Let's Talk About Mario

[OrlChamps2030]

Fournier's not a blackhole or anything but I don't think its outlandish to claim that at times he looked guys off or tried to pad his stats. But it was a contract year amidst a lost season so I can't be mad at him..

[thelead]

Give me an open AG jumper over Evan trying to lay it up over 3 defenders ALL DAY, EVERY DAY.

You can't be serious? Fournier was one of the best open court finishers in the NBA, able to generate excellent points per possession from exactly those kind of plays. He either got free throws or finished a large majority of the time.

Meanwhile AG jump shot:

I'm not talking about a 1 on 1 situation here. No way is Evan shooting better than 25% on 1 on 3's, albeit a small and specific sample size.

[thelead]

Not sure why we're arguing about it anyway. I expect that once he gets paid, most of this will subside... whether with us or someone else.

[ezzzp]

Give me an open AG jumper over Evan trying to lay it up over 3 defenders ALL DAY, EVERY DAY.

You can't be serious? Fournier was one of the best open court finishers in the NBA, able to generate excellent points per possession from exactly those kind of plays. He either got free throws or finished a large majority of the time.

Meanwhile AG jump shot:

[img]

I'm not talking about a 1 on 1 situation here. No way is Evan shooting better than 25% on 1 on 3's, albeit a small and specific sample size.

There is no stat for that specificity, but Fournier is one of the best in the NBA at finishing in transition...

Let me put it this way, Fournier in Transition Plays generates a Points Per Possession of (1.34) ... Lebron James (1.32) and Kevin Durant (1.32) in that type of play.

...Evan Fournier is very very good at converting in the open court.

[thelead]

You can't be serious? Fournier was one of the best open court finishers in the NBA, able to generate excellent points per possession from exactly those kind of plays. He either got free throws or finished a large majority of the time.

Meanwhile AG jump shot:

[img]

I'm not talking about a 1 on 1 situation here. No way is Evan shooting better than 25% on 1 on 3's, albeit a small and specific sample size.

There is no stat for that specificity, but Fournier is one of the best in the NBA at finishing in transition...

Let me put it this way, Fournier in Transition Plays generates a Points Per Possession of (1.34) ... Lebron James (1.32) and Kevin Durant (1.32) in that type of play.

...Evan Fournier is very very good at converting in the open court.

Is there any stat on passing while in transition (assisting on a fastbreak? Although Evan is really good at passing out of a long rebound or a steal)? This is where someone like Lebron excels.

[ezzzp]

I'm not talking about a 1 on 1 situation here. No way is Evan shooting better than 25% on 1 on 3's, albeit a small and specific sample size.

There is no stat for that specificity, but Fournier is one of the best in the NBA at finishing in transition...

Let me put it this way, Fournier in Transition Plays generates a Points Per Possession of (1.34) ... Lebron James (1.32) and Kevin Durant (1.32) in that type of play.

...Evan Fournier is very very good at converting in the open court.

Is there any stat on passing while in transition (assisting on a fastbreak? Although Evan is really good at passing out of a long rebound or a steal)? This is where someone like Lebron excels.

not sure, but I gotta run right now - will try to find something later today

[SaberT]

Fournier's not a blackhole or anything but I don't think its outlandish to claim that at times he looked guys off or tried to pad his stats. But it was a contract year amidst a lost season so I can't be mad at him..

Exactly. I thought it's not something that needs to be debated. Fournier looked guys off. He passed the ball, but Vucevic got the ball in great situations, while Payton usually got the ball if the play broke down. This is evident in statistics when you compare Oladipo and Fournier passing statistics.

Fournier made 6.5 passes to Payton, of which only 0.1 passes resulted in assists. (1.5%)
Fournier made 5.6 passes to Vucevic, of which 0.8 passes resulted in assists. (14.3%)
Fournier made 4.0 passes to Oladipo, of which 0.2 resulted in assists (5%)

Oladipo made 7.8 passes to Payton, of which 0.4 passes resulted in assists (5.1%)
Oladipo made 6 passes to Vucevic, of which 0.7 passes resulted in assists (11.6%)
Oladipo made 5.5 passes to Fournier, of which 0.6 passes resulted in assists (11%)

Payton made 12.9 passes to Vucevic, of which 1.6 passes resulted in assists (12.4%)
Payton made 11.1 passes to Fournier, of which 0.8 resulted in assists (7.2%)
Payton made 9.4 passes to Oladipo, of which 0.8 resulted in assists (8.5%)

These are not massively different numbers, but I believe they prove that Fournier does give the ball to Vucevic when he is in a good situation, but if he sees Payton in a good situation he looks him off.

These stats do not lie. My interpretation is that Fournier passes to Vucevic who he feels is great offensively and who he trusts. He does not trust Payton to score as efficiently so he tries to score himself, and passes back to Payton when play breaks down. This is not damning, I do not think Fournier is a bad player because of it. There is no need to defend him.

I suggest that the moderator moves Fournier related posts to a Fournier thread (or generic discussion thread).

(stats can be seen here)
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203095/tracking/passes/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

[the_hobo]

Gordon is the better dunker, but fournier is the better finisher, especially in traffic. He reminds me of Turkeyglue slashing to the basket.

Also just saying, Nicholson is the better PF on our team! Sorry, it's been a while... had to get my fix

[SOUL]

Nicholson AKA The Butcher definitely sells the best cold cuts in town.

[the_hobo]

Nicholson AKA The Butcher definitely sells the best cold cuts in town.

If he takes people down into the Torture Chamber.... and if he sells cold cuts....

COLDS CUTS IS PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

LOL

[SOUL]

[Incognito76]

Mods spamming so they can close thread?

[Xatticus]

I just wonder what you think most of the board is looking at ezzzp.

I can respect that you take the time with these screen shots, that somehow at 28 years old I still can't figure out how to do with a computer (maybe I'm autistic).

But we all see it.. the guy has blinders on especially on the fast break. He has his favorites, like Vuc especially.

You can make the argument he SHOULD be the one to keep the ball and not pass it, or that he SHOULD pass to Vuc primarily because he's a great offensive player, but it seems like you always try to argue the point that it is the case. Just surprising since you seem to watch just as much as us but never give him that criticism.

Allow me to introduce you to research 101: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias.

Here are some random examples of incorrect conclusions produced by we-all-see-it logic:

-- Gravity pulls harder on heavier things than on lighter things.
-- Illnesses are caused by demons who have invaded the bodies of sinners.
-- The sun revolves around the earth.
-- Three point shooting doesn't win championships.

What we think we see is not always what is. That's why we look at data.

The massive flaw in this is that not a drop of the data that has been put forth thus far has anything to do with the point in question. I get that it looks valid enough if it supports your position, but statistics are not inherently facts. Improperly presenting data to support an argument is fallacious. In the world of research and statistical analysis, this amounts to lying and can ruin your career.

[Def Swami]

Fournier's not a blackhole or anything but I don't think its outlandish to claim that at times he looked guys off or tried to pad his stats. But it was a contract year amidst a lost season so I can't be mad at him..

BOOM! Nuance! Not a blackhole or selfish but not the most willing passer either. Is it hurting the team? Hardly. He has a scorer's mentality and we benefit more than suffer from it.

There are way more pertinent problems with this team like the dearth of shooting from the point guard position and inability to protect the rim.

[Nemesis21]

Nicholson AKA The Butcher definitely sells the best cold cuts in town.

[SOUL]

Mods spamming so they can close thread?

What?

[SOUL]

Fournier's not a blackhole or anything but I don't think its outlandish to claim that at times he looked guys off or tried to pad his stats. But it was a contract year amidst a lost season so I can't be mad at him..

BOOM! Nuance! Not a blackhole or selfish but not the most willing passer either. Is it hurting the team? Hardly. He has a scorer's mentality and we benefit more than suffer from it.

There are way more pertinent problems with this team like the dearth of shooting from the point guard position and inability to protect the rim.

At times, because other times he is easily the worst +/- on the court when the team isn't even playing bad. Like that -60 in 3 games where nobody else was near him. I just think he's a super sixth man and if Mario is able to draw fouls, dribble and just continue to work on his shooting, he has the perfect skill-set for the starting position. Every player on the team is guilty of tunnel-visioning though, but it's a whole 'nother level with Fournier. I hope if we re-sign him that the coaches work on that aspect. No reason we shouldn't be scoring 3 on 1 fastbreaks because nobody hits the trailer and we try to 1v1 a good defender.

[premo321]

[/img][IMG]
One of them will get max, other is on 7 mill

Same production, same TS% (worst jumper for louwill which he compensates with FT), all other stats almost equal, evan plays better D than lou(not that hard really) and D is crucial when considering evan-he needs to be great 2 way player because this kind of production he have on offense can be replaced for cheaper than max.

Only Qmark for him is if he can guard SF or not(Mario can if and when he pulls his S together in nba), because if both evan and dipo stay, evan will play sf annnd he will start cause I dont think magic will pay him all that money otherwise. I have feeling they will pay him and start next season and if team go south they pull tobias on him, and insert mario in his spot

[Catledge]

I just wonder what you think most of the board is looking at ezzzp.

I can respect that you take the time with these screen shots, that somehow at 28 years old I still can't figure out how to do with a computer (maybe I'm autistic).

But we all see it.. the guy has blinders on especially on the fast break. He has his favorites, like Vuc especially.

You can make the argument he SHOULD be the one to keep the ball and not pass it, or that he SHOULD pass to Vuc primarily because he's a great offensive player, but it seems like you always try to argue the point that it is the case. Just surprising since you seem to watch just as much as us but never give him that criticism.

Allow me to introduce you to research 101: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias.

Here are some random examples of incorrect conclusions produced by we-all-see-it logic:

-- Gravity pulls harder on heavier things than on lighter things.
-- Illnesses are caused by demons who have invaded the bodies of sinners.
-- The sun revolves around the earth.
-- Three point shooting doesn't win championships.

What we think we see is not always what is. That's why we look at data.

The massive flaw in this is that not a drop of the data that has been put forth thus far has anything to do with the point in question. I get that it looks valid enough if it supports your position, but statistics are not inherently facts. Improperly presenting data to support an argument is fallacious. In the world of research and statistical analysis, this amounts to lying and can ruin your career.

Seems pretty clear that the evidence posted by Ezzp and Saber indicates that Fournier is a pretty average passer. I'm open to an argument for why I'm misinterpreting the data, but I haven't seen such an argument posted yet.

[OrlChamps2030]

Fournier's not a blackhole or anything but I don't think its outlandish to claim that at times he looked guys off or tried to pad his stats. But it was a contract year amidst a lost season so I can't be mad at him..

BOOM! Nuance! Not a blackhole or selfish but not the most willing passer either. Is it hurting the team? Hardly. He has a scorer's mentality and we benefit more than suffer from it.

There are way more pertinent problems with this team like the dearth of shooting from the point guard position and inability to protect the rim.

We finished almost 10 games out of the playoffs and there were a lot of problems with this team. The lack of interior defense and perimeter shooting are huge problems with this team. I point them out often. Like you stated, Fournier isnt the most willing passer, which isn't as major of a problem, but Skiles has instilled a ball-movement heavy offense and selfless passing is necessary. I don't see whats wrong with acknowledging and hoping Fournier improves with his decision making next year.