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The Next Head Coach

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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#81 » by GMATCallahan » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:16 am

jcsunsfan wrote:I think Nash would be a horrible choice. To me, he is more of a GM personality than a coach. I have never considered Majerle a worthy coaching candidate. He always seemed like more of a partier. I have never been particularly impressed with his intelligence. Watson would be fine for now. He seems good with the young players. Wright seems like he would be fine, though I am concered with the jump from college to the pros. And DAntoni, well, the next coach has to be able to develop a talented crop of young players, even at the expense of wins. Since when has DAntoni ever been willing to do that. MDA has been a failure everywhere he has gone except his stint with the Suns. Not interested.


D'Antoni did coach the Knicks to the playoffs for the first time in seven years, and he coached a decrepit Laker club to the playoffs when the West actually proved deep. Overall, he has not enjoyed a solid situation since he was in Phoenix. D'Antoni has also developed a host of young players, most notably Joe Johnson, Amar'e Stoudemire, Leandro Barbosa, Boris Diaw, David Lee, Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, and Jeremy Lin. One could argue that such development represents one of the most attractive aspects of his coaching resume. (Yes, Stoudemire received the Rookie of the Year Award before D'Antoni became his head coach, but D'Antoni also understood how to optimize Stoudemire for maximum efficiency.)

Majerle works hard, and I believe that he is reasonably intelligent. He was a partier as a player, which is one reason why Charles Barkley was crushed by the Suns' trade of Majerle. Barkley liked Kevin Johnson, but he knew that they would not be closing down the town together, as indicated in this humorous exchange from the night of Sir Charles' return to Phoenix as a Houston Rocket on November 2, 1996:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmfwiPGKUkg[/youtube]

(See from 1:49-2:10.)

Had Majerle been in town, he would have almost certainly attended Barkley's party. But unlike Barkley, Majerle made sure to get his work in. He practiced hard, and he was an animal in the weight room.

I feel that he would be well-liked by the players, but he would also be tougher on them than Watson, which is something that they may need. Additionally, Majerle learned from two great coaches in Cotton Fitzsimmons and Pat Riley, not to mention Mike Fratello.

But whether the Suns want to go down that road again is another matter.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#82 » by bwgood77 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:40 am

GMATCallahan wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:I think Nash would be a horrible choice. To me, he is more of a GM personality than a coach. I have never considered Majerle a worthy coaching candidate. He always seemed like more of a partier. I have never been particularly impressed with his intelligence. Watson would be fine for now. He seems good with the young players. Wright seems like he would be fine, though I am concered with the jump from college to the pros. And DAntoni, well, the next coach has to be able to develop a talented crop of young players, even at the expense of wins. Since when has DAntoni ever been willing to do that. MDA has been a failure everywhere he has gone except his stint with the Suns. Not interested.


D'Antoni did coach the Knicks to the playoffs for the first time in seven years, and he coached a decrepit Laker club to the playoffs when the West actually proved deep. Overall, he has not enjoyed a solid situation since he was in Phoenix. D'Antoni has also developed a host of young players, most notably Joe Johnson, Amar'e Stoudemire, Leandro Barbosa, Boris Diaw, David Lee, Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, and Jeremy Lin. One could argue that such development represents one of the most attractive aspects of his coaching resume. (Yes, Stoudemire received the Rookie of the Year Award before D'Antoni became his head coach, but D'Antoni also understood how to optimize Stoudemire for maximum efficiency.)

Majerle works hard, and I believe that he is reasonably intelligent. He was a partier as a player, which is one reason why Charles Barkley was crushed by the Suns' trade of Majerle. Barkley liked Kevin Johnson, but he knew that they would not be closing down the town together, as indicated in this humorous anecdote from the night of Sir Charles' return to Phoenix as a Houston Rocket on November 2, 1996:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmfwiPGKUkg[/youtube]

(See from 1:49-2:10.)

Had Majerle been in town, he would have almost certainly attended Barkley's party. But unlike Barkley, Majerle made sure to get his work in. He practiced hard, and he was an animal in the weight room.

I feel that he would be well-liked by the players, but he would also be tougher on them than Watson, which is something that they may need. Additionally, Majerle learned from two great coaches in Cotton Fitzsimmons and Pat Riley, not to mention Mike Fratello.

But whether the Suns want to go down that road again is another matter.


If Barkley would have accepted the same role with the Suns that he talks about with the Rockets, the Suns probably have a championship. The offense needed to run through KJ and they would have been unstoppable.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#83 » by GMATCallahan » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:43 am

DirtyDez wrote:The 09' Thunder won 23 games and went the WCF's two years later. If the Wolves get Thibbs I can see a similar scenario playing out. As for Majerle i doubt the Suns put themselves in a situation where they could possibly be spurned by a coach in the WAC.


... sure, it can happen, but the Thunder also used three straight top-four draft picks to procure a spectacular bushel of offensive talent over a three-year span: Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, and James Harden. I doubt that Minnesota will become that strong that quickly unless the Wolves significantly upgrade their roster.

Unfortunately, under Sarver, the Suns never even attempted the Oklahoma City approach: commit to a full-fledged rebuilding mission, score a series of very high lottery picks, and see if the right combination of luck and drafting acumen allows you to hit the jackpot.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#84 » by ATTL » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:42 am

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The Next Head Coach 

Post#85 » by jcsunsfan » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:52 am

GMATCallahan wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:The 09' Thunder won 23 games and went the WCF's two years later. If the Wolves get Thibbs I can see a similar scenario playing out. As for Majerle i doubt the Suns put themselves in a situation where they could possibly be spurned by a coach in the WAC.


... sure, it can happen, but the Thunder also used three straight top-four draft picks to procure a spectacular bushel of offensive talent over a three-year span: Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, and James Harden. I doubt that Minnesota will become that strong that quickly unless the Wolves significantly upgrade their roster.

Unfortunately, under Sarver, the Suns never even attempted the Oklahoma City approach: commit to a full-fledged rebuilding mission, score a series of very high lottery picks, and see if the right combination of luck and drafting acumen allows you to hit the jackpot.


The Suns don't have the luxury of finding a team that will trade them two future first round picks just to take a decent player with a decent salary off their hands.

Btw that is on Steve Kerr.


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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#86 » by Damkac » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:10 am

Frank Lee wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:Yeah sure GT... You are right... Let's shy away from legit talent and bank on more lotto shots with a rook PF

You can't be afraid to compete


Being the 7th/8th seed in the Western Conference is not competing. Are you currently watching the play-offs or are you busy staring outside at your garden?


man.... you are the one with the flowerpot hat.... if you think McMully will pass on trying to make the playoffs with a big FA or trade then truly you have compost for brains. jeez... could it be possible we make the 6th seed? But since you are so chickensheety afraid of playing GSt orSA, why even bother ?

fn cowards never know what they are capable of

If Suns would be 8th seed with Booker, Warren and Len as leaders it would be amazing. Being 8th seed with 29 years old Horford as leader is not so good. It's not only how good you are right now but how much room for improvement do you have.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#87 » by GMATCallahan » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:48 am

bwgood77 wrote:If Barkley would have accepted the same role with the Suns that he talks about with the Rockets, the Suns probably have a championship. The offense needed to run through KJ and they would have been unstoppable.


Barkley may have humbled himself slightly with Houston by recognizing that he was a little older (thirty-three at the time of the trade) and that he could no longer carry a club as consistently as he had a few years earlier. Plus, Barkley had to respect the fact that Hakeem Olajuwon had already led the Rockets to two championships in Houston, aided by Clyde Drexler for the second title. Olajuwon and Drexler were champions, whereas Barkley was still trying to become one.

But by their second year together, Barkley ended up squabbling with Olajuwon and Drexler over the ball, anyway.

I studied Game One of the 1994 Western Conference Semifinals, between the Suns and Rockets, over the last couple of weeks. In the fourth quarter, the Suns mainly used Barkley as a decoy while K.J. controlled the offense from the right wing on almost every possession. The strategy worked well: the visiting Suns scored 30 points in the quarter and out-scored Houston by nine to win the game 91-87, led by K.J.'s 11 points in the period on 5-8 field goal shooting (1-2 from the free throw line, with the miss being irrelevant as the Suns had a four-point lead with 5.5 seconds to play and the Rockets had no timeouts remaining), plus 2 assists, 1 turnover, and 3 rebounds. K.J. shot 5-5 on jumpers in the quarter, one an open catch-and-shoot eighteen-footer off a kick-out pass from Barkley on the left block, the other four being one-on-one pull-up jumpers over Houston's starting guards: a seventeen-footer over Kenny Smith to open the period, an eighteen-foot step-back over Vernon Maxwell (an elite defender) from the right baseline, a thirteen-footer along the right baseline over Smith, and a nineteen-footer over Maxwell from the right baseline to basically win the game (after the Suns' lead had been narrowed to one) where Barkley was coming out to set a pick, and K.J. saw Maxwell peeking to his right and backing up slightly in anticipation of the screen. As soon as K.J. saw Maxwell peeking and shuffling for a split-second, he rose up and pulled the trigger. Of K.J.'s three misses, one was a driving layup where Otis Thorpe knocked the ball off the rim and should have been called for goal-tending, as noted by Steve "Snapper" Jones on the NBC telecast. Another miss came off an offensive rebound at the basket, and the third was a left-handed layup attempt with the shot clock about to expire that Thorpe blocked and Barkley put back in, one of Sir Charles' two field goals in the quarter. (The other came when Barkley back-slipped a pick-and-roll and laid in the long alley-oop lob pass from K.J.)

When K.J. was not pulling up for jumpers, he was repeatedly driving under the hoop from the right baseline, collapsing Houston's defense, and kicking the ball out to the perimeter. The ball was moving, bodies were moving, and the Suns' offense proved both fluid and controlled.

K.J. played all 48 minutes and Barkley played 45; keeping the ball in K.J.'s hands, for the most part, during the fourth quarter made sense, because K.J. had the conditioning to go all 48 and thrive down the stretch (even while playing with an undiagnosed sports hernia) whereas Barkley did not.

I have started studying (or re-studying) Game Two of the series, which I last viewed four years ago. Barkley scored 10 points in the first three minutes of the game: blowing past Otis Thorpe along the left baseline and dunking on Robert Horry, hitting a three from the left wing, hitting a pull-up jumper along the left baseline while drawing the foul on Thorpe, crossing over left-to-right, between his legs, on Thorpe to get into the paint from the soft left corner, using an up-and-under fake to clear Thorpe out of the way, and then rocking back to sink a high-arching fadeaway jumper over the out-stretched lunge of Hakeem Olajuwon. When Barkley was fresh, he could certainly be unstoppable and unique. Rarely, however, could he sustain that level throughout a full game.

The Suns' offense, therefore, did not need to run through K.J. for four quarters. Rather, it usually needed to run through K.J. in the fourth quarter, because Barkley was typically too tired by then and sometimes was even spent by the third or second quarter. (There were exceptions, of course.) And when the Suns got into trouble in the playoffs, the reason could sometimes be found in them trying to play through Barkley rather than K.J. in the fourth quarter. For instance, in Game Six of the 1993 NBA Finals, the offense was flowing nicely through K.J. in the second half, but Barkley shot 0-5 from the field off post-ups or "isos" in the fourth period. He hit two field goals in the period (shooting 2-7 in the fourth quarter): off an offensive rebound and off an assist from K.J. via a sort of two-part pick-and-roll where Mark West set the pick high on the left wing and rolled to occupy the help defender (Barkley's man), thus freeing Barkley with an open driving lane from around the top of the key after K.J. had delivered the ball to him. But Barkley's 0-5 in other situations meant that the Suns could not quite pull away, and of course the Bulls came back to win the title by one point, 99-98, on John Paxson's infamous three-pointer.

Another example was Game Five of the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals against Houston, when the Suns were trying to eliminate the Rockets at home. Barkley shot 1-13 from the field in the second half and overtime, plus 1-6 from the free throw line for the game (1-4 from the stripe late in the fourth quarter). K.J., conversely, was 9-12 from the field in the game when Barkley checked back into the contest during the fourth quarter, after the point guard had shot 18-24 in Game Four (plus 4-8 in Game Three, 12-18 in Game Two, and 8-12 in Game One). But as the offense froze behind Barkley's frigid shooting in the fourth quarter of Game Five, K.J. lost his own rhythm and finished 1-5 from the field the rest of the way. (He ended up with 28 points on 10-17 field goal shooting, plus 8 assists, 8 rebounds, and 2 blocks). Worse, on one play late in the fourth quarter, K.J. dished to Barkley off a pick-and-roll from the right wing, but Barkley did not have his hands up—he was already playing for an offensive rebound—and the ball sailed out of bounds. One can see a photograph of the play, just as K.J. is releasing the pass, here:

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/kevin-johnson-of-the-phoenix-suns-passes-against-chucky-news-photo/88761716

The Suns lost in overtime and ultimately lost the series.

So, again, during the Barkley years, Phoenix did not need to run its offense through Kevin Johnson throughout the game, but the offense usually needed to run through K.J. in the fourth quarter. And often times (perhaps the majority of the games), the offense indeed mostly ran through K.J. in the fourth, because Barkley was too fatigued and he would frequently be double-teamed in the post, anyway. But when Barkley demanded the ball in the fourth quarter despite his fatigue, the Suns' offense could become ugly, and those occasions may well have cost Phoenix championships in 1993 and 1995. (1994 constituted a different story, one that I can relay in another thread.) Again, there were exceptions, but if Barkley was not clearly countering the default position—that he was too tired to dominate or even be that effective in the fourth—then he needed to serve as a decoy. When he accepted that role in the fourth quarter, the Suns' performance was often bright, as in Game One of the 1994 Western Conference Semifinals.

For another example, seemingly everyone remembers Barkley's famous series-winning jumper over David Robinson at the close of Game Six of the 1993 Western Conference Semifinals in the last NBA game ever played at the old Hemisphere Arena in San Antonio. But how was the Suns' offense functioning and flowing down the stretch to get them to that point? See for yourself here:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9NUpX8JGc[/youtube]

Before Barkley buried that jumper, he was 9-23 from the field for the game. He dominated the first quarter offensively (sometimes at the cost of not bothering to run back on defense) and then did little the rest of the way—aside from rebounding—until the final possession. And that kind of performance was not atypical. As long as Barkley did not 'fight' his fatigue in the fourth quarter, matters could work because of K.J.'s presence. But if he tried to take over in the fourth with little-to-nothing in his tank, the results could be very poor indeed.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#88 » by GMATCallahan » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:52 am

Damkac wrote:If Suns would be 8th seed with Booker, Warren and Len as leaders it would be amazing. Being 8th seed with 29 years old Horford as leader is not so good. It's not only how good you are right now but how much room for improvement do you have.


... plus the fact that Horford turns thirty in June.

I have always liked Horford, but his athleticism is waning and he hardly seems to jump any more. He could be the missing piece for some team, but the Suns are far from being that team.

And why would he want to play for Phoenix, anyway? A guy like him will be looking to win a ring, not join a 23-win team that has not made the playoffs in years.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#89 » by Frank Lee » Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:57 pm

GMATCallahan wrote:
Damkac wrote:If Suns would be 8th seed with Booker, Warren and Len as leaders it would be amazing. Being 8th seed with 29 years old Horford as leader is not so good. It's not only how good you are right now but how much room for improvement do you have.


... plus the fact that Horford turns thirty in June.

I have always liked Horford, but his athleticism is waning and he hardly seems to jump any more. He could be the missing piece for some team, but the Suns are far from being that team.

And why would he want to play for Phoenix, anyway? A guy like him will be looking to win a ring, not join a 23-win team that has not made the playoffs in years.


Granted, there are not going to be too many FAs who will want to play for Phoenix.... but to think McMully wont try to obtain a guy like Horford ignores what he has said in the past, and what he did last yr. BTW... LMA is 30. Perhaps McMully will have better luck trading for his superstar. You are right, one guy wont make the difference, but with money to spend and some expendable assets, he wont be shy, and no doubt will try to do more than his sister-kissing history.

Would you scoff at a KLove acquisition too ?
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#90 » by BobbieL » Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:33 pm

Frank Lee wrote:
GMATCallahan wrote:
Damkac wrote:If Suns would be 8th seed with Booker, Warren and Len as leaders it would be amazing. Being 8th seed with 29 years old Horford as leader is not so good. It's not only how good you are right now but how much room for improvement do you have.


... plus the fact that Horford turns thirty in June.

I have always liked Horford, but his athleticism is waning and he hardly seems to jump any more. He could be the missing piece for some team, but the Suns are far from being that team.

And why would he want to play for Phoenix, anyway? A guy like him will be looking to win a ring, not join a 23-win team that has not made the playoffs in years.


Granted, there are not going to be too many FAs who will want to play for Phoenix.... but to think McMully wont try to obtain a guy like Horford ignores what he has said in the past, and what he did last yr. BTW... LMA is 30. Perhaps McMully will have better luck trading for his superstar. You are right, one guy wont make the difference, but with money to spend and some expendable assets, he wont be shy, and no doubt will try to do more than his sister-kissing history.

Would you scoff at a KLove acquisition too ?


I still think Love would be a good trade target. But without Kieff - I am not sure what we would need to go to Cleveland. Granted, the Suns can take on his contract I do believe.

Do the Cavs want Brandon Knight? As no way is that guy starting over Booker. NO. WAY

As for the Coach, I am fine with Watson. And what I mean by fine is guys like Brooks and McHale don't excite me. I like Mark Jackson but in reading about Watson - they are brining the game kind of "style " to the team - meaning, maybe not strong on X's and O's but strong on building a culture of how to win in the NBA. Thibs - he should go to a team like Minny with more talent than Phoenix. So, why not give Earl another year with a good veteran assistant. Either way, its the roster that will be the key
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#91 » by Gorilla Warfare » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:15 pm

The guy I would like is Thibs...but I do feel the Ewing deserves a shot as well. As a big man coach i'm sure he could help Len and possibly Thon Maker if we can manage to pick him up with our late 1st round pick. I REALLY think we need to consider moving Knight for a proven pass-first floor general which would balance this team much more. Too many shoot-first players on this team right now, especially at the PG and SG position.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#92 » by bwgood77 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:28 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:
GMATCallahan wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:The 09' Thunder won 23 games and went the WCF's two years later. If the Wolves get Thibbs I can see a similar scenario playing out. As for Majerle i doubt the Suns put themselves in a situation where they could possibly be spurned by a coach in the WAC.


... sure, it can happen, but the Thunder also used three straight top-four draft picks to procure a spectacular bushel of offensive talent over a three-year span: Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, and James Harden. I doubt that Minnesota will become that strong that quickly unless the Wolves significantly upgrade their roster.

Unfortunately, under Sarver, the Suns never even attempted the Oklahoma City approach: commit to a full-fledged rebuilding mission, score a series of very high lottery picks, and see if the right combination of luck and drafting acumen allows you to hit the jackpot.


The Suns don't have the luxury of finding a team that will trade them two future first round picks just to take a decent player with a decent salary off their hands.

Btw that is on Steve Kerr.


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I don't think Kerr just decided one day that he felt like he wanted to get rid of a couple of firsts and a useful player and called them up. I'm sure he was told to do so.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#93 » by bwgood77 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:39 pm

Spoiler:
GMATCallahan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:If Barkley would have accepted the same role with the Suns that he talks about with the Rockets, the Suns probably have a championship. The offense needed to run through KJ and they would have been unstoppable.


Barkley may have humbled himself slightly with Houston by recognizing that he was a little older (thirty-three at the time of the trade) and that he could no longer carry a club as consistently as he had a few years earlier. Plus, Barkley had to respect the fact that Hakeem Olajuwon had already led the Rockets to two championships in Houston, aided by Clyde Drexler for the second title. Olajuwon and Drexler were champions, whereas Barkley was still trying to become one.

But by their second year together, Barkley ended up squabbling with Olajuwon and Drexler over the ball, anyway.

I studied Game One of the 1994 Western Conference Semifinals, between the Suns and Rockets, over the last couple of weeks. In the fourth quarter, the Suns mainly used Barkley as a decoy while K.J. controlled the offense from the right wing on almost every possession. The strategy worked well: the visiting Suns scored 30 points in the quarter and out-scored Houston by nine to win the game 91-87, led by K.J.'s 11 points in the period on 5-8 field goal shooting (1-2 from the free throw line, with the miss being irrelevant as the Suns had a four-point lead with 5.5 seconds to play and the Rockets had no timeouts remaining), plus 2 assists, 1 turnover, and 3 rebounds. K.J. shot 5-5 on jumpers in the quarter, one an open catch-and-shoot eighteen-footer off a kick-out pass from Barkley on the left block, the other four being one-on-one pull-up jumpers over Houston's starting guards: a seventeen-footer over Kenny Smith to open the period, an eighteen-foot step-back over Vernon Maxwell (an elite defender) from the right baseline, a thirteen-footer along the right baseline over Smith, and a nineteen-footer over Maxwell from the right baseline to basically win the game (after the Suns' lead had been narrowed to one) where Barkley was coming out to set a pick, and K.J. saw Maxwell peeking to his right and backing up slightly in anticipation of the screen. As soon as K.J. saw Maxwell peeking and shuffling for a split-second, he rose up and pulled the trigger. Of K.J.'s three misses, one was a driving layup where Otis Thorpe knocked the ball off the rim and should have been called for goal-tending, as noted by Steve "Snapper" Jones on the NBC telecast. Another miss came off an offensive rebound at the basket, and the third was a left-handed layup attempt with the shot clock about to expire that Thorpe blocked and Barkley put back in, one of Sir Charles' two field goals in the quarter. (The other came when Barkley back-slipped a pick-and-roll and slammed the long alley-oop lob pass from K.J.)

When K.J. was not pulling up for jumpers, he was repeatedly driving under the hoop from the right baseline, collapsing Houston's defense, and kicking the ball out to the perimeter. The ball was moving, bodies were moving, and the Suns' offense proved both fluid and controlled.

K.J. played all 48 minutes and Barkley played 45; keeping the ball in K.J.'s hands, for the most part, during the fourth quarter made sense, because K.J. had the conditioning to go all 48 and thrive down the stretch (even while playing with an undiagnosed sports hernia) whereas Barkley did not.

I have started studying (or re-studying) Game Two of the series, which I last viewed four years ago. Barkley scored 10 points in the first three minutes of the game: blowing past Otis Thorpe along the left baseline and dunking on Robert Horry, hitting a three from the left wing, hitting a pull-up jumper along the left baseline while drawing the foul on Thorpe, crossing-over left-to-right, between his legs, on Thorpe to get into the paint from the soft left corner, using an up-and-under fake to clear Thorpe out of the way, and then rocking back to shoot a high-arching fadeaway jumper over the out-stretched lunge of Hakeem Olajuwon. When Barkley was fresh, he could certainly be unstoppable and unique. Rarely, however, could he sustain that level throughout a full game.

The Suns' offense, therefore, did not need to run through K.J. for four quarters. Rather, it usually needed to run through K.J. in the fourth quarter, because Barkley was typically too tired by then and sometimes was even spent by the third or second quarter. (There were exceptions, of course.) And when the Suns got into trouble in the playoffs, the reason could sometimes be found in them trying to play through Barkley rather than K.J. in the fourth quarter. For instance, in Game Six of the 1993 NBA Finals, the offense was flowing nicely through K.J. in the second half, but Barkley shot 0-5 from the field off post-ups or "isos" in the fourth period. He hit two field goals in the period (shooting 2-7 in the fourth quarter): off an offensive rebound and off an assist from K.J. via a sort of double pick-and-roll where Mark West set the first pick high on the left wing and rolled to occupy the help defender (Barkley's man), thus freeing Barkley with an open driving lane from around the top of the key after K.J. had delivered the ball to him. But Barkley's 0-5 in other situations meant that the Suns could not quite pull away, and of course the Bulls came back to win the title by one point, 99-98, on John Paxson's infamous three-pointer.

Another example was Game Five of the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals against Houston, when the Suns were trying to eliminate the Rockets at home. Barkley shot 1-13 in the second half and overtime, plus 1-6 from the free throw line for the game (1-4 from the stripe late in the fourth quarter). K.J., conversely, was 9-12 from the field in the game when Barkley checked back into the contest during the fourth quarter, after the point guard had shot 18-24 in Game Four (plus 4-8 in Game Three, 12-18 in Game Two, and 8-12 in Game One). But as the offense froze behind Barkley's frigid shooting in the fourth quarter of Game Five, K.J. lost his own rhythm and finished 1-5 from the field the rest of the way. (He ended up with 28 points on 10-17 field goal shooting, plus 8 assists, 8 rebounds, and 2 blocks). Worse, on one play late in the fourth quarter, K.J. dished to Barkley off a pick-and-roll from the right wing, but Barkley did not have his hands up—he was already playing for an offensive rebound—and the ball sailed out of bounds. One can see a photograph of the play, just as K.J. is releasing the pass, here:

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/kevin-johnson-of-the-phoenix-suns-passes-against-chucky-news-photo/88761716

The Suns lost in overtime and ultimately lost the series.

So, again, during the Barkley years, Phoenix did not need to run its offense through Kevin Johnson throughout the game, but the offense usually needed to run through K.J. in the fourth quarter. And often times (perhaps the majority of the games), the offense indeed mostly ran through K.J. in the fourth, because Barkley was too fatigued and he would frequently be double-teamed in the post, anyway. But when Barkley demanded the ball in the fourth quarter despite his fatigue, the Suns offense could become ugly, and those occasions may well have cost Phoenix championships in 1993 and 1995. (1994 constituted a different story, one that I can relay in another thread.) Again, there were exceptions, but if Barkley was not clearly countering the default position—that he was too tired to dominate or even be that effective in the fourth—then he needed to serve as a decoy. When he accepted that role in the fourth quarter, the Suns' performance was often bright, as in Game One of the 1994 Western Conference Semifinals.

For another example, seemingly everyone remembers Barkley's famous series-winning jumper over David Robinson at the close of Game Six of the 1993 Western Conference Semifinals in the last NBA game ever played at the old Hemisphere Arena in San Antonio. But how was the Suns' offense functioning and flowing down the stretch to get them to that point? See for yourself here:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9NUpX8JGc[/youtube]

Before Barkley buried that jumper, he was 9-23 from the field for the game. He dominated the first quarter offensively (sometimes at the cost of not bothering to run back on defense) and then did little the rest of the way—aside from rebounding—until the final possession. And that kind of performance was not atypical. As long as Barkley did not 'fight' his fatigue in the fourth quarter, matters could work because of K.J.'s presence. But if he tried to take over in the fourth with little-to-nothing in his tank, the results could be very poor indeed.


That game 5 in 95 where Barkley went 1-13 in the second half and 1-6 from the line, and we STILL put it into OT mostly on the back of KJ and his 29, 8 and 8 on 59% shooting, was one of, if not THE most disappointing games as a Suns fan.

After taking the first two games by a combined 46 points, and stealing game 4 in Houston, they were ripe for the taking.

You are right that the ball needed to go through KJ in the 4th, and fatigue likely played a part with Barkley, but as good as he was in the regular season and some playoff games, he really felt like a choker when it was finally time to close the deal in these games, whereas KJ was the opposite.

And if KJ was the guy needed to run the offense through in the 4th which proved most effective, I do think it would have been most effective to do so the whole game. Was it always necessary? No, but it likely would have improved overall chemistry to some extent.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#94 » by bwgood77 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:47 pm

BobbieL wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:
GMATCallahan wrote:
... plus the fact that Horford turns thirty in June.

I have always liked Horford, but his athleticism is waning and he hardly seems to jump any more. He could be the missing piece for some team, but the Suns are far from being that team.

And why would he want to play for Phoenix, anyway? A guy like him will be looking to win a ring, not join a 23-win team that has not made the playoffs in years.


Granted, there are not going to be too many FAs who will want to play for Phoenix.... but to think McMully wont try to obtain a guy like Horford ignores what he has said in the past, and what he did last yr. BTW... LMA is 30. Perhaps McMully will have better luck trading for his superstar. You are right, one guy wont make the difference, but with money to spend and some expendable assets, he wont be shy, and no doubt will try to do more than his sister-kissing history.

Would you scoff at a KLove acquisition too ?


I still think Love would be a good trade target. But without Kieff - I am not sure what we would need to go to Cleveland. Granted, the Suns can take on his contract I do believe.

Do the Cavs want Brandon Knight? As no way is that guy starting over Booker. NO. WAY

As for the Coach, I am fine with Watson. And what I mean by fine is guys like Brooks and McHale don't excite me. I like Mark Jackson but in reading about Watson - they are brining the game kind of "style " to the team - meaning, maybe not strong on X's and O's but strong on building a culture of how to win in the NBA. Thibs - he should go to a team like Minny with more talent than Phoenix. So, why not give Earl another year with a good veteran assistant. Either way, its the roster that will be the key


I've talked about Love being the most realistic target, but that we don't quite have the right assets to get him because they will want more complete players. So I think it would have to be a three way trade, where we trade picks elsewhere to a rebuilding team that unloads vets to Cleveland...Brooklyn?

OR, if they can trade Kyrie elsewhere for a haul, then Knight WOULD make sense in Cleveland because, despite being a downgrade from Kyrie, it is a perfect situation for Knight because with LeBron being primary ball handler, Knight basically plays off ball even more so than with us, with better players and likely has fewer turnovers and even MORE wide open shots, and if he resort to dumb iso and long 2s, LeBron would let him have it. So if Kyrie was gone, Knight, Chandler and Tucker seem like they could be useful players. Then maybe they do that Kyrie for Favors trade mentioned if Utah would go for that. They would REALLY be stacked in the frontcourt, and couldn't stretch is though, so they would likely want a stretch 4 to play with LeBron (or a stretch 5).

And then if they DID get a guy like Favors, what would that mean for Tristan Thompson and his huge salary? They can have 2 lane cloggers plus Tyson so Kyrie would need to go for a 4.

MAYBE if we re-sign Telly, we could offer up him, Chandler and Tucker at the deadline, but still doesn't seem like enough.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#95 » by GMATCallahan » Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:07 pm

BobbieL wrote:I still think Love would be a good trade target. But without Kieff - I am not sure what we would need to go to Cleveland. Granted, the Suns can take on his contract I do believe.

Do the Cavs want Brandon Knight? As no way is that guy starting over Booker. NO. WAY

As for the Coach, I am fine with Watson. And what I mean by fine is guys like Brooks and McHale don't excite me. I like Mark Jackson but in reading about Watson - they are brining the game kind of "style " to the team - meaning, maybe not strong on X's and O's but strong on building a culture of how to win in the NBA. Thibs - he should go to a team like Minny with more talent than Phoenix. So, why not give Earl another year with a good veteran assistant. Either way, its the roster that will be the key


The Cavaliers would have no interest in Knight, and I still believe that Love is a vital player for Cleveland, as seen this afternoon. He is to the Cavaliers what Chris Bosh was to those Miami teams with LeBron James: people become obsessed with the (understandable and logical) decline in his numbers and lose sight of how he changes the games spatially and skill-wise for that offense.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#96 » by bwgood77 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:27 pm

ATTL wrote:http://web.archive.org/web/20071231032853/http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=743670

Fun stuff

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Goes to show no matter HOW good your team is and what a coach has done to put you in the upper tier of the league, there will always be people calling for the coach's head.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#97 » by jcsunsfan » Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:46 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:
GMATCallahan wrote:
... sure, it can happen, but the Thunder also used three straight top-four draft picks to procure a spectacular bushel of offensive talent over a three-year span: Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, and James Harden. I doubt that Minnesota will become that strong that quickly unless the Wolves significantly upgrade their roster.

Unfortunately, under Sarver, the Suns never even attempted the Oklahoma City approach: commit to a full-fledged rebuilding mission, score a series of very high lottery picks, and see if the right combination of luck and drafting acumen allows you to hit the jackpot.


The Suns don't have the luxury of finding a team that will trade them two future first round picks just to take a decent player with a decent salary off their hands.

Btw that is on Steve Kerr.


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I don't think Kerr just decided one day that he felt like he wanted to get rid of a couple of firsts and a useful player and called them up. I'm sure he was told to do so.


He was motivated by a money situation, but he was the one who negotiated that trade. He did not have to pull the trigger, in fact he could have negotiated that better. I don't want to get into an agument about it because it isn't that important to me. My take is that Sarver told him to get finances in order, and Kerr was a horrible negotiator and this was his horrible solution.

"There are so many trades made these days that are lousy trades that are made for financial purposes," Kerr told KNBR. "I mean I made one of the worst trades in NBA history. I traded Kurt Thomas and two first-round picks to Seattle for nothing, to save $16 million for our organization. Where was the NBA then to veto that trade for basketball reasons? That had nothing to do with basketball reasons."


http://archive.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/150711
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#98 » by bwgood77 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:55 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:
The Suns don't have the luxury of finding a team that will trade them two future first round picks just to take a decent player with a decent salary off their hands.

Btw that is on Steve Kerr.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums


I don't think Kerr just decided one day that he felt like he wanted to get rid of a couple of firsts and a useful player and called them up. I'm sure he was told to do so.


He was motivated by a money situation, but he was the one who negotiated that trade. He did not have to pull the trigger, in fact he could have negotiated that better. I don't want to get into an agument about it because it isn't that important to me. My take is that Sarver told him to get finances in order, and Kerr was a horrible negotiator and this was his horrible solution.

"There are so many trades made these days that are lousy trades that are made for financial purposes," Kerr told KNBR. "I mean I made one of the worst trades in NBA history. I traded Kurt Thomas and two first-round picks to Seattle for nothing, to save $16 million for our organization. Where was the NBA then to veto that trade for basketball reasons? That had nothing to do with basketball reasons."


http://archive.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/150711


He may have done better but I'm sure he looked around...that quote is what I meant though...it obviously wasn't done for basketball reasons. I'm guessing if that is the deal that was there, there wasn't many better ones around....usually not too many teams back then could absorb contracts.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#99 » by DirtyDez » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:29 am

bwgood77 wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
I don't think Kerr just decided one day that he felt like he wanted to get rid of a couple of firsts and a useful player and called them up. I'm sure he was told to do so.


He was motivated by a money situation, but he was the one who negotiated that trade. He did not have to pull the trigger, in fact he could have negotiated that better. I don't want to get into an agument about it because it isn't that important to me. My take is that Sarver told him to get finances in order, and Kerr was a horrible negotiator and this was his horrible solution.

"There are so many trades made these days that are lousy trades that are made for financial purposes," Kerr told KNBR. "I mean I made one of the worst trades in NBA history. I traded Kurt Thomas and two first-round picks to Seattle for nothing, to save $16 million for our organization. Where was the NBA then to veto that trade for basketball reasons? That had nothing to do with basketball reasons."


http://archive.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/150711


He may have done better but I'm sure he looked around...that quote is what I meant though...it obviously wasn't done for basketball reasons. I'm guessing if that is the deal that was there, there wasn't many better ones around....usually not too many teams back then could absorb contracts.


That deal had Sarver's prints all over it. The guy had loved to dump picks for L-Tax purposes. It's really a shame about 07'. Beat the Spurs, take out the Jazz and then Clevelend. That would've been another 6-7 home playoff games of revenue (and of course a title). Had that team won it all it would've been interesting to see what roster moves followed.
fromthetop321 wrote:I got Lebron number 1, he is also leading defensive player of the year. Curry's game still reminds me of Jeremy Lin to much.
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Re: The Next Head Coach 

Post#100 » by Puff » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:03 am

For everyone that wants Watson as head coach, just remember that he thinks that playing Bledsoe, Knight and Booker together will work out well. I quite frankly agree with him. Remember also that he appears to have a love affair with Tucker, I don't. We really need to move on from Tucker, like right now. He may be Mr. hustle for 4 straight years but he also has been the captain of our April fishing trip each of those years. I really think that SF is our by far our weakest position. If we do not trade for or draft someone that can play the 3, then either Warren has to become more than just a scorer or Booker needs to get minutes at the 3. Obviously we all hope the Warren is our answer, I am just not convinced.

I expect that the biggest question that any potential head coach has to answer for Ryan is whether or not they can make a back court of Bledsoe and Knight work. If they answer yes, they are a candidate. If they answer no, the interview is over. This is the main reason that Watson is at the top of McDonough's list.

JMO

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