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Official BKN Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0]

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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1301 » by SMTBSI » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:59 am

Andrew McCeltic wrote:but it would really only take the commissioner and one or two people in the lotto process.

I disagree.

In 2016, to have any chance of success, it seems to me it would take, at the bare minimum, the commissioner, the makers/providers of the lotto machine and balls, and the E&Y reps, which means there's already substantial risk exposure to some very large corporate entities. And that minimal roster assumes the commissioner is for some reason willing to pay the bribes out of his own pocket from his own untraceable assets (which in itself has major 'motive' implications).

If the bribe money is coming from elsewhere, then the roster gets larger.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1302 » by Chris4Vikes » Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:21 am

SMTBSI wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:but it would really only take the commissioner and one or two people in the lotto process.

I disagree.

In 2016, to have any chance of success, it seems to me it would take, at the bare minimum, the commissioner, the makers/providers of the lotto machine and balls, and the E&Y reps, which means there's already substantial risk exposure to some very large corporate entities. And that minimal roster assumes the commissioner is for some reason willing to pay the bribes out of his own pocket from his own untraceable assets (which in itself has major 'motive' implications).

If the bribe money is coming from elsewhere, then the roster gets larger.


The fact that it is not done live leaves me with tons of doubt. PERIOD.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1303 » by galipeautim » Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:37 am

Not sure what the purpose of bringing in a big 4 accounting firm is. Seems like the least likely people to determine if a machine is rigged.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1304 » by Chris4Vikes » Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:01 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC-Icj3FI18

I am telling you right now that Thon Maker is going a lot higher than people think. Watch this.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1305 » by Crossy2008 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:03 pm

Chris4Vikes wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC-Icj3FI18

I am telling you right now that Thon Maker is going a lot higher than people think. Watch this.


I think you're right, but highlight reels can be misleading sometimes. I think his pre-draft workouts are going to be big. Danny should be able to get him in I would think regardless of where the pick is. The more talent in this draft, the better for us. If he is remotely as good as he looked in that video, and is an aggressive rebounder, then he could be a big addition.

It's getting interesting.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1306 » by Andrew McCeltic » Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:29 pm

Crossy2008 wrote:
Chris4Vikes wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC-Icj3FI18

I am telling you right now that Thon Maker is going a lot higher than people think. Watch this.


I think you're right, but highlight reels can be misleading sometimes. I think his pre-draft workouts are going to be big. Danny should be able to get him in I would think regardless of where the pick is. The more talent in this draft, the better for us. If he is remotely as good as he looked in that video, and is an aggressive rebounder, then he could be a big addition.

It's getting interesting.


Yeah, highlights definitely misleading, the 'lowlights' are just as important (DraftExpress' 'Weaknesses' videos). Highlight vids are usually by fans and pick the most splashy stuff (dunks, 3 pointers) but they don't show you other plays, contexts... and if you just pick out someone's best moments, they'll look talented, but you have to see all the times they screw up, too, and fumble the ball, or get caught out of position, or throw away the ball, or bungle easy scoring opportunities, or dribble into a defender.

Take Javale McGee, who's infamous for turning and sprinting down court in the wrong direction. That doesn't show up in a highlight vid, his highlights are all dunks and blocks.

Take the 22 second mark in that video, he dunks in an open lane with a guy a foot taller than him scrambling out of the way. That situation might genuinely NEVER happen in his NBA career. It makes him look like an amazing athletic pro, like a young KG, but it's meaningless.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1307 » by Andrew McCeltic » Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:30 pm

Turns out DraftExpress has a weaknesses vid up for Thon

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60BdrbtEBPg[/youtube]
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1308 » by Andrew McCeltic » Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:36 pm

The stuff they start with is coachable, even if it takes a lot of coaching.. But saying he's "stiff" and "lacks offensive polish", it takes a lot to overcome.. I mean look how many years, minutes, second chances and hours in the gym it took Avery Bradley to go from a guy with great D and a decent corner 3 to someone with a little bit more offensive fluidity.

The small hands are the big red flag to me, those helped ruin Kwame Brown.. You can't see it on tv, but in the NBA, the ball moves like a rocket, if you don't have the hands to grab onto it, it's tricky..

Pre-draft workouts always matter, but especially with someone like Maker who hasn't played college ball. If he picks up sets and drills quickly and shows off skills no one's seen, people may get infatuated with him. If some of the "offensive polish" stuff has gotten better (young players can improve very suddenly), you never know..
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1309 » by Crossy2008 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:59 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:The stuff they start with is coachable, even if it takes a lot of coaching.. But saying he's "stiff" and "lacks offensive polish", it takes a lot to overcome.. I mean look how many years, minutes, second chances and hours in the gym it took Avery Bradley to go from a guy with great D and a decent corner 3 to someone with a little bit more offensive fluidity.

The small hands are the big red flag to me, those helped ruin Kwame Brown.. You can't see it on tv, but in the NBA, the ball moves like a rocket, if you don't have the hands to grab onto it, it's tricky..

Pre-draft workouts always matter, but especially with someone like Maker who hasn't played college ball. If he picks up sets and drills quickly and shows off skills no one's seen, people may get infatuated with him. If some of the "offensive polish" stuff has gotten better (young players can improve very suddenly), you never know..


It is tough when one of your weaknesses is strength. He is a walking oxymoron.

I wonder how much access his agent will give the teams to workout. Could Ainge pull in Poeltl and Maker and have them work together, and would their agents OK that. If Maker won't work out with other players, then I am reserving that Celtics late first for him because clearly his agent would be thinking that he is not ready to go against other rookies. This is going to be a big couple months for Maker to make his mark.

He has a lot of the tools to be successful in the NBA. A lot of what he needs to improve involve adding muscle, footwork, awareness, mechanics, and recognition. Give him a great coach, great coaching staff, a facility with every option, and teammates that have great work ethic and hope that everything starts to iron out.

I am still low on him until he shows he can play against better competition.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1310 » by Andrew McCeltic » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:04 pm

They mean his weakness is his lack of strength.. He's an intriguing player.

I just really don't see him going in the lottery, I think he's hype and no substance.. He's 7'1, flashy, that's it.

The hype world is weird, remember Gerald Green was supposedly a top 5 pick and lasted to us at 18, could've dropped even further. Is it possible his agent won't let him work out and will try to float his stock into the lottery that way? Maybe.. But teams aren't often *that* gullible.

Maker has some wow moments, but I see a guy who really doesn't have the frame (the physical 'upside') to get into NBA shape.

I'm not a strength trainer though, no one expected Myles Turner to fix his lower body problems in one summer and he did. Maybe Thon can strengthen his legs and core and positioning... But he'll still have small hands, and he'll still have limited offensive skill and awareness. It just looks like a steep and long uphill climb for him to be a player.

I mean, I'm open to a better argument about him, in highlights he does look kind of like a young KG, he's 7'1, mobile, runs, shoots, faces the basket, and has rim defending potential. He's also 19.. But right now, I'm just seeing a major project.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1311 » by Andrew McCeltic » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:05 pm

Would be interested to hear from ddb, BfB about what they or their league connections think..
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1312 » by joshuapending » Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:13 am

I'm hoping for an all Aussie draft. Simmons and Maker. Go you good thing.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1313 » by SMTBSI » Sat Apr 23, 2016 6:15 am

All right, since it seems like overall interest in the conversation has waned, this is the last post I'll make on the subject of lottery conspiracies, unless the conversation picks up steam again for some reason. But, I want to make one more point before I call it a day. Or really, make one more attempt at making my core point.

galipeautim wrote:Not sure what the purpose of bringing in a big 4 accounting firm is. Seems like the least likely people to determine if a machine is rigged.

It's strange but, in this case, I feel like it's actually the conspiracy theorists that are demonstrating a lack of imagination. Again, saying 'conspiracy!' or 'money!' or 'corruption!' is easy, but, if you actually sit down and try to think out what the conspiracy would actually have to look like in 2016, you run into obstacles.

So, consider the popcorn popper lotto machine. Not sure off the top of my head who manufactures it now, but one article I read about past lotteries said that they go with a company that makes equipment for state lottos and other high profile lottos. So, again, a large company, with many high profile costumers. (Edit: Smart Play. Kiki Vandeweghe says as much in the video linked to below. "Smart play manufactures machines for state lotteries across the country, and built the one we'll use here this evening. Smart Play has also weighed, measured, and certified all the ping pong balls that will be used.")

So, how are we rigging this machine? The idea of magnetizing the balls comes up a lot, so let's go with that for starters.

Now, it's not just enough to put magnets in the four balls you want to come up - you actually have to be able to make sure they come up in the correct order. The way I see it, there are two ways to do this. One: have relatively complex apparatus in the machine itself, that can scan for and identify the correct ball, and attract it specifically, probably by activating its own magnets only when the desired ball gets close). In this case, you probably have to magnetize all 14 balls, and then 'fake' all 3 selections, because you really can't afford any chance that a non-desired ball will ever make it into the tube - you really need complete control over every hit. I don't see how that sort of system could be built, completely invisibly, into the fully transparent device we see on those videos. (If there are any engineers on the forum, I would love to hear your opinions.)

Two: build some sort of electro-magnetic component into the balls themselves, which can be activated in sequence by a little radio transmitter in the pocket of someone backstage. This minimizes the complexity of the element that needs to be in the transparent part of the machine, and puts the complex stuff in the opaque balls. But, unless your solution is very tiny tech embedded into the skin of the ball itself, anyone with hands and eyes is going to be able to inspect the ping pong ball and realize it's got stuff in it (thus, the E&Y reps, and anyone else who inspects the balls, will need to be on the roster). (Not to mention that this whole idea is dead in the water if your tech makes the balls bounce differently, or has a risk of getting damaged while bouncing around). And if it is possible that tech could be built into the skin of the ball so as to be undetectable, the conspiracy gets much larger, because now we have to ask how it is that the lotto machine company has access to or operation of that tech, and nobody has noticed or gotten suspicious, when they're supposed to be building lotto machines for large profile, legit ventures, state lottos etc.


If anyone responds to this, it will probably be to tell me I'm overthinking/overcomplicating it. But that's been my point all along - to rig the lotto in 2016 would be complicated. I don't see any way, with the modern setup, it could be done "with two or three people". I just don't.


If anyone can outline to me a reasonably complete mock up of the conspiracy, that's actually simple, reliable, and only involves a couple of people, I would love to see it.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1314 » by SMTBSI » Sat Apr 23, 2016 6:36 am

Chris4Vikes wrote:The fact that it is not done live leaves me with tons of doubt. PERIOD.

From the video linked above of the 2015 lotto:

On top of reps of the 14 teams physically present, sitting feet away,
Kiki Vandeweghe, Senior Vice President, NBA Basketball Operations wrote:Overseeing and verifying the entire process today is Denise Pelli form the accounting firm of Ernst & Young. When the drawing is finished, she will place the team logo cards into the envelope, seal them, and deliver them to NBA deputy commissioner Mark Tatum.

Lastly we have 12 members of the media joining us, as well as a video crew from NBA entertainment, to document the proceeding. The video of the drawing will be posted on NBA.com and the gametime app immediately after the results are publicly revealed.

If the lack of live televising gives you doubt, then you are implicitly implicating all of those people. If there's something going on there that they don't want us to see and need a little time to doctor out of the footage, but are okay with all 14 team reps, 12 media members, and the E&Y rep seeing, your conspiracy just got much, much larger.



EDIT:
SMTBSI wrote:this is the last post I'll make on the subject of lottery conspiracies

Sorry - unreliable narrator'd.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1315 » by giambijuice » Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:45 am

it was so obvious stern was fixing everything. who was born in manhattan...stern. so it's in his blood to hate any success any boston sports teams have . he hates boston dominating basketball mostly as all new yorkers do... who benefitted from the lottery ? ny or anyone not named boston.. where is the biggest mob ? ny... who was the most dominant team ? celtics... who is in direct competition and hatred with the most dominant team. ny..where is the league office ? ny... who fixes games so lakers get close to celtics in banners ? stern ... this league has been unwatchable since the new yorker stern took over. the jury is still out on silver...another new yorker.

let me ask you this

what community of people hates boston's success in sports more than new york and where are the league offices of the nba ,nfl and mlb located ?

i rest my case.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1316 » by Jingles » Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:48 pm

Yeah, all those New York titles are a dead giveaway.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1317 » by Captain_Caveman » Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:15 am

Chris4Vikes wrote:
SMTBSI wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:but it would really only take the commissioner and one or two people in the lotto process.

I disagree.

In 2016, to have any chance of success, it seems to me it would take, at the bare minimum, the commissioner, the makers/providers of the lotto machine and balls, and the E&Y reps, which means there's already substantial risk exposure to some very large corporate entities. And that minimal roster assumes the commissioner is for some reason willing to pay the bribes out of his own pocket from his own untraceable assets (which in itself has major 'motive' implications).

If the bribe money is coming from elsewhere, then the roster gets larger.


The fact that it is not done live leaves me with tons of doubt. PERIOD.


Didn't they used to show it until it was deemed too boring?
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1318 » by galipeautim » Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:54 am

SMTBSI wrote:
Chris4Vikes wrote:The fact that it is not done live leaves me with tons of doubt. PERIOD.

From the video linked above of the 2015 lotto:

On top of reps of the 14 teams physically present, sitting feet away,
Kiki Vandeweghe, Senior Vice President, NBA Basketball Operations wrote:Overseeing and verifying the entire process today is Denise Pelli form the accounting firm of Ernst & Young. When the drawing is finished, she will place the team logo cards into the envelope, seal them, and deliver them to NBA deputy commissioner Mark Tatum.

Lastly we have 12 members of the media joining us, as well as a video crew from NBA entertainment, to document the proceeding. The video of the drawing will be posted on NBA.com and the gametime app immediately after the results are publicly revealed.

If the lack of live televising gives you doubt, then you are implicitly implicating all of those people. If there's something going on there that they don't want us to see and need a little time to doctor out of the footage, but are okay with all 14 team reps, 12 media members, and the E&Y rep seeing, your conspiracy just got much, much larger.



EDIT:
SMTBSI wrote:this is the last post I'll make on the subject of lottery conspiracies

Sorry - unreliable narrator'd.


It's definitely not fixed, I just thing it's superfluous to have an E&Y rep there. Get an independent engineer if people are concerned. Better yet, just pick the Celtics.
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1319 » by ConstableGeneva » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:54 pm

[tweet]https://twitter.com/geoff_calkins/status/724641100573585408[/tweet]Uh-oh. Is it too early to include MEM in the thread title? Knicks and Nets could both go after Conley, but I imagine he'd want to join a winning or up-and-coming team. Bucks maybe?
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Re: Official BKN-DAL Pick Watch Thread 2016 Season [3.0] 

Post#1320 » by SMTBSI » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:32 pm

CrowderKeg wrote:Knicks and Nets could both go after Conley, but I imagine he'd want to join a winning or up-and-coming team. Bucks maybe?

Why not us? IT off-ball has seemed viable. I could see a primary 3-guard rotation of Conley/IT/AB. Possibly could even still start IT - sub him out early for AB, them bring him back when Conley sits (or the other way around). Either way, have one of Conley and IT on the floor at all times. Probably let ET walk in this scenario.

Those three and Smart... seems like a pretty versatile personnel group to me. Painfully lacking in height, but,
- Smart, AB and Conley are strong defenders.
- Conley seems to be approximately Bradley-level as a 3-pt threat (lifetime .373 3pt% at .274 3PAr, vs. AB's .360 at .301).
- Conley's 27.9 ast% career would be 2nd on our team after IT's 29%.

Age, health, and probably price-tag, are cons. Keeping him away from the NY teams is a pro (as is facilitating MEM's demise, I guess).


Alternatively, seems like a possible nice companion move in the universes where there's a real roster shakeup and we wind up with Butler.

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