant to other religious groups.

Free trade is a double edged sword! Americans have grown to expect great pricing on commodities and the Walmarts of the world have sourced and provided these low cost products to the masses. Tarrifs are reinstated and the clothing industry returns to the Carolina's and the price of a garment triples yet the average worker in the mills of right to work States are paid minimum wages and can barely scrape buy. The consumers would be up in arms protesting for change. I am not saying that unfettered free trade is good but fair trade is important. Plus the USA doesn't always play by the rules in Free Trade with huge subsidies to business and Agriculture.

Bernie Saunders has been a blessing to America to bringing Socialism to the masses who have been indoctrinated that it is Communism. Yes he is wrong on many points that some of his programs can't be adequately funded but has moved the Democratic party to the left, In a past General Election on party ran a campagin on Corporate Welfare Bums and that is a tone the Democratic Oarty needs to embrase,

[nate33]

Obviously you have rarely traveled but both Malaysia 90% Muslim & Indonesia 95% (largest Muslim population in the world) are very tolerant to other religious groups.

Malaysian law currently provides for whipping and up to a 20-year prison sentence for homosexual acts involving either men or women.

Indonesia is indeed an exception. It is definitely the most moderate of the Muslim nations. However, it is a curious exception that probably has much to do with its geography. It's hard to maintain a strict, conservative ideology over 17,000 isolated islands. They practice a variant of Islam known as Islam Nusantara, which is a blend of Islam with principles of Hinduism and ancient Java religions.

It will be interesting to see how long it lasts. Recently, there have been more extreme Sharia Law types moving in and spreading their anti-freedom ways.

The country's Minister of Religious Affairs, Lukman Hakim Saifuddin admits that there is growing support for some elements of Sharia law - and says the government is preparing legislation to reflect this.

"We are now considering introducing a ban on drinking alcohol, gambling and prostitution. We will then put these proposals to the people and they will be made law if there is democratic agreement," he says.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35055487

[nate33]

Nate quoting Krugman.

Now I've seen everything.

Yeah, I'm no fan of Krugman. That post was mostly aimed at Zonker whom I gather likes Krugman yet opposes any sort of protectionism.

[cammac]

Obviously you have rarely traveled but both Malaysia 90% Muslim & Indonesia 95% (largest Muslim population in the world) are very tolerant to other religious groups.

Malaysian law currently provides for whipping and up to a 20-year prison sentence for homosexual acts involving either men or women.

Indonesia is indeed an exception. It is definitely the most moderate of the Muslim nations. However, it is a curious exception that probably has much to do with its geography. It's hard to maintain a strict, conservative ideology over 17,000 isolated islands. They practice a variant of Islam known as Islam Nusantara, which is a blend of Islam with principles of Hinduism and ancient Java religions.

It will be interesting to see how long it lasts. Recently, there have been more extreme Sharia Law types moving in and spreading their anti-freedom ways.

The country's Minister of Religious Affairs, Lukman Hakim Saifuddin admits that there is growing support for some elements of Sharia law - and says the government is preparing legislation to reflect this.

"We are now considering introducing a ban on drinking alcohol, gambling and prostitution. We will then put these proposals to the people and they will be made law if there is democratic agreement," he says.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35055487

I don't think USA has anything to brag about laws on Gay rights????
Yes that is draconian but Malaysia respects its Chinese & Indian minorities.

Plus in Indonesia I doubt the law passes.

[nate33]

Obviously you have rarely traveled but both Malaysia 90% Muslim & Indonesia 95% (largest Muslim population in the world) are very tolerant to other religious groups.

Malaysian law currently provides for whipping and up to a 20-year prison sentence for homosexual acts involving either men or women.

Indonesia is indeed an exception. It is definitely the most moderate of the Muslim nations. However, it is a curious exception that probably has much to do with its geography. It's hard to maintain a strict, conservative ideology over 17,000 isolated islands. They practice a variant of Islam known as Islam Nusantara, which is a blend of Islam with principles of Hinduism and ancient Java religions.

It will be interesting to see how long it lasts. Recently, there have been more extreme Sharia Law types moving in and spreading their anti-freedom ways.

The country's Minister of Religious Affairs, Lukman Hakim Saifuddin admits that there is growing support for some elements of Sharia law - and says the government is preparing legislation to reflect this.

"We are now considering introducing a ban on drinking alcohol, gambling and prostitution. We will then put these proposals to the people and they will be made law if there is democratic agreement," he says.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35055487

I don't think USA has anything to brag about laws on Gay rights????
Yes that is draconian but Malaysia respects its Chinese & Indian minorities.

Plus in Indonesia I doubt the law passes.

Please. America is extremely tolerant toward gay rights. The only area where there is "intolerance" is in the concept of gay marriage. And that's mostly a semantic argument because gay "civil unions" have been permitted for years. The gay marriage issue is mostly just a religious dispute. Calling homosexual union a "marriage" offends those who consider marriage a religious union under god. Nobody has a problem with a homosexual couple being granted most legal privileges of marriage such as the right to make medical decisions or inheritance benefits.

This is the type of false moral equivalence argument that make the liberal side so easy to dismiss. This idea that conservative Christians in America are just as intolerant as Muslims is utter nonsense. When was the last time a gay person was stoned to death here? Or fined; or arrested; or in any way legally restricted from merely being gay?

[cammac]

Malaysian law currently provides for whipping and up to a 20-year prison sentence for homosexual acts involving either men or women.

Indonesia is indeed an exception. It is definitely the most moderate of the Muslim nations. However, it is a curious exception that probably has much to do with its geography. It's hard to maintain a strict, conservative ideology over 17,000 isolated islands. They practice a variant of Islam known as Islam Nusantara, which is a blend of Islam with principles of Hinduism and ancient Java religions.

It will be interesting to see how long it lasts. Recently, there have been more extreme Sharia Law types moving in and spreading their anti-freedom ways.


http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35055487

I don't think USA has anything to brag about laws on Gay rights????
Yes that is draconian but Malaysia respects its Chinese & Indian minorities.

Plus in Indonesia I doubt the law passes.

Please. America is extremely tolerant toward gay rights. The only area where there is "intolerance" is in the concept of gay marriage. And that's mostly a semantic argument because gay "civil unions" have been permitted for years. The gay marriage issue is mostly just a religious dispute. Calling homosexual union a "marriage" offends those who consider marriage a religious union under god. Nobody has a problem with a homosexual couple being granted most legal privileges of marriage such as the right to make medical decisions or inheritance benefits.

This is the type of false moral equivalence argument that make the liberal side so easy to dismiss. This idea that conservative Christians in America are just as intolerant as Muslims is utter nonsense. When was the last time a gay person was stoned to death here? Or fined; or arrested; or in any way legally restricted from merely being gay?

Nate
The USA has been brought kicking and screaming into every major civil liberty in history.
Both Malaysia & Indonesia have become democracies after being colonial societies and have advanced as decent societies in 60 years. Have they a way to go yes but stop being smug.

The USA is basically the only Western society that condones the death penalty other than Japan which has it in a extremely narrow circumstance which is almost never used. Where USA is up there with the worst countries on earth.

The USA is still fighting abortion instead of promoting education and contraception militants on a yearly basis bomb clinics or target doctors. Canada has no abortion laws yet have significant less % abortions than USA. All countries take time to crawl out of the swamp of prejudice.

[dckingsfan]

Wait, so America is or isn't tolerant toward gays. How is gay marriage going in Malaysia?

Come on cammac, you can do better than that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Malaysia

[cammac]

Wait, so America is or isn't tolerant toward gays. How is gay marriage going in Malaysia?

Come on cammac, you can do better than that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Malaysia

In evolution of nationhood Malaysia is where USA was in the 40's they have overcome some bad regimes and the new leaders are more progressive. Sure do I like there stance on gay rights no but put things into prospective. Generational changes happen and both Indonesia and Malaysia are on the right track. Its hard to pick out Muslim countries discriminating against gay/lesbian unions Russia & China are very bad also.

[nate33]

I don't think USA has anything to brag about laws on Gay rights????
Yes that is draconian but Malaysia respects its Chinese & Indian minorities.

Plus in Indonesia I doubt the law passes.

Please. America is extremely tolerant toward gay rights. The only area where there is "intolerance" is in the concept of gay marriage. And that's mostly a semantic argument because gay "civil unions" have been permitted for years. The gay marriage issue is mostly just a religious dispute. Calling homosexual union a "marriage" offends those who consider marriage a religious union under god. Nobody has a problem with a homosexual couple being granted most legal privileges of marriage such as the right to make medical decisions or inheritance benefits.

This is the type of false moral equivalence argument that make the liberal side so easy to dismiss. This idea that conservative Christians in America are just as intolerant as Muslims is utter nonsense. When was the last time a gay person was stoned to death here? Or fined; or arrested; or in any way legally restricted from merely being gay?

Nate
The USA has been brought kicking and screaming into every major civil liberty in history.
Both Malaysia & Indonesia have become democracies after being colonial societies and have advanced as decent societies in 60 years. Have they a way to go yes but stop being smug.

The USA is basically the only Western society that condones the death penalty other than Japan which has it in a extremely narrow circumstance which is almost never used. Where USA is up there with the worst countries on earth.

The USA is still fighting abortion instead of promoting education and contraception militants on a yearly basis bomb clinics or target doctors. Canada has no abortion laws yet have significant less % abortions than USA. All countries take time to crawl out of the swamp of prejudice.

Sorry. That argument won't work. Being pro-life isn't in any way denying "civil liberties" to anyone. It is merely recognizing the civil liberties of the infant as well. I happen to be pro-choice, but I totally understand and respect the argument of pro-lifers. They're not evil, hateful people who want to crush women's rights. They just view the right to life of the infant as outweighing the right to convenience of the mother. It's a completely rational stance.

Likewise, I don't consider the death penalty as being an infringement on anyone's rights. I don't really see the logic of life imprisonment. If we have concluded that an individual is unfit to live among us, and has no chance of rehabilitation, then why spend millions of taxpayer dollars to keep him alive for 60 years? The best argument against the death penalty has nothing to do with civil liberties, it is the fact that the state can be mistaken in labeling someone guilty.

This is what the left does. They control the media and universities, so they get to define what is the high ground on issues of civil liberties. If you're not with the left, you are somehow morally bankrupt or ideologically backward. I reject the premise that the left has the "correct" stance on issues like abortion and the death penalty.

[cammac]

Please. America is extremely tolerant toward gay rights. The only area where there is "intolerance" is in the concept of gay marriage. And that's mostly a semantic argument because gay "civil unions" have been permitted for years. The gay marriage issue is mostly just a religious dispute. Calling homosexual union a "marriage" offends those who consider marriage a religious union under god. Nobody has a problem with a homosexual couple being granted most legal privileges of marriage such as the right to make medical decisions or inheritance benefits.

This is the type of false moral equivalence argument that make the liberal side so easy to dismiss. This idea that conservative Christians in America are just as intolerant as Muslims is utter nonsense. When was the last time a gay person was stoned to death here? Or fined; or arrested; or in any way legally restricted from merely being gay?

Nate
The USA has been brought kicking and screaming into every major civil liberty in history.
Both Malaysia & Indonesia have become democracies after being colonial societies and have advanced as decent societies in 60 years. Have they a way to go yes but stop being smug.

The USA is basically the only Western society that condones the death penalty other than Japan which has it in a extremely narrow circumstance which is almost never used. Where USA is up there with the worst countries on earth.

The USA is still fighting abortion instead of promoting education and contraception militants on a yearly basis bomb clinics or target doctors. Canada has no abortion laws yet have significant less % abortions than USA. All countries take time to crawl out of the swamp of prejudice.

Sorry. That argument won't work. Being pro-life isn't in any way denying "civil liberties" to anyone. It is merely recognizing the civil liberties of the infant as well. I happen to be pro-choice, but I totally understand and respect the argument of pro-lifers. They're not evil, hateful people who want to crush women's rights. They just view the right to life of the infant as outweighing the right to convenience of the mother. It's a completely rational stance.

Likewise, I don't consider the death penalty as being an infringement on anyone's rights. I don't really see the logic of life imprisonment. If we have concluded that an individual is unfit to live among us, and has no chance of rehabilitation, then why spend millions of taxpayer dollars to keep him alive for 60 years? The best argument against the death penalty has nothing to do with civil liberties, it is the fact that the state can be mistaken in labeling someone guilty.

This is what the left does. They control the media and universities, so they get to define what is the high ground on issues of civil liberties. If you're not with the left, you are somehow morally bankrupt or ideologically backward. I reject the premise that the left has the "correct" stance on issues like abortion and the death penalty.

What about countless innocent people executed each with their blood on your hands. Also life imprisonment from a taxpayers point of view is likely less costly than the countless appeals process. Have nothing against pro-life it is there choice but when they want to dictate for the majority that is wrong.

I've seen a miscarriage of justice when Canada still had the death penalty. A teenager sentenced to death but was amended to life. Latter exonerated for the murder turned me away from ever considering the death penalty. That isn't to say if someone harmed my daughters and it was 100% clear that the person was guilty I would be waiting at the prison doors the second they were released to kill them. That is a personal choice not a societal

[nate33]

Nate
The USA has been brought kicking and screaming into every major civil liberty in history.
Both Malaysia & Indonesia have become democracies after being colonial societies and have advanced as decent societies in 60 years. Have they a way to go yes but stop being smug.

The USA is basically the only Western society that condones the death penalty other than Japan which has it in a extremely narrow circumstance which is almost never used. Where USA is up there with the worst countries on earth.

The USA is still fighting abortion instead of promoting education and contraception militants on a yearly basis bomb clinics or target doctors. Canada has no abortion laws yet have significant less % abortions than USA. All countries take time to crawl out of the swamp of prejudice.

Sorry. That argument won't work. Being pro-life isn't in any way denying "civil liberties" to anyone. It is merely recognizing the civil liberties of the infant as well. I happen to be pro-choice, but I totally understand and respect the argument of pro-lifers. They're not evil, hateful people who want to crush women's rights. They just view the right to life of the infant as outweighing the right to convenience of the mother. It's a completely rational stance.

Likewise, I don't consider the death penalty as being an infringement on anyone's rights. I don't really see the logic of life imprisonment. If we have concluded that an individual is unfit to live among us, and has no chance of rehabilitation, then why spend millions of taxpayer dollars to keep him alive for 60 years? The best argument against the death penalty has nothing to do with civil liberties, it is the fact that the state can be mistaken in labeling someone guilty.

This is what the left does. They control the media and universities, so they get to define what is the high ground on issues of civil liberties. If you're not with the left, you are somehow morally bankrupt or ideologically backward. I reject the premise that the left has the "correct" stance on issues like abortion and the death penalty.

What about countless innocent people executed each with their blood on your hands. Also life imprisonment from a taxpayers point of view is likely less costly than the countless appeals process. Have nothing against pro-life it is there choice but when they want to dictate for the majority that is wrong.

I've seen a miscarriage of justice when Canada still had the death penalty. A teenager sentenced to death but was amended to life. Latter exonerated for the murder turned me away from ever considering the death penalty. That isn't to say if someone harmed my daughters and it was 100% clear that the person was guilty I would be waiting at the prison doors the second they were released to kill them. That is a personal choice not a societal

I thought I made it clear that the possibility of mistakes is the most powerful argument against the death penalty. But death as a punishment for heinous crimes doesn't strike me as cruel and unusual. The problem is that it is final and cannot be overturned. If we are going to use the death penalty, we need to be "absolutely sure" of guilt, not merely "beyond reasonable doubt".

[dckingsfan]

Wait, so America is or isn't tolerant toward gays. How is gay marriage going in Malaysia?

Come on cammac, you can do better than that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Malaysia

In evolution of nationhood Malaysia is where USA was in the 40's they have overcome some bad regimes and the new leaders are more progressive. Sure do I like there stance on gay rights no but put things into prospective. Generational changes happen and both Indonesia and Malaysia are on the right track. Its hard to pick out Muslim countries discriminating against gay/lesbian unions Russia & China are very bad also.

Then holding up Malaysia against the US is a bad argument. US has it's problem as do most countries. But there is a reason that people want to immigrate here and not to Malaysia (or Russia or China for that matter).

[dckingsfan]

As for abortion rates, our trend is pretty good:





vs.

[cammac]

Wait, so America is or isn't tolerant toward gays. How is gay marriage going in Malaysia?

Come on cammac, you can do better than that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Malaysia

In evolution of nationhood Malaysia is where USA was in the 40's they have overcome some bad regimes and the new leaders are more progressive. Sure do I like there stance on gay rights no but put things into prospective. Generational changes happen and both Indonesia and Malaysia are on the right track. Its hard to pick out Muslim countries discriminating against gay/lesbian unions Russia & China are very bad also.

Then holding up Malaysia against the US is a bad argument. US has it's problem as do most countries. But there is a reason that people want to immigrate here and not to Malaysia (or Russia or China for that matter).

My comment is that there are tolerant Muslim countries Malaysia & Indonesia are against Nate's rant. Who said China or Russia are tolerant countries I just returned from living 10 years in China. Its just America is just some American politicians are pissing on what America stands for Freedom of Religion.

America has the right to select who becomes a citizen countries do. But it should never be on a persons religion. Do I agree with Radical Muslims hell no who will restrict the freedom of people, but I disagree with Radical Christians and Radical Jews. Think right wings of all religions are appalling and are scum of the earth.

[dckingsfan]

Got it - it came off as, "the US is intolerant".

[nate33]

In evolution of nationhood Malaysia is where USA was in the 40's they have overcome some bad regimes and the new leaders are more progressive. Sure do I like there stance on gay rights no but put things into prospective. Generational changes happen and both Indonesia and Malaysia are on the right track. Its hard to pick out Muslim countries discriminating against gay/lesbian unions Russia & China are very bad also.

Then holding up Malaysia against the US is a bad argument. US has it's problem as do most countries. But there is a reason that people want to immigrate here and not to Malaysia (or Russia or China for that matter).

My comment is that there are tolerant Muslim countries Malaysia & Indonesia are against Nate's rant. Who said China or Russia are tolerant countries I just returned from living 10 years in China. Its just America is just some American politicians are pissing on what America stands for Freedom of Religion.

America has the right to select who becomes a citizen countries do. But it should never be on a persons religion. Do I agree with Radical Muslims hell no who will restrict the freedom of people, but I disagree with Radical Christians and Radical Jews. Think right wings of all religions are appalling and are scum of the earth.

Okay. I'll take the Muslims from Indonesia, but not the ones from the Middle East and South Asia. I'm sure that's unfair to the millions of moderate Muslims in the Middle East, but life isn't always fair. I prioritize my concerns for Americans above Middle Eastern Muslims and I'm not going to apologize for it.

If moderate Muslims want a country where they can be free to practice their moderate Muslimness, then they should fight the radical Muslims in their midst and defeat them. If there are too many radical Muslims for the moderate Muslims to defeat, well then that just confirms my concerns about Middle Eastern Muslims in general. Too many of them are radical nut jobs.

[cammac]

Then holding up Malaysia against the US is a bad argument. US has it's problem as do most countries. But there is a reason that people want to immigrate here and not to Malaysia (or Russia or China for that matter).

My comment is that there are tolerant Muslim countries Malaysia & Indonesia are against Nate's rant. Who said China or Russia are tolerant countries I just returned from living 10 years in China. Its just America is just some American politicians are pissing on what America stands for Freedom of Religion.

America has the right to select who becomes a citizen countries do. But it should never be on a persons religion. Do I agree with Radical Muslims hell no who will restrict the freedom of people, but I disagree with Radical Christians and Radical Jews. Think right wings of all religions are appalling and are scum of the earth.

Okay. I'll take the Muslims from Indonesia, but not the ones from the Middle East and South Asia. I'm sure that's unfair to the millions of moderate Muslims in the Middle East, but life isn't always fair. I prioritize my concerns for Americans above Middle Eastern Muslims and I'm not going to apologize for it.

If moderate Muslims want a country where they can be free to practice their moderate Muslimness, then they should fight the radical Muslims in their midst and defeat them. If there are too many radical Muslims for the moderate Muslims to defeat, well then that just confirms my concerns about Middle Eastern Muslims in general. Too many of them are radical nut jobs.

Canada just brought 25,000 refugees from mostly Iraq & Syria who have been living in Jordon they have been thoroughly looked at and Canada plans another 10,000. Do I feel safe the answer is yes simply because many are family members of Canadians and most of the rest sponsored by a wide variety of religious groups and individuals. Plus as in the USA I believe most mosques co-operate with the various police departments.

Obviously there are rogue individuals in every religious, social economic and racial groups.