'15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Doctor MJ]

I get what Doc is saying and speaking solely in theory I agree. But just like I was saying last year---Lebron just keeps getting it done. Regardless of what teammates are left standing and how they are playing, the East has gone through Lebron for 5 years and counting now. I tend to think Doc is right in his belief that a team with Lebron James has a lower ceiling than some of his peers(albeit with maybe the highest floor of all-time?). But his team didn't deserve to beat the Warriors or the Spurs(2x--tho they did beat them once), and were close to a push against Dallas. I think we have at times unrealistic expectations of team results for Lebron when in reality for the most part his teams are only getting eliminated by teams clearly better than his(or very veteran laden teams better than their record/SRS suggests(11 Mavs, 10 Celtics. I mean the loss in 09 to the Magic is the closest thing to a poor team result Lebron has in the playoffs.

I'm not a fan of the guy and I recognize some of these same flaws you do, but its a results business and he seems to find a way to take his team at least as far as their talent should take them and frequently further.

My issue with this perspective is that it's not like LeBron utterly torches all other MVP candidates in production and impact stats but we're quibbling because there's a better team out there. LeBron this year isn't the best by any of these measures. Yeah he keeps "getting it done" in the sense of being a Top 5 player, but it nowhere near enough to give him the top spot by default.

[Doctor MJ]

Personally, I don't hold anything against a player if they're performing on court. To this point, Lebron has been better than anyone I have over him to me on court this season, and his team has been successful because of it. The only way I'll hold anything against him is if it somehow leaked on to the court and resulted in losses, which I don't foresee happening. The analogy doesn't totally fit, but somewhat, that to me Green is a guy born on 3rd base who looks like he's ready to score a run. Lebron's under a much bigger spotlight and to this point has just been the better player.

Ah, reasonable response. I didn't mean to imply that I'd be holding back on LeBron just because he rubbed me the wrong way. What I mean is that while LeBron had big impact all year, there's really nothing to indicate it's clearly more impact than someone like Green or Kawhi. However all of us I think tend to think that LeBron can kick it to another gear that puts him clearly beyond those other guys, and my point is really that us giving him the benefit of the doubt on that front as we speak now also puts the onus on him to actually pull that off.

If at the end of the playoffs it still feels like LeBron isn't able to get the most out of his teammates, then I don't think there should be anything hard & fast about putting him ahead of those other guys given that those guys are awe-inspiring particularly because of how they've evolved their game to give maximum value to a great team and my concern about LeBron right now is that he is NOT doing that.

Have you taken a look at the numbers SSB has posted recently in the LeBron thread? Because those numbers indicate that's exactly what LeBron's doing.

Limited sample size but it's part of a larger picture that says LeBron's not the problem in Cleveland:

Since Jan. 1

Lebron + Love | No Irving (318 MP, 613 Poss)

128.5 ORTG ( ), 105.2 DRTG, +23.3 Net

Lebron + Love + Smith | No Irving (240 MP, 465 Poss)

132.2 ORTG, 101.7 DRTG, +30.5 Net

Lebron + Love + Smith + Thompson | No Irving (114 MP, 223 Poss)

135.4 ORTG, 97.3 DRTG, +38.1 Net

Lebron ON | Kyrie, Love ON (114 MP, 202 Poss)

122.8 ORTG, 110.9 DRTG, +11.9 Net

Cavs: 57.5% TS, 11.4% TO

Lebron OFF | Kyrie, Love ON (16 MP, 30 Poss)

103.3 ORTG, 140.0 DRTG, -36.7 Net

Cavs: 47.7% TS, 10.0% TO

And I really enjoyed his approach to the Detroit series. He's struggled in scoring against them all year, only averaged 20 points in 50 TS% against them in 3 games, so he contributed massively in other areas, he was their best defensive player and he opened up so many shooters with his screen setting and roll pressure. Very limited sample size, but in the playoffs so far he's providing a 36.4 per 100 improvement to the defense. There's a very clear distinction in the way LeBron plays when he's on court with Delly vs with Kyrie, and the difference isn't really caused by his own skill set limitations (which he certainly has at this point in his career), but rather the floor skills of the point guard he's playing with. So I'm not sure if I buy the line of thinking that LeBron is the one holding his team back. Rather, he's pushing the ceiling of the team much much higher than it should be.

Well look, if LeBron makes the team come through when it counts, then that makes all discussion moot, but I struggle to credit LeBron & co with anything that resembles "flipping the switch" when we've never actually seen that happen, let alone seen it happen so regularly we should assume it.

And I'll admit that while I'm not going to let my emotions in the way when all is said & done, I do become more skeptical when I see LeBron acting the douche. To beat healthy Warrior & Spur teams, I'm expecting a team to have to be more than the sum of its parts, and that's not remotely how the Cavs have seemed.

[PaulieWal]

Thinking about it more.....it's really going to be hard for me to place Curry 1 on my ballot unless he doesn't miss more than a game or two in the 2nd round. As it stands now Warriors are going to wax the Clippers without CP. My guess is that they won't bring Curry back until the WCF now but in that case I just can't place him #1 on account of all the missed time and his team making the WCF with him playing not even 1 full game in the first two rounds.

There are a lot of moving parts but Kawhi, GOAT, LeBron and KD all have a chance to be #1 on my ballot if they can impress me with their playoff run(s). I wouldn't have said that before yesterday's injury to Curry but now I don't see how Curry ends up 1 on my list.

[GSP]

Thinking about it more.....it's really going to be hard for me to place Curry 1 on my ballot unless he doesn't miss more than a game or two in the 2nd round. As it stands now Warriors are going to wax the Clippers without CP. My guess is that they won't bring Curry back until the WCF now but in that case I just can't place him #1 on account of all the missed time and his team making the WCF with him playing not even 1 full game in the first two rounds.

There are a lot of moving parts but Kawhi, GOAT, LeBron and KD all have a chance to be #1 on my ballot if they can impress me with their playoff run(s). I wouldn't have said that before yesterday's injury to Curry but now I don't see how Curry ends up 1 on my list.

Agreed. Tho i think Kd is out of the running for me. Unlikely he will have a great enough series against a defense like San Antonio with Kawhi guarding him and he wasnt too good against Dallas. Carlisle is the coach i want on my team if Kd is on the other side, dude knows exactly how to play him.

I think out Kawhi, Lebron and Westbrook i have to have Kawhi ahead in that hypothetical but still alot of basketball left.

[Clyde Frazier]

Simple question, which is merely just a feeling right now: is this the best clippers team of the Paul era?

[EDIT - their highest SRS was in 13-14, but i'm just talking as currently constructed in the playoffs]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/LAClippers/status/724827434659516417[/tweet]

Welp...

[HeartBreakKid]

I dont think anyone can take the #1 spot from Curry unless they have a herculean post season.

CP3 breaking his hand, come on mannnnnnnnn.

[mikejames23]

I really wanted to see Paul vs Curry. Seriously, if he's got a broken hand and Curry's playing with knee issues, this will be a total downer. Chris Paul was seriously impressive when Griffin fell out and had a monster RS.

If he's gonna go out, he's at least gotta go out guns blazin', not with another lame injury. Argh.

[ceiling raiser]

As crappy as this CP3 news is (and it's incredibly disappointing):

1) Increased likelihood of the Spurs/Warriors series we were all waiting for this year.

2) Facing either a depleted Clippers or the Blazers makes it less likely GS will rush Curry back before he's 100%.

3) Because of (2), we'll most likely have a bigger sample of GS without Curry in the playoffs, which will be useful for figuring out what to do with Green.

Absolutely terrible news, but I think these will be interesting to follow.

[Doctor MJ]

Thinking about it more.....it's really going to be hard for me to place Curry 1 on my ballot unless he doesn't miss more than a game or two in the 2nd round. As it stands now Warriors are going to wax the Clippers without CP. My guess is that they won't bring Curry back until the WCF now but in that case I just can't place him #1 on account of all the missed time and his team making the WCF with him playing not even 1 full game in the first two rounds.

There are a lot of moving parts but Kawhi, GOAT, LeBron and KD all have a chance to be #1 on my ballot if they can impress me with their playoff run(s). I wouldn't have said that before yesterday's injury to Curry but now I don't see how Curry ends up 1 on my list.

Totally your call on how you want to weight things, and I'm still deciding for myself. One thing I'll say though:

If the Warriors' 2nd round opponent doesn't look serious, either because the Clippers are missing their star or Portland is a tier down, I don't know if Curry missing time will hurt him that much in my rankings if in the end he comes back and destroys the Spurs and the Cavs.

[SideshowBob]

OKC with a +15.5 Offense in the first round (+14.9 w/Team TOs), 122.5 ORTG. Going nuts on the offensive glass at 34.3% ORB.

CLE with a +14.9 Offense in the first round (+13.7 w/Team TOs), 120.4 ORTG. Crazy TO control (8.4% TOV) + 14 threes per game.

[RSCD3_]

OKC with a +15.5 Offense in the first round (+14.9 w/Team TOs), 122.5 ORTG. Going nuts on the offensive glass at 34.3% ORB.

CLE with a +14.9 Offense in the first round (+13.7 w/Team TOs), 120.4 ORTG. Crazy TO control (8.4% TOV) + 14 threes per game.

Yeah dallas looked weak on the glass in that series how were each team's rebounding during the RS. OKC has plus rebounders ar 3 positions most of the time but they destroyed dallas, getting rebounds like they were a big brother whose 4 years older than you in a backyard game

[SideshowBob]

OKC with a +15.5 Offense in the first round (+14.9 w/Team TOs), 122.5 ORTG. Going nuts on the offensive glass at 34.3% ORB.

CLE with a +14.9 Offense in the first round (+13.7 w/Team TOs), 120.4 ORTG. Crazy TO control (8.4% TOV) + 14 threes per game.

Yeah dallas looked weak on the glass in that series how were each team's rebounding during the RS. OKC has plus rebounders ar 3 positions most of the time but they destroyed dallas, getting rebounds like they were a big brother whose 4 years older than you in a backyard game

OKC lead the league for the RS at 31.1% ORB, Dallas was league average at 76.2% DRB.

[PaulieWal]

Thinking about it more.....it's really going to be hard for me to place Curry 1 on my ballot unless he doesn't miss more than a game or two in the 2nd round. As it stands now Warriors are going to wax the Clippers without CP. My guess is that they won't bring Curry back until the WCF now but in that case I just can't place him #1 on account of all the missed time and his team making the WCF with him playing not even 1 full game in the first two rounds.

There are a lot of moving parts but Kawhi, GOAT, LeBron and KD all have a chance to be #1 on my ballot if they can impress me with their playoff run(s). I wouldn't have said that before yesterday's injury to Curry but now I don't see how Curry ends up 1 on my list.

Totally your call on how you want to weight things, and I'm still deciding for myself. One thing I'll say though:

If the Warriors' 2nd round opponent doesn't look serious, either because the Clippers are missing their star or Portland is a tier down, I don't know if Curry missing time will hurt him that much in my rankings if in the end he comes back and destroys the Spurs and the Cavs.

Of course, I am open to that possibility. I am here with an open mind and if Curry comes back to start the WCF and then dominates the Spurs/Cavs I'd probably still keep him #1. But at this point I don't think he's going to come back after 2 weeks ish on a shaky knee and start dominating. This guy is different so who knows. He could come back 100% but only time will tell.

[PaulieWal]

I dont think anyone can take the #1 spot from Curry unless they have a herculean post season.

CP3 breaking his hand, come on mannnnnnnnn.

Let me ask you this....

What if the Warriors lose without him in round 2 or what if he comes back in time for the WCF but isn't himself and they lose to the Spurs?

How can you justify him for the 1 spot in that scenario because right now there's a good chance that he's not a 100% going forward and does not play up to his RS standards?

[HeartBreakKid]

I dont think anyone can take the #1 spot from Curry unless they have a herculean post season.

CP3 breaking his hand, come on mannnnnnnnn.

Let me ask you this....

What if the Warriors lose without him in round 2 or what if he comes back in time for the WCF but isn't himself and they lose to the Spurs?

How can you justify him for the 1 spot in that scenario because right now there's a good chance that he's not a 100% going forward?

Pretty easy justification, he was the best player this year. I don't make my rankings based on who was the hottest, rather who was the best players in those particular years. A two week injury isn't enough to sideline that Curry was well ahead of his competition, I mean it wasn't even close during the RS.

I have leeway for injuries, he had already clinched the award before the post season had even started.

[Texas Chuck]

Not a fan of Kerr winning COY. I mean I expected it and I get it. But I don't agree or like it.

[ceiling raiser]

1. (T) Stephen Curry/Draymond Green

I'm considering this too, especially with Curry missing a good deal of time. Three questions for you:

1) As of today, where do you have Green for 14-15?

2) How do you rate about 10-13 KG and 08-11 Odom for those seasons (doesn't have to be precise, just ballpark thoughts)? Not perfect analogs to Green, but I think they're somewhat relevant.

3) With regards to Leonard (who I also had top 3 going into the playoffs, with Curry and possibly Green being the other two), I think this is a tough situation. With Curry missing a lot of time in the postseason. He could very well be the top perimeter player on POY ballots, but he's not a guy who's an elite playmaker. Is this an issue for you? Or do you think Leonard's playmaking is underrated?

[PaulieWal]

I dont think anyone can take the #1 spot from Curry unless they have a herculean post season.

CP3 breaking his hand, come on mannnnnnnnn.

Let me ask you this....

What if the Warriors lose without him in round 2 or what if he comes back in time for the WCF but isn't himself and they lose to the Spurs?

How can you justify him for the 1 spot in that scenario because right now there's a good chance that he's not a 100% going forward?

Pretty easy justification, he was the best player this year. I don't make my rankings based on who was the hottest, rather who was the best players in those particular years. A two week injury isn't enough to sideline that Curry was well ahead of his competition, I mean it wasn't even close during the RS.

What?

Holding injuries against a player doesn't mean you are basing your rankings on who's the "hottest". If you miss the playoffs with an injury IMO you are pretty much disqualified. Sure in a vacuum we can say he was the best player in the league then but if you are not on the floor in the PS that's a significant strike against a player in my eyes.

I actually place more value on the RS but you also can't be injured in the PS and still be #1 on the ballot in my view.

Curry is not just going to miss two random weeks in January, he's missing playoff games and if the Warriors lose to the Spurs because he isn't healthy then he wasn't the best player in the league value wise for me. Not even close.

[HeartBreakKid]

Let me ask you this....

What if the Warriors lose without him in round 2 or what if he comes back in time for the WCF but isn't himself and they lose to the Spurs?

How can you justify him for the 1 spot in that scenario because right now there's a good chance that he's not a 100% going forward?

Pretty easy justification, he was the best player this year. I don't make my rankings based on who was the hottest, rather who was the best players in those particular years. A two week injury isn't enough to sideline that Curry was well ahead of his competition, I mean it wasn't even close during the RS.

What?

Holding injuries against a player doesn't mean you are basing your rankings on who's the "hottest". If you miss the playoffs with an injury IMO you are pretty much disqualified. Sure in a vacuum we can say he was the best player in the league then but if you are not on the floor in the PS that's a significant strike against a player in my eyes.

I actually place more value on the RS but you also can't be injured in the PS and still be #1 on the ballot in my view.

Curry is not just going to miss two random weeks in January, he's missing playoff games and if the Warriors lose to the Spurs because he isn't healthy then he wasn't the best player in the league value wise for me. Not even close.

So if he missed two weeks in January it wouldn't affect your rankings? That is really arbitrary.

You already admitted in a vacuum he was the best player in this very post....so I don't get what you're arguing about.

If Curry was healthy he would obviously be the best player in the NBA, you could say that I am using the word "if", but there is a ton of evidence to not suggest otherwise. There is enough information to already answer the question on who is the best player in the NBA, the post season is important information but in this case it is not necessary to make that determination for me. I don't think this is particularly hard logic to follow, I mean you really have to be a huge skeptic to not see that Curry was the best player this year, he could have went on vacation as soon as the Warriors broke the record for all I care.

And people do make rankings based on who is the hottest, hence why Kyle Lowry is a top ten player even though it is easy to project he is not a good playoff player, or people fancying Draymond Green having the #1 spot.


When I make my POY rankings, I am putting who I think are the 5 absolute best players as of the end of that particular season. Nothing more complicated than that. If you think someone is better than Curry, then tell me who it is, because as of now it seems like it is Curry. Also, using your criteria you shouldn't even have Curry on your ballot much less #1, which to me is absurd.

[PaulieWal]

Pretty easy justification, he was the best player this year. I don't make my rankings based on who was the hottest, rather who was the best players in those particular years. A two week injury isn't enough to sideline that Curry was well ahead of his competition, I mean it wasn't even close during the RS.

What?

Holding injuries against a player doesn't mean you are basing your rankings on who's the "hottest". If you miss the playoffs with an injury IMO you are pretty much disqualified. Sure in a vacuum we can say he was the best player in the league then but if you are not on the floor in the PS that's a significant strike against a player in my eyes.

I actually place more value on the RS but you also can't be injured in the PS and still be #1 on the ballot in my view.

Curry is not just going to miss two random weeks in January, he's missing playoff games and if the Warriors lose to the Spurs because he isn't healthy then he wasn't the best player in the league value wise for me. Not even close.

So if he missed two weeks in January it wouldn't affect your rankings? That is really arbitrary.

You already admitted in a vacuum he was the best player in this very post....so I don't get what you're arguing about.

If Curry was healthy he would obviously be the best player in the NBA, you could say that I am using the word "if", but there is a ton of evidence to not suggest otherwise. There is enough information to already answer the question on who is the best player in the NBA, the post season is important information but in this case it is not necessary to make that determination for me. I don't think this is particularly hard logic to follow, I mean you really have to be a huge skeptic to not see that Curry was the best player this year, he could have went on vacation as soon as the Warriors broke the record for all I care.

And people do make rankings based on who is the hottest, hence why Kyle Lowry is a top ten player even though it is easy to project he is not a good playoff player, or people fancying Draymond Green having the #1 spot.


When I make my POY rankings, I am putting who I think are the 5 absolute best players as of the end of that particular season. Nothing more complicated than that.

How is that arbitrary? For my POY ballot like a lot of posters I try to judge players based on their RS + PS play. If you are hurt in the PS and your team loses then in my eyes that impacts your overall rating for that year.

Pretty simple actually. I am not trying to change your mind but we all have different things we value and being available to play in the PS is a big one for me. I'd say the same thing if Curry played all 3 or 4 rounds but under-performed and some other star outplayed him in the PS.

FTR, if Curry comes back and dominates the Spurs/Cavs then I'll still have him #1.