Should the Knicks tank in the '16-'17 season?

AmazingJason · Post #41 » by **AmazingJason** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:43 am

Whoever gets Josh Jackson should look forward to winning a championship in the future.

Blockwatcher · Post #42 » by **Blockwatcher** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:52 am

Capn'O wrote:This thread might be premature.

it will be interesting to see the results now and then again after we strike out in free agency. As it stands with a current 50/50 split 17-17 I am pleased so many are ready to go full rebuild

ctorres · Post #43 » by **ctorres** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:58 am

Knicks were blessed to land a potential great player in Porzingis to go alongside an already great player in Melo.

Tanking at this point is just another way of the front office saying, "we are incapable of using any actual skill to build upon the talent we already have, so let's just rack up some lottery picks and sell it to the fans as rebuilding."

Looking through all the rosters in the league, the only teams with two or three players "better" than Melo & Porzingis IMO are:
Cavs (Lebron, Kyrie, Love)
Warriors (Curry, Klay, Green)
Spurs (Leonard, Aldridge)
Thunder (Durant, Westbrook)
Clippers (CP3, Griffin, Jordan)

The majority of the teams in the league are better than the Knicks because their front office did a better job of building a supporting cast than Phil did. Tanking isn't what builds a good supporting cast, it's creative GM'ing and adequate development by a coaching staff that does.

Wanting to tank is taking for granted that we already have both Melo and KP. Seriously, try bringing up any team besides the 5 that I mentioned, I'm not buying that a single one has a better duo to build upon than Melo and KP.

Tanking? GTFO with that nonsense. :banghead:

seren · Post #44 » by **seren** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:04 am

we should not tank. we should surround KP with young veterans and go from there.

method · Post #45 » by **method** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:16 am

I would be interested in doing what Detroit did....but they started with a bunch of young pieces to begin with.

Wonderllama · Post #46 » by **Wonderllama** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:55 am

Yes, I want the Knicks to tank. For *one* more season.

We tank hard, get the best pick we can, pray we hit another home run, and after that, we sign free agents and keep making playoff pushes. If we fail, at least we have our pick. That's how normal teams gradually get better.

Melo can suck it. He is a detriment to the team as far as I'm concerned. We are stuck in the mud with him on the roster. We will never move forward if he stays.

I didn't imagine trading the 2016 pick could be so devastating. THIS should have been our tank year, getting the young player to pair up with Porzingis. Now we gotta waste another year.

Marty McFly · Post #47 » by **Marty McFly** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:50 am

malik959 wrote:We are are in a very good position where we just need a few pieces to go with what we have but people are so quick to say we can do better through the draft.

a few pieces he says. save the crapshooting for the tanking process you constantly deride. elaborate on these "few pieces".

Yeah the only team out there that has been truly successful from the draft is GS oh and sort of Cleveland with LBJ.

horse ****.

All the others are no greater than 6th seed After rebuilding through the draft. Teams like Philly, Sac town, Denver, and Orlando will forever be in the Lotto with nothing to show for.

more nonsense. what in the blue ****, do those teams have to do with us? please explain to me what happened when we tanked last season. I'll wait.

I'd rather stick to the plan and add pieces to what we have. We don't have to spend all we have on this weak FA this year. I'm happy with one year rentals and then go into FA next year with guns blazing.

that's a good approach. you're probably going to need a gun to sign this phantom talent you're alluding to.

Even if we come up with 10to 14th pick in the draft we're still in a great position in a stacked draft inwhich we've seen more all stars go 6-14th over 1–5. We have way more to lose by tanking than we do by winning. More players try to sign with winning franchises (San Antonio) over loses (Brooklyn)

my god. on what planet is a late lotto pick better than a top 5 lotto pick? http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

Now let's say we did over pay for say Batum, he himself along with Melo, Rolo, and KP make us a possible 6th seed team.
Come 2017 we and our draft pick and another free agent like CP3 or even Westbrook then we have a Championship caliber team.

what salary cap are you using to construct this team? show us the math.

Now I'm not saying that this is going to happen but the possibility are there, we just have to be patient and stay positive. I swear any little thing that goes wrong with MY people go on a rampage like OMG we're all going to die we need to blow it up!

you're asking for a treadmill, and you're telling us to be patient and positive. okay. :lol:

Marty McFly · Post #48 » by **Marty McFly** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:56 am

Wonderllama wrote:Yes, I want the Knicks to tank. For *one* more season.

We tank hard, get the best pick we can, pray we hit another home run, and after that, we sign free agents and keep making playoff pushes. If we fail, at least we have our pick. That's how normal teams gradually get better.

Melo can suck it. He is a detriment to the team as far as I'm concerned. We are stuck in the mud with him on the roster. We will never move forward if he stays.

I didn't imagine trading the 2016 pick could be so devastating. THIS should have been our tank year, getting the young player to pair up with Porzingis. Now we gotta waste another year.

that's all I'm asking for. one more year to get another cornerstone, if you're not going to get that cornerstone(durant) in free agency. it's like these mother **** forgot what happened with Pat. 5 years from now, melo is going to be on his way out of the league when porzingis starts reaching his physical prime. it's gonna deja vu all over again, with some of these guys going on about how we need to clear capspace for karl towns.

Adelheid · Post #49 » by **Adelheid** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:25 am

I dont really care if we tank or not...what I want the FO to do is to improve the roster with drafts or crucial players and get a developmental coach, as we are not getting a top-flight coach with an icky roster with what coaches nowadays being fired left and right because of crappy talent.

Nazrmohamed · Post #50 » by **Nazrmohamed** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:55 am

ctorres wrote:Knicks were blessed to land a potential great player in Porzingis to go alongside an already great player in Melo.

Tanking at this point is just another way of the front office saying, "we are incapable of using any actual skill to build upon the talent we already have, so let's just rack up some lottery picks and sell it to the fans as rebuilding."

Looking through all the rosters in the league, the only teams with two or three players "better" than Melo & Porzingis IMO are:
Cavs (Lebron, Kyrie, Love)
Warriors (Curry, Klay, Green)
Spurs (Leonard, Aldridge)
Thunder (Durant, Westbrook)
Clippers (CP3, Griffin, Jordan)

The majority of the teams in the league are better than the Knicks because their front office did a better job of building a supporting cast than Phil did. Tanking isn't what builds a good supporting cast, it's creative GM'ing and adequate development by a coaching staff that does.

Wanting to tank is taking for granted that we already have both Melo and KP. Seriously, try bringing up any team besides the 5 that I mentioned, I'm not buying that a single one has a better duo to build upon than Melo and KP.

Tanking? GTFO with that nonsense.

I don't know what you're watching. Every single team in the playoffs has a tandem better than ours or else wed be exactly where they are, and its not even like we just missed it. With Melo alone you can say maybe he's better than some guys and its about 5 guys, not 1. But once you get to a tandem you're talking 2/5th of your starting five, it don't take much to rank talents and see we're nowhere close to most tandems. Porzingis is nothing more than a prospect at this point, an exciting one but still a prospect. He had long stretches of cold or poor play, hit walls, despite being known as a shooter doesn't have the best percentages and just stated his goal was to get to 240 at 7'1. He's a child, and while I say all this I love where he is right now and love his potential. But youre talking about a tandem that is two years away. 2 yrs away from Melo breaking down and 2 yrs away from KP being a consistent go to player.

Now, I am not against trying to win now. One of the pros were that KP would develop the right way. Leonard comes to mind and no Im not comparing anything about their games, Im just saying the model of how he was developed. The guy is awesome and essentially played like a role player on a winning team and now they're handing the team to him. Not your typical route of high usage on a bad team development model, which is what Im assuming you're trying to avoid.

So you wanna win, ok how? Who actually wants to be here that you know of? I actually am starting to believe that we have just about as much chance as a team in Minnesota or Vancouver. So building through the draft is the only way of sort of forcing people to play with us. Nobody goes to Utah, they just draft their entire roster and keep guys. Its also the best way to build a deep and solid all around team. For one second lets imagine a world where KP is a solid but not franchise player. Why, cause we draft one true lotto player in years he's gonna be the guaranteed future star of the franchise? He could be an awesome number 2. The Wolves thought Wiggins was the future of the team, now its Towns......yet Wiggins is still a future great player still on the team. My point is theres nothing wrong with more. More youth, more draft picks. A true stockpile.

I love Melo but I just don't think we'll attract the type of talent he really needs to win. Not with Rambis as our future head coach, our record and this triangle.

MR IB4TL · Post #51 » by **MR IB4TL** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:01 am

You should never look to tank - especially before a month or two of a season has a chance to play to itself out.

malik959 · Post #52 » by **malik959** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:10 am

Marty McFly wrote:
malik959 wrote:We are are in a very good position where we just need a few pieces to go with what we have but people are so quick to say we can do better through the draft.
a few pieces he says. save the crapshooting for the tanking process you constantly deride. elaborate on these "few pieces".

Yeah the only team out there that has been truly successful from the draft is GS oh and sort of Cleveland with LBJ.
horse ****.

All the others are no greater than 6th seed After rebuilding through the draft. Teams like Philly, Sac town, Denver, and Orlando will forever be in the Lotto with nothing to show for.
more nonsense. what in the blue ****, do those teams have to do with us? please explain to me what happened when we tanked last season. I'll wait.
I'd rather stick to the plan and add pieces to what we have. We don't have to spend all we have on this weak FA this year. I'm happy with one year rentals and then go into FA next year with guns blazing.
that's a good approach. you're probably going to need a gun to sign this phantom talent you're alluding to.

Even if we come up with 10to 14th pick in the draft we're still in a great position in a stacked draft inwhich we've seen more all stars go 6-14th over 1–5. We have way more to lose by tanking than we do by winning. More players try to sign with winning franchises (San Antonio) over loses (Brooklyn)
my god. on what planet is a late lotto pick better than a top 5 lotto pick? http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm

Now let's say we did over pay for say Batum, he himself along with Melo, Rolo, and KP make us a possible 6th seed team.
Come 2017 we and our draft pick and another free agent like CP3 or even Westbrook then we have a Championship caliber team.
what salary cap are you using to construct this team? show us the math.

Now I'm not saying that this is going to happen but the possibility are there, we just have to be patient and stay positive. I swear any little thing that goes wrong with MY people go on a rampage like OMG we're all going to die we need to blow it up!
you're asking for a treadmill, and you're telling us to be patient and positive. okay.

And I will continue to deride tanking because you want players to purposely lose to get a draft pick which is just dumb. No player joins a team and says hey I'm going to play my worst so that my team can get a pick.
Our team has been hurting because our starting guards were the worst. We ARE in a position can replace them and no it does not have to be a star that fills either position, would it be nice to get one? Helz yeah but its not truly needed.
Name five team, that built through the draft, can compete for a title right now.
Now I didn't say it was better to be at 6-14 over 1-5, just that you can still get a star. Players like Noah, B. Lopez and Rolo, DeRozen, PG, Klay Thompson, K. Lenard, D. Lillard, H. Barnes, and A. Drummond weren't top 5 picks.

NYKnicksTAPE · Post #53 » by **NYKnicksTAPE** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:40 am

Damn, #TeamTank is in the lead right now...somebody hit Phil up in his Twitter DM's with a link to this page

TrueWarrior · Post #54 » by **TrueWarrior** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:40 am

What "tanking" means to me is just building around KP instead of Melo, and then hopefully Melo gets the hint (or better yet we straight up tell him we're changing direction) and he bolts. The tank will take care of itself then. We may not be the worst team in the league, but we'll be bad enough to get a top 5-7 pick like the last two years. In a better, guard/wing heavy, draft that will still get us a top prospect who should fit along KP perfectly.

Basically just go young. Maybe sign/trade for some young FAs if we can, but no crazy overpays. Sign a few cheap vets to ease the transition (which the Sixers took too long to do, but the Wolves did). Start collecting assets and picks. Don't deliberately suck ass, but no pandering to Melo AT ALL if he stays. We have to completely give up on Melo's window because, outside of signing Steph, this team isn't winning anything with him. If he has a problem with that he can leave.

So if we're going to be mediocre, which we will be no matter what we do this offseason, we may as well be young and flexible. If all goes to plan we add another blue chip rook in 2017, along with having a young/cheap supporting cast that we've built, and KP attracts a star FA or two in the next few years as he hits his prime (or we use our assets to trade for them). It's not going to be an overnight thing, but it's what needs to be done.

Many teams with "winning environments" have gotten stomped in the playoffs so far. Portland, Dallas, Memphis, Charlotte, Toronto, & Houston. Other teams like Boston and Detroit played tough, but are clearly not close to contenders. You guys want that? Our "winning environment" of 3 straight post-season appearances didn't do jack. I'm not interested in being 1st/2nd round fodder again. Talent wins rings.

CJackson · Post #55 » by **CJackson** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:46 am

MR IB4TL wrote:You should never look to tank - especially before a month or two of a season has a chance to play to itself out.

where does this NEVER come from? many of the greatest teams of all time tanked first and then landed their franchise player or their # 2. Never? malarkey

CJackson · Post #56 » by **CJackson** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:47 am

TrueWarrior wrote:What "tanking" means to me is just building around KP instead of Melo. The tank will take care of itself. We may not be the worst team in the league, but we'll be bad enough to get a top 7 pick like this year. In a better, guard/wing heavy, draft that will get us a top prospect who should fit along KP perfectly.

Basically just go young. Maybe sign/trade for some young FAs if we can, but no crazy overpays. Start collecting assets and picks. Don't deliberately suck ass, but no pandering to Melo AT ALL. We have to completely give up on Melo's window because, outside of signing Steph, this team isn't winning anything with him. If he has a problem with that he can leave.

So if we're going to be mediocre, which we will be no matter what we do this offseason, we may as well be young and flexible. If all goes to plan we add another blue chip rook in 2017, along with a young/cheap supporting cast that we've built, and KP attracts some FAs in the next few years as he hits his prime.

Many teams with "winning environments" have gotten stomped in the playoffs so far. Portland, Dallas, Memphis, Charlotte, Toronto, & Houston. Talent wins.

Yes. thank you. a simple statement but a needed one

for every post that cries bloody murder at the idea of trading melo one has to ask how bad would it be to keep adding players around kp as he grows into his man game?

what is so awful about that?

HINT: nothing

Post #57 » by **Boss_** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:33 am

GONYK wrote:
Jeffrey wrote:
CluelessJackson wrote:if you can get first round picks for melo and for lopez and stockpile 3-4 first round picks for a super draft, then hell yes

Any picks you have in mind? Melo can still net us a top 5 pick.

From who?

Find another team thats like the knicks and always go all in for a player that will sell jerseys/tickets and give hope for 8th seed, but will most likely stink anyway. Unprotected first rounders.

Nets. Theyll stink with Melo real bad as well anyway. Plus melo might say yes since another ny team?

DaGawd · Post #58 » by **DaGawd** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:38 am

Boss_ wrote:
GONYK wrote:
Jeffrey wrote:
Any picks you have in mind? Melo can still net us a top 5 pick.

From who?

Find another team thats like the knicks and always go all in for a player that will sell jerseys/tickets and give hope for 8th seed, but will most likely stink anyway. Unprotected first rounders.

Nets. Theyll stink with Melo real bad as well anyway. Plus melo might say yes since another ny team?

It's too bad we can't get any picks from the Nets. Boston owns em

Ray Williams · Post #59 » by **Ray Williams** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:12 am

It's worked so well for the sixers...

ozwizard8 · Post #60 » by **ozwizard8** » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:54 pm

MR IB4TL wrote:You should never look to tank - especially before a month or two of a season has a chance to play to itself out.

If we decide tanking now we can trade melo for picks.
We can sign some young guys in FA rather than veterans.

Tanking after 2 months doesnt sound realistic. Fisher sucked so bad in his first year but now we already have rolo-kp-melo.
We cant tank after a 10-15 start. This year we were close to .500 .

Tanking after 2 months may become possible if we trade melo for picks.
After trading melo we can give our team a shot. If KP and other guys play like Portland team great we wont tank. If they end up like M.Bucks or sth then we may trade RoLo too and officially tank.

Anyway i think we should trade our assets for picks or young players.
Getting late 1st rounders for 1 year dead salaries are also fine.

Should the Knicks tank '16-'17?