Thank Nation! Pre-Lottery: Denver 9th, NY pick 7th (PART 4)

[super_balls]

Just a thought.. not sure if it is possible or not but how would a Cousins/Valanciunas front court look like?

*I think it could work especially if Valanciunas slims down more. Dude is so long, if he was a little lighter on his feet.. I think he could do some real damage defensively.

[Young_Buc]

Moving up for Jamal Murray just became a very real possibility.

Why now? Did I miss something?

[Treadmill_Team]

As Derozan continues to struggle, do we start to look into drafting a wing? If Murray is available I think it's a no brainier. Jalyen Brown is thinking about returning to school, but if he doesn't I think he's worth the 9th pick.

[HeatedEnd]

I don't think you can replace derozan with a draft pick, if you are expecting immediate results. The draft should be best player available, depending on the youth you already have developing. Drafting, expecting the rookie to produce as a starter, even within the first 2 years is unrealistic unless you have a top 3/5 pick.

[Red_Claw]

I don't think you can replace derozan with a draft pick, if you are expecting immediate results. The draft should be best player available, depending on the youth you already have developing. Drafting, expecting the rookie to produce as a starter, even within the first 2 years is unrealistic unless you have a top 3/5 pick.

Its not a replacement 1 for 1. If we part with Derozan and are able to draft Murray, the SG position is Powell, Ross, Murray. Im very happy with that. As for drafting the BPA, if somehow were able to draft Murray at 9, you better believe Murray is the best player at that point. I think Murray is the 5th or 6th best player in the draft so we'll have to move up though.

[HeatedEnd]

I'm just saying that drafting Murray (per-say) in hopes that he will eventually fill in Derozan's role is doing it wrong cause who knows what the team structure will be by the time Murray is ready. I'm not making an argument one way or another about Murray's draft position cause I don't know nor particularly care that much at this point.

In this particular case, I agree that the current team has players to fill in at starting SG (Powell or Ross), even at a slightly reduced general value (debatable i know but regular season value, Derozan at some level still produces as a top 10 sg in the league). Then, yes BPA may by Murray.

[Dalek]

I feel like many people here are picking based on need when we should only look look at BPA and upside. In some ways you could look at our like a Least Holes Approach. A guy like Timothe Luwawu or Demetrius Jackson are guys that will do well in the NBA and have long careers because they can shoot, are athletic and can likely defend their position. So what if it duplicates what we have already?

When you get into the PF draft market there are so many question marks about size, skill, and fit into the modern NBA. The guys that can shoot leave a huge hole on defense. Do you really want a guy like Ryan Anderson? (Ellenson) Or do you want a defender at PF that can't shoot or create in the post? (Davis). Other guys are huge projects that are undersized (Chriss, Rabb, Bentil) or have some mental make-up issues (Skal).

Well said. I feel the same way.

I'm fine with Masai taking a PF, but at this point I don't honestly think any of them are BPA. Of course there are lots of workouts & measurements to be done that will change a lot of perceptions.

I would love for us to have a great PF fall in our lap, but honestly this draft look unimpressive outside the top two. It also lacks big wings that look interesting. I am not adverse to developing a guy, but we should move Bebe into a back-up role or trade him. That way we can use our D-League spot well.

[Red_Claw]

I'm just saying that drafting Murray (per-say) in hopes that he will eventually fill in Derozan's role is doing it wrong cause who knows what the team structure will be by the time Murray is ready. I'm not making an argument one way or another about Murray's draft position cause I don't know nor particularly care that much at this point.

In this particular case, I agree that the current team has players to fill in at starting SG (Powell or Ross), even at a slightly reduced general value (debatable i know but regular season value, Derozan at some level still produces as a top 10 sg in the league). Then, yes BPA may by Murray.

I dont disagree with anything your saying but just to add to your point, If we lose Derozan and his near 24 pts/per game, the team structure we'll need to change alot.

JV has proven he can take on more scoring responsibility
Our PF position has room for much improvement in the offseason
Our young guys are either going to sink or swim
Having Carroll for a full season
Defensively, Losing Derozan might be addition by subtraction

I think losing Derozan won't be as bad as most fans think as long as the structure is changed.

[TheGoodDoctor]

Moving up for Jamal Murray just became a very real possibility.

It's only a real possibility if someone is willing to do a trade with us to move up and get him.

I don't think there was ever a doubt if we would take him if he were available. PF was still a need last year yet we took 2 players that both fell under positions that were perceived to not be a position of need.

[WWSRD]

Moving up for Jamal Murray just became a very real possibility.

It's only a real possibility if someone is willing to do a trade with us to move up and get him.

I don't think there was ever a doubt if we would take him if he were available. PF was still a need last year yet we took 2 players that both fell under positions that were perceived to not be a position of need.

Disagree.

If DD was dropping 27pts/game in this Indy series, he'd be locking in that max.

No team would draft a SG in that situation. 'Hometown' boy or not.

Now, I feel (desperately hope), DD is not coming back.

Now the team is going to have a hole at SG and Jamal Murray makes a lot more sense.

[cammac]

Not thrilled with the 9th pick and yes there is talent their but is it any better than 15th? Think I would trade with Denver for 15th and 19th. Use 15th for Sabonis, Rabb or Chriss and 19th for Valentine, Ullis or Prince and 27th on Hernangomez.

[TheGoodDoctor]

Moving up for Jamal Murray just became a very real possibility.

It's only a real possibility if someone is willing to do a trade with us to move up and get him.

I don't think there was ever a doubt if we would take him if he were available. PF was still a need last year yet we took 2 players that both fell under positions that were perceived to not be a position of need.

Disagree.

If DD was dropping 27pts/game in this Indy series, he'd be locking in that max.

No team would draft a SG in that situation. 'Hometown' boy or not.

Now, I feel (desperately hope), DD is not coming back.

Now the team is going to have a hole at SG and Jamal Murray makes a lot more sense.

To which I disagree....

Lowry was/is our best player, was locked in AND we signed CoJo the same year we drafted Delon with our 1st round pick which completely contradicts your train of thought.

I don't think any intelligent GM passes on drafting a player that they perceive to be clearly superior to the other options available ESPECIALLY when there is no signed extension in place. In fact, he was already looking at Korkmaz BEFORE all of this who projects to be a SG at the next level already given his thin frame and shooting skills. He also drafted Faried when Nene was still considered a good PF, brought in Iggy when Danilo was there...so really I don't see any basis for what you're saying as on that shows on multiple occasions Masai has not been focused on who's starting but rather the potential of the player coming in.

I agree that it increases the likelihood but I highly, highly doubt it "just become" a real possibility. Especially when 1. the vast majority of rookies are not expected to come in and takeover the load of an all star 2. you could easily trade the other current back ups for a young PF of similar potential to these PFs in the draft. IE/ The Lakers didn't pass on Kobe for Eddie Jones, they were already a winning team but traded Divac because of that potential, Jones was already an established as a very good player in the league and Kobe was given minimal minutes in his first couple of years. Murray is obviously no Kobe, which all the more reason why it's not that big of a deal to draft him and have him develop behind DeMar, if you believe in time he'll be an even better player than what DD is.

Most rookies only start nearing their potential by their 3rd or 4th year anyways which would actually fall well in line for when DeRozan's prime will be passing and Masai has said many times he's doing things to make this team competitive now and in the future. Also you're assuming, that Masai is thinking like you and will just let DeMar walk which there has been no indication of, just like I think most people would've preferred we trade Ross or let him walk but we ended up extending for far too much money despite his performance. Masai has yet to make a move actually that falls in line with your theory of him drafting by need.

[WWSRD]

It's only a real possibility if someone is willing to do a trade with us to move up and get him.

I don't think there was ever a doubt if we would take him if he were available. PF was still a need last year yet we took 2 players that both fell under positions that were perceived to not be a position of need.

Disagree.

If DD was dropping 27pts/game in this Indy series, he'd be locking in that max.

No team would draft a SG in that situation. 'Hometown' boy or not.

Now, I feel (desperately hope), DD is not coming back.

Now the team is going to have a hole at SG and Jamal Murray makes a lot more sense.

To which I disagree....

Lowry was/is our best player, was locked in AND we signed CoJo the same year we drafted Delon with our 1st round pick which completely contradicts your train of thought.

I don't think any intelligent GM passes on drafting a player that they perceive to be clearly superior to the other options available ESPECIALLY when there is no signed extension in place. In fact, he was already looking at Korkmaz BEFORE all of this who projects to be a SG at the next level already given his thin frame and shooting skills. He also drafted Faried when Nene was still considered a good PF, brought in Iggy when Danilo was there...so really I don't see any basis for what you're saying as on that shows on multiple occasions Masai has not been focused on who's starting but rather the potential of the player coming in.

I agree that it increases the likelihood but I highly, highly doubt it "just become" a real possibility. Especially when 1. the vast majority of rookies are not expected to come in and takeover the load of an all star 2. you could easily trade the other current back ups for a young PF of similar potential to these PFs in the draft. IE/ The Lakers didn't pass on Kobe for Eddie Jones, they were already a winning team but traded Divac because of that potential, Jones was already an established as a very good player in the league and Kobe was given minimal minutes in his first couple of years. Murray is obviously no Kobe, which all the more reason why it's not that big of a deal to draft him and have him develop behind DeMar, if you believe in time he'll be an even better player than what DD is.

Most rookies only start nearing their potential by their 3rd or 4th year anyways which would actually fall well in line for when DeRozan's prime will be passing and Masai has said many times he's doing things to make this team competitive now and in the future. Also you're assuming, that Masai is thinking like you and will just let DeMar walk which there has been no indication of, just like I think most people would've preferred we trade Ross or let him walk but we ended up extending for far too much money. Masai has yet to make a move actually that falls in line with your theory of him drafting by need.

Good post. Your logic is sound.

Couple things:

I'm not as high on Jamal Murray as you are. Might just be due to my lack of information. I don't watch college ball until the Tourney.

So, even if he fell to 9, it's not a no-brainer to me that he's BPA.

Yes, I'm assuming (praying) Masai is watching these playoffs and completely ruling out re-signing DeRozan. If he doesn't feel that way, then I think Masai should be fired before that contract is printed.

Let's say DeRozan comes back *barfs in mouth* , with a prospect the level of Murray, you need minutes for him. He's not a project like Labissiere. He's a top 10 pick who was the MAN in college, there are expectations from him and his agent. I don't think it's realistic to think you can send him to the D-League for a year like a low 1st or second rounder.

[TheGoodDoctor]

Good post. Your logic is sound.

Couple things:

I'm not as high on Jamal Murray as you are. Might just be due to my lack of information. I don't watch college ball until the Tourney.

So, even if he fell to 9, it's not a no-brainer to me that he's BPA.

Yes, I'm assuming (praying) Masai is watching these playoffs and completely ruling out re-signing DeRozan. If he doesn't feel that way, then I think Masai should be fired before that contract is printed.

Let's say DeRozan comes back *barfs in mouth* , with a prospect the level of Murray, you need minutes for him. He's not a project like Labissiere. He's a top 10 pick who was the MAN in college, there are expectations from him and his agent. I don't think it's realistic to think you can send him to the D-League for a year like a low 1st or second rounder.

I agree with you there.

But I don't think he would be sent to the D-League either. I think more likely, one of Powell or Ross (far more likely) being moved to open up some space and minutes. Also what him and his agent want have no bearing as a rookie. There is nothing to negotiate here, he's a rookie...he'll get the time the team says he gets as did McGrady, as did Kobe. Sure they were out of highschool but Murray is only a year older, even in their second years they were not getting big minutes. Not to mention JM appears to be a high character guy so I highly doubt he's going to create a stink about not being the man in his first year especially for the team he grew up watching and cheering for.

If anything too it gives Masai an easy excuse for trading Ross to "address other needs" on the roster which makes for a better story to another franchise than he sucks and Powell is more than sufficient. In fact drafting Murray in way makes a ton of sense to the franchise overall.

1. Makes Ross shooting expendable with Murray and allows Powell to take on a greater role
2. Powell and Murray (combined) would be less expensive than Ross and both can end up superior players
3. Ross can be traded for someone like Gibson for extra PF depth with Scola likely otw out and to act as expiring next year to help handle impending contracts of Kyle and DeMar
4. Of course, raising a hometown hero and riding (the unwarranted) hype Cal said of being Curry like (far more like Klay in reality offensively)

In no way am I saying Murray is a slam dunk to be better than any of the PFs on the board because there's always a player that shocks everyone but take a look at the wing prospects that have come out the past several years. VERY few wing players actually averaged more than 20+ppg in their 1st year especially from a big time school like Kentucky. I'm glad you understand what I was getting at because really I don't see how Masai would only now start considering Murray especially when he has no past history that indicates that and when Murray by all means appears to be a very good prospect.

[WWSRD]

Good post. Your logic is sound.

Couple things:

I'm not as high on Jamal Murray as you are. Might just be due to my lack of information. I don't watch college ball until the Tourney.

So, even if he fell to 9, it's not a no-brainer to me that he's BPA.

Yes, I'm assuming (praying) Masai is watching these playoffs and completely ruling out re-signing DeRozan. If he doesn't feel that way, then I think Masai should be fired before that contract is printed.

Let's say DeRozan comes back *barfs in mouth* , with a prospect the level of Murray, you need minutes for him. He's not a project like Labissiere. He's a top 10 pick who was the MAN in college, there are expectations from him and his agent. I don't think it's realistic to think you can send him to the D-League for a year like a low 1st or second rounder.

I agree with you there.

But I don't think he would be sent to the D-League either. I think more likely, one of Powell or Ross (far more likely) being moved to open up some space and minutes. Also what him and his agent want have no bearing as a rookie. There is nothing to negotiate here, he's a rookie...he'll get the time the team says he gets as did McGrady, as did Kobe. Sure they were out of highschool but Murray is only a year older, even in their second years they were not getting big minutes. Not to mention JM appears to be a high character guy so I highly doubt he's going to create a stink about not being the man in his first year especially for the team he grew up watching and cheering for.

If anything too it gives Masai an easy excuse for trading Ross to "address other needs" on the roster which makes for a better story to another franchise than he sucks and Powell is more than sufficient. In fact drafting Murray in way makes a ton of sense to the franchise overall.

1. Makes Ross shooting expendable with Murray and allows Powell to take on a greater role
2. Powell and Murray (combined) would be less expensive than Ross and both can end up superior players
3. Ross can be traded for someone like Gibson for extra PF depth with Scola likely otw out and to act as expiring next year to help handle impending contracts of Kyle and DeMar
4. Of course, raising a hometown hero and riding (the unwarranted) hype Cal said of being Curry like (far more like Klay in reality offensively)

In no way am I saying Murray is a slam dunk to be better than any of the PFs on the board because there's always a player that shocks everyone but take a look at the wing prospects that have come out the past several years. VERY few wing players actually averaged more than 20+ppg in their 1st year especially from a big time school like Kentucky. I'm glad you understand what I was getting at because really I don't see how Masai would only now start considering Murray especially when he has no past history that indicates that and when Murray by all means appears to be a very good prospect.

Given how high you are on JM, and I'm starting to buy into it, I guess my big issue comes back to Demar.

How long until Murray is better than Demar? 2 years?

Then you have another 3years of max Demar with a guy behind him that should be playing ahead of him AND Powell, who, I think, will be a better pro very soon as well.


Even now, with Demar, Ross and Powell....there's a logjam. Swapping Ross for a better player in Murray will just make it worse.

Murray might be better than Ross right now, so, I don't see, even in that first year, not feeding Murray at least 20minutes.

[TheGoodDoctor]

Good post. Your logic is sound.

Couple things:

I'm not as high on Jamal Murray as you are. Might just be due to my lack of information. I don't watch college ball until the Tourney.

So, even if he fell to 9, it's not a no-brainer to me that he's BPA.

Yes, I'm assuming (praying) Masai is watching these playoffs and completely ruling out re-signing DeRozan. If he doesn't feel that way, then I think Masai should be fired before that contract is printed.

Let's say DeRozan comes back *barfs in mouth* , with a prospect the level of Murray, you need minutes for him. He's not a project like Labissiere. He's a top 10 pick who was the MAN in college, there are expectations from him and his agent. I don't think it's realistic to think you can send him to the D-League for a year like a low 1st or second rounder.

I agree with you there.

But I don't think he would be sent to the D-League either. I think more likely, one of Powell or Ross (far more likely) being moved to open up some space and minutes. Also what him and his agent want have no bearing as a rookie. There is nothing to negotiate here, he's a rookie...he'll get the time the team says he gets as did McGrady, as did Kobe. Sure they were out of highschool but Murray is only a year older, even in their second years they were not getting big minutes. Not to mention JM appears to be a high character guy so I highly doubt he's going to create a stink about not being the man in his first year especially for the team he grew up watching and cheering for.

If anything too it gives Masai an easy excuse for trading Ross to "address other needs" on the roster which makes for a better story to another franchise than he sucks and Powell is more than sufficient. In fact drafting Murray in way makes a ton of sense to the franchise overall.

1. Makes Ross shooting expendable with Murray and allows Powell to take on a greater role
2. Powell and Murray (combined) would be less expensive than Ross and both can end up superior players
3. Ross can be traded for someone like Gibson for extra PF depth with Scola likely otw out and to act as expiring next year to help handle impending contracts of Kyle and DeMar
4. Of course, raising a hometown hero and riding (the unwarranted) hype Cal said of being Curry like (far more like Klay in reality offensively)

In no way am I saying Murray is a slam dunk to be better than any of the PFs on the board because there's always a player that shocks everyone but take a look at the wing prospects that have come out the past several years. VERY few wing players actually averaged more than 20+ppg in their 1st year especially from a big time school like Kentucky. I'm glad you understand what I was getting at because really I don't see how Masai would only now start considering Murray especially when he has no past history that indicates that and when Murray by all means appears to be a very good prospect.

Given how high you are on JM, and I'm starting to buy into it, I guess my big issue comes back to Demar.

How long until Murray is better than Demar? 2 years?

Then you have another 3years of max Demar with a guy behind him that should be playing ahead of him AND Powell, who, I think, will be a better pro very soon as well.


Even now, with Demar, Ross and Powell....there's a logjam. Swapping Ross for a better player in Murray will just make it worse.

Murray might be better than Ross right now, so, I don't see, even in that first year, not feeding Murray at least 20minutes.

Well Powell has shown the ability to play some SF and again trades...

I think it would be more likely 3 years than 2 as he won't likely be ready to average 23+ppg that quickly, Carroll would be done, Lowry likely not too far behind and people can hate on DeMar all they want but there will be a market for a multiple time all-star. Hell Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay were able to find another home. By that time Val is in his prime with Powell and Wright pretty much there too and Murray would be blossoming by then as well. Not a hard sell to tell other GMs we're focusing on this group of guys and wanted them to come to the forefront so we're seeing what's available for DeMar. Given what Masai has gotten for Melo, Bargnani, Gay and Vasquez...I'd welcome seeing what he would get for DeMar in 2-3 years time. In the mean time we retain great depth on 50+W roster as they develop.

Also I'm not saying I'm 100% sold on Murray to be clear. But I do feel more confident in him than any of the PFs projected to be at our pick. Murray imo could also bust out to be OJ Mayo but I was pointing out that I don't think our roster acts as any hinderance in considering him when he is a very viable option and Masai has no history of drafting based on need. Personally I would absolutely take that gamble on him over the PFs that seem far more likely to bust than a freshman averaging more than 20ppg (again a rarity amongst wing prospects when you look at the past few years - even Ingram doesn't and arguably had less talent around to eat up shots) but really I don't think ANY player in this draft that is a slam dunk to be a star but I do like his odds more than many others.

[deeps6x]

Disagree.

If DD was dropping 27pts/game in this Indy series, he'd be locking in that max.

No team would draft a SG in that situation. 'Hometown' boy or not.

Now, I feel (desperately hope), DD is not coming back.

Now the team is going to have a hole at SG and Jamal Murray makes a lot more sense.

To which I disagree....

Lowry was/is our best player, was locked in AND we signed CoJo the same year we drafted Delon with our 1st round pick which completely contradicts your train of thought.

I don't think any intelligent GM passes on drafting a player that they perceive to be clearly superior to the other options available ESPECIALLY when there is no signed extension in place. In fact, he was already looking at Korkmaz BEFORE all of this who projects to be a SG at the next level already given his thin frame and shooting skills. He also drafted Faried when Nene was still considered a good PF, brought in Iggy when Danilo was there...so really I don't see any basis for what you're saying as on that shows on multiple occasions Masai has not been focused on who's starting but rather the potential of the player coming in.

I agree that it increases the likelihood but I highly, highly doubt it "just become" a real possibility. Especially when 1. the vast majority of rookies are not expected to come in and takeover the load of an all star 2. you could easily trade the other current back ups for a young PF of similar potential to these PFs in the draft. IE/ The Lakers didn't pass on Kobe for Eddie Jones, they were already a winning team but traded Divac because of that potential, Jones was already an established as a very good player in the league and Kobe was given minimal minutes in his first couple of years. Murray is obviously no Kobe, which all the more reason why it's not that big of a deal to draft him and have him develop behind DeMar, if you believe in time he'll be an even better player than what DD is.

Most rookies only start nearing their potential by their 3rd or 4th year anyways which would actually fall well in line for when DeRozan's prime will be passing and Masai has said many times he's doing things to make this team competitive now and in the future. Also you're assuming, that Masai is thinking like you and will just let DeMar walk which there has been no indication of, just like I think most people would've preferred we trade Ross or let him walk but we ended up extending for far too much money. Masai has yet to make a move actually that falls in line with your theory of him drafting by need.

Good post. Your logic is sound.

Couple things:

I'm not as high on Jamal Murray as you are. Might just be due to my lack of information. I don't watch college ball until the Tourney.

So, even if he fell to 9, it's not a no-brainer to me that he's BPA.

Yes, I'm assuming (praying) Masai is watching these playoffs and completely ruling out re-signing DeRozan. If he doesn't feel that way, then I think Masai should be fired before that contract is printed.

Let's say DeRozan comes back *barfs in mouth* , with a prospect the level of Murray, you need minutes for him. He's not a project like Labissiere. He's a top 10 pick who was the MAN in college, there are expectations from him and his agent. I don't think it's realistic to think you can send him to the D-League for a year like a low 1st or second rounder.

Can I chip in with a couple thoughts? About the 3rd to 4th year comment. Yes, most rookies don't reach their potential until their 3rd to 4th years, but most rookies are drafted at 19 or 20, so it isn't surprising to see them keep improving until they are 24 years old. Draft a couple of good looking seniors out of college and you have a good chunk of their prime years under contract on the cheap. It is a risk, as younger kids with nothing more than potential could get drafted ahead of you and make your picks look like trash a few years later. But for now, it appears that Masai got lucky and drafted a couple seniors that will also be great players, in Wright and Powell.

Murray. No, no way in hell is he the BPA. Hield, Valentine, and several others smoke him on O and even on D. But he does have potential in spades. If you compare his current first year of college stats to Hield's or Valentine's, Murray is the one that smokes the other two. Now, there is no guarantee that Murray will make the leap each year that Valentine was making, or that Hield made this last season, but if he does, 4 years from now there is a chance (well a slim chance) that we could be telling ourselves if we redid the 2016 draft, Murray should have gone first. We might also be saying he should have gone 12th. Nobody knows. Tons of kids have the kind of stats Murray put up in his first college season and never are able to add anything to their game. Heck, the league only drafts 60 players out of the 1000ish at the college level around the world. If you are one of the lucky few, that doesn't guarantee that you keep improving, but it does guarantee you that a pro team will use all of it's resources to help develop you to the best of it's ability. Often it does take a year or more for the team that drafts you to be able to definitively decide if you are a keeper, or if you should be trades while you are still perceived to have some potential. Sometimes teams are right, sometimes they are wrong. Lamb got traded pretty quickly. Noah Vonleah lasted a year in Charlotte, and he was a 9th pick in 2014. Didn't make a leap there, still hasn't in Portland a year later. Maybe never does. Dion Waiters, picked 4th in 2012, still looks like crap 4 years later. He just turned 24. Unlike you, I did watch college ball a lot this season. The Wildcats and Spartans were my fav teams, so I'm very familiar with Murray. He is poorer than Hield at almost all measurable categories. But he also has 3 years to catch up to him. I'm thinking in 2 years, he is better than this season's version of Hield. I project Murray to make a very good hybrid SG/PG type of player. I think he will have better O than CoJo does now within a year. He will be a better outside shooter immediately. His passing is better than his stats in college show, but that is because Ulis was just amazing. Ulis is what you get if you shrink CP3 down a couple sizes to 5'9" and 155lbs. The very best PG in college on O, and a fast pest on D. So yeah, Kentucky just HAD to put the ball in Ulis' hands all the time. Murray recognized this, but still managed to get 2-3 assists per 40. A better rate than Hield who is 3 years older and who had the ball in HIS hands all the time. In short, Murray should go just ahead of Hield, but won't look better for at least 2 years, if ever.

Do I want to trade up for that? Yes.

Would I want to do it even if we were resigning DD this summer? A week ago I was assuming we were. So still yes. I was also assuming DD would be traded between Dec and Feb for some picks and expiring contracts. I was also assuming Kyle would be dealt in this window as well.

Murray has the potential to become our next starting PG or our next starting SG. Well, let me rephrase that. Our future starting SG or PG. He couldn't possibly take over for DD or Kyle in his first season, but maybe by his third(?).

I do disagree about your Masai should be fired comment if he resigns DD. I'm fine with him resigning DD. I expect DD to improve one more season at least. Perhaps get a little more consistent on his 3 point shot, a little better at passing (to JV) and perhaps get a little more positional awareness on D. But in my books, that still doesn't put him on par with KD, LBJ, Westbrook, Curry, Draymond, Butler, (and 15 others who should make more). I don't care that through a fluke of timing that he will be the 3rd most sought after player this summer. I do believe that which ever team signs him to a full mid-max deal will almost instantly regret it. DD is a product of his system. Our players know how to rotate to cover off his defensive flaws. Our coach gives him free reign for chucking and creating his own O. Our players don't bitch and whine too much because 'he has been here the longest' and 'this is still his team' 'blah blah blah'. Lowry gets the same coaching leeway and respect from the other players.

When DD goes somewhere else, he will have that initial respect from players and management. But he won't have the ability to chuck at will from his new coach. His new team mates won't be happy giving up a third of the shot attempts to him, especially if he starts out chucking inefficiently. His new team won't be used to rotating to cover for him on D. His new coach will start hating on him, his team mates will start hating on him, and his stats will also be lower, so the fans will start hating on him. And he won't have Lowry (a top 6 PG) feeding him and drawing away defenders.

As I see it, DD would have to be a little nuts to want to leave Toronto this summer. But nuts can be trumped if there is enough extra money offered.

Masai, would be doing long term harm to the team if he mid-maxed DD. We can agree on that.

But I don't see Masai making a mid-max offer. I think he come in with a $19M to $21M flat rate four year offer. That would make DD a positive value contract for the full four years. Something the team definitely needs. Ross was signed to his flat rate deal with the same intent. To make him a positive value contract for the full duration. It looked horrible for a few months, but I think Ross will already be looked at as a positive contract this summer, when some other non-stars start getting close to max money.

If we get DD on a cheap deal, should that prevent us from trying to trade up to get Murray? I don't think so. There should always be a spot for a great player that can be great at multiple positions. CoJo gets time because he can be a PG or SG. Ross can be a SG or SF. Powell can be a SF or SG. Carroll can (theoretically at least) be a SF or PF. I would 100% add Murray to the mix this summer if possible, and worry about spots in a couple years when he is 90% developed as a player. He is about 60% right now.

Plus, it might just take Ross or 2Pat to move up 5 spots. In this case, that would be a tough call to make. 2Pat is more valuable, but only for a single season. Ross will be a valuable contributor and trade chip for the duration of his new contract. We have a Ross replacement in Powell already in the pipeline. We don't have anything decent to replace 2Pat.

Which would you rather give up to move from #9 to #5 (or #4?) No matter which player you throw in to move up, the team is worse next season because of it. Whatever Murray can add will be less than what goes out the door. This would be a long term thinking, potentially (yes, only potentially) positive move.

I can tell you one thing, I'd like the Murray addition a hell of a lot more than adding Rabb or Davis. If we can't move up for Murray, I'd consider trading down with Denver for #15 and #19, picking a PF at #15, and trading #19 to a team on the cusp of the lottery. Maybe to Dallas for their pick next season (with a pick swap option). That could get us a higher pick in a better draft. Again, a decent long term thinking move, but not necessarily a popular one this summer.

[deeps6x]

Well Powell has shown the ability to play some SF and again trades...

I think it would be more likely 3 years than 2 as he won't likely be ready to average 23+ppg that quickly, Carroll would be done, Lowry likely not too far behind and people can hate on DeMar all they want but there will be a market for a multiple time all-star. Hell Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay were able to find another home. By that time Val is in his prime with Powell and Wright pretty much there too and Murray would be blossoming by then as well. Not a hard sell to tell other GMs we're focusing on this group of guys and wanted them to come to the forefront so we're seeing what's available for DeMar. Given what Masai has gotten for Melo, Bargnani, Gay and Vasquez...I'd welcome seeing what he would get for DeMar in 2-3 years time. In the mean time we retain great depth on 50+W roster as they develop.

Also I'm not saying I'm 100% sold on Murray to be clear. But I do feel more confident in him than any of the PFs projected to be at our pick. Murray imo could also bust out to be OJ Mayo but I was pointing out that I don't think our roster acts as any hinderance in considering him when he is a very viable option and Masai has no history of drafting based on need. Personally I would absolutely take that gamble on him over the PFs that seem far more likely to bust than a freshman averaging more than 20ppg (again a rarity amongst wing prospects when you look at the past few years - even Ingram doesn't and arguably had less talent around to eat up shots) but really I don't think ANY player in this draft that is a slam dunk to be a star but I do like his odds more than many others.

I agree with TheGoodDoctor.

I'd add, what we do in the draft this summer has nothing to do with the two prime years we were setting ourselves up to have with DD and KL this spring and next.

Who we draft here is going to be a complimentary piece to the young core of JV, Powell, Wright, CoJo, Biyombo (hopefully), Bruno (hopefully), and possibly Ross. We need PF/SF talent for the next phase, depending on what we do with Ross and how Bruno develops. But adding Murray, who I think would make a great SG/PG hybrid would also be a positive addition.

Also, as for Melo, he was a prime player at the start of his prime years. He was 27 when the trade went down. DD is 27 this summer as well, but isn't nearly as dominant as Melo was at the same age. Even now, I guarantee you Melo makes more than 4 and 5 shots these past two games if DD and Melo were traded before the playoffs started. Even the great Masai couldn't get a Melo like return for DD. Especially not this summer, when all he can get is S&T cast offs from whatever team takes him. But if Masai signs him for $19 or $20M, then next summer, when the cap jumps again, I'm sure he could find a team with space to absorb his contract and return a couple first round picks. Maybe even late lottery picks. A team like Dallas (this year) or Houston (next year) where they have a single star and won't and even couldn't do a proper tank, but still suck, would jump at the chance to add DD in exchange for a likely 13th and 19th pick. In reality, I think that would be a good haul for him. We'd have two young players to add to the next gen young core mentioned above, AND the cap space to spend on another player (or pay our own players more - 2Pat???).

[TheGoodDoctor]

Also, as for Melo, he was a prime player at the start of his prime years. He was 27 when the trade went down. DD is 27 this summer as well, but isn't nearly as dominant as Melo was at the same age. Even now, I guarantee you Melo makes more than 4 and 5 shots these past two games if DD and Melo were traded before the playoffs started. Even the great Masai couldn't get a Melo like return for DD. Especially not this summer, when all he can get is S&T cast offs from whatever team takes him. But if Masai signs him for $19 or $20M, then next summer, when the cap jumps again, I'm sure he could find a team with space to absorb his contract and return a couple first round picks. Maybe even late lottery picks. A team like Dallas (this year) or Houston (next year) where they have a single star and won't and even couldn't do a proper tank, but still suck, would jump at the chance to add DD in exchange for a likely 13th and 19th pick. In reality, I think that would be a good haul for him. We'd have two young players to add to the next gen young core mentioned above, AND the cap space to spend on another player (or pay our own players more - 2Pat???).

Sorry but you almost have too much to respond to 6 lol...but in regards to this part also keep in mind this is what Masai got when Melo pretty much demanded to go to NY and your also skipping over even Gay and Johnson were able to net decent returns where one was older (JJ) and one was clearly garbage (Gay). He wasn't in any position of power with Melo and still got a ton back. As I mentioned this was also the case for Gay but even more so Bargnani and Vasquez. Not a single one of those 3 were considered desired players in the slightest, Gay and Bargnani were practically labelled as flaming piles of trash.

If the man can get 2 first round picks (one lotto for one of the worst players in the league), 2 second round picks and expirings for all of that...I feel fairly confident that he would net a pretty decent return for a multiple time all-star in his prime who may not be Melo but also isn't able to demand where he goes.

OT I think it's fairly unlikely we get Murray because we would need to move up so what exactly would we package to move up?! Sadly I think Murray is long gone before our pick as I could easily see Minny taking him to pair up with Wiggins and it works for them to move Rubio and he could help LaVine with the ballhandling duties. If not SAC stabs us through the heart as GS did NY with Curry. He's not that good but nonetheless I see that kind of disappointment if he slipped by Minny which I really don't see happening. I read rumours of them liking Hield but Buddy isn't an additional ballhandler that can help Zach.

Murray
LaVine
Wiggins
KAT
Dieng (maybe they get a good young PF or C for Rubio)

Yeeesh...that's a nice young core and they'll still probably be in the lotto at least one more year to add another piece with some good PF and C prospects in next year's draft. Wiggins ain't coming home any time soon is all I can say.

[OAKLEY_2]

Also, as for Melo, he was a prime player at the start of his prime years. He was 27 when the trade went down. DD is 27 this summer as well, but isn't nearly as dominant as Melo was at the same age. Even now, I guarantee you Melo makes more than 4 and 5 shots these past two games if DD and Melo were traded before the playoffs started. Even the great Masai couldn't get a Melo like return for DD. Especially not this summer, when all he can get is S&T cast offs from whatever team takes him. But if Masai signs him for $19 or $20M, then next summer, when the cap jumps again, I'm sure he could find a team with space to absorb his contract and return a couple first round picks. Maybe even late lottery picks. A team like Dallas (this year) or Houston (next year) where they have a single star and won't and even couldn't do a proper tank, but still suck, would jump at the chance to add DD in exchange for a likely 13th and 19th pick. In reality, I think that would be a good haul for him. We'd have two young players to add to the next gen young core mentioned above, AND the cap space to spend on another player (or pay our own players more - 2Pat???).

Sorry but you almost have too much to respond to 6 lol...but in regards to this part also keep in mind this is what Masai got when Melo pretty much demanded to go to NY and your also skipping over even Gay and Johnson were able to net decent returns where one was older (JJ) and one was clearly garbage (Gay). He wasn't in any position of power with Melo and still got a ton back. As I mentioned this was also the case for Gay but even more so Bargnani and Vasquez. Not a single one of those 3 were considered desired players in the slightest, Gay and Bargnani were practically labelled as flaming piles of trash.

If the man can get 2 first round picks (one lotto for one of the worst players in the league), 2 second round picks and expirings for all of that...I feel fairly confident that he would net a pretty decent return for a multiple time all-star in his prime who may not be Melo but also isn't able to demand where he goes.

OT I think it's fairly unlikely we get Murray because we would need to move up so what exactly would we package to move up?! Sadly I think Murray is long gone before our pick as I could easily see Minny taking him to pair up with Wiggins and it works for them to move Rubio and he could help LaVine with the ballhandling duties. If not SAC stabs us through the heart as GS did NY with Curry. He's not that good but nonetheless I see that kind of disappointment if he slipped by Minny which I really don't see happening. I read rumours of them liking Hield but Buddy isn't an additional ballhandler that can help Zach.

Murray
LaVine
Wiggins
KAT
Dieng (maybe they get a good young PF or C for Rubio)

Yeeesh...that's a nice young core and they'll still probably be in the lotto at least one more year to add another piece with some good PF and C prospects in next year's draft. Wiggins ain't coming home any time soon is all I can say.

Call me crazy but in this draft I think Sabonis is going to be in play at or near 9. Whether we make that happen is another story. I highly doubt we pick any guards. If anything Masai will be hedging against a Bismack departure not a Derozan exit. Watch us trade the 27th pick.