Is Wall Top 5 PG?

[dckingsfan]

John Wall is a very very good NBA player. But he's not a top-5 point guard, and he's not a superstar. Still, he is very very good. And maybe he can get a little better -- why deny him that opportunity to improve a bit? But that doesn't mean he's a top 5 point guard or that he will be even if he does improve some.

Becoming a superstar next year - book it.

Fanaticism at its best.

[pcbothwel]

Not excuses. Wall should be a leader. Wall should shoot better. The way to heal the team is to have an iso scorer who will convert more than our team does; can lead where Wall can't; can relied on to force and make shots where Wall can't; and will allow Wall to focus on defense. Give Wall a KG and a Ray Allen and you give the setting for Wall to shine. Otherwise, you are asking him to do that which he obviously can't do.

Nonsense. Nobody is asking Wall to bring the ball up the court and shoot a pullup j without anyone touching the ball. Nobody is asking Wall to jump to throw a pass when he doesn't even know who he is passing to.

I think I'm starting to follow what Barely Awake is trying to argue. If I'm correct, Barely, you are saying that we should view John Wall on the model of Rajon Rondo, i.e. that he's at his best when he plays in *that* mold, not the one he currently plays in. Do i have that right?

In which case, you're also saying that Rondo needed guys like KG and Ray Allen to be in a position where he showed how terrific he could be. Put Wall in a similar situation and you'll see him shine.

The only problem with that POV is that Rondo just had one of his better seasons, and he was on a bad team that didn't surround him w/ those kinds of players. He was also a little better in '09-10 (when Garnett, Pierce and Allen all had off years) than in '10-11 (when all 3 of them bounced back).

Above all, in the first part of 2014-15, when the Celtics were a transitional team without KG, Ray Allen or Paul Pierce -- and were about to trade him -- Rondo put up some of the best numbers of his career.

IOW, I can't see how your argument about Wall holds water, sorry.

You know, a better comparison might be Kidd. Kidd had a lot of very mediocre years offensively early in his career. But some of his best years came in a two-three year stretch from age 31-33 when he had a Prime Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson. He replicated this productivity/efficiency from 34-36 with Mavs and a Prime Dirk, Josh Howard, and Jason Terry.

People that say Wall "Needs" a superstar is also not correct. If you replace Beal over the last 2 seasons with any number of very good, but non-elite guards/wings then you have a different ball game. Substitute in Wes Matthews, Klay Thompson, Khris Middleton, or Gordon Heyward (you know, guys that actually play 70+ games and 30+MPG) And I think we're having a different discussion.

[DANNYLANDOVER]

Wall has never played with a legit, iso post scorer; a legit, prime, star scorer period; or a legit leader/vet -- outside of Pierce, at times. As a pass first, defensive point the way to decrease his turnovers; decrease his need to carry the offense alone; and way to increase his ability to focus on the defensive end is to give him one of the above (and a coach who game plans and practices accordingly). Wall works best when he isn't the team leader, but the team facilitator.

More excuses. Wall takes too many shots, by far the most on the team, even though he shoots poorly. He routinely takes pullup jumpers without anyone else touching the ball. And he has way too many careless turnovers.

Not excuses. Wall should be a leader. Wall should shoot better. The way to heal the team is to have an iso scorer who will convert more than our team does; can lead where Wall can't; can relied on to force and make shots where Wall can't; and will allow Wall to focus on defense. Give Wall a KG and a Ray Allen and you give the setting for Wall to shine. Otherwise, you are asking him to do that which he obviously can't do.

Yeah, because every other top PG has a KG ad Allen?

[thricethefun]

Nonsense. Nobody is asking Wall to bring the ball up the court and shoot a pullup j without anyone touching the ball. Nobody is asking Wall to jump to throw a pass when he doesn't even know who he is passing to.

I think I'm starting to follow what Barely Awake is trying to argue. If I'm correct, Barely, you are saying that we should view John Wall on the model of Rajon Rondo, i.e. that he's at his best when he plays in *that* mold, not the one he currently plays in. Do i have that right?

In which case, you're also saying that Rondo needed guys like KG and Ray Allen to be in a position where he showed how terrific he could be. Put Wall in a similar situation and you'll see him shine.

The only problem with that POV is that Rondo just had one of his better seasons, and he was on a bad team that didn't surround him w/ those kinds of players. He was also a little better in '09-10 (when Garnett, Pierce and Allen all had off years) than in '10-11 (when all 3 of them bounced back).

Above all, in the first part of 2014-15, when the Celtics were a transitional team without KG, Ray Allen or Paul Pierce -- and were about to trade him -- Rondo put up some of the best numbers of his career.

IOW, I can't see how your argument about Wall holds water, sorry.

You know, a better comparison might be Kidd. Kidd had a lot of very mediocre years offensively early in his career. But some of his best years came in a two-three year stretch from age 31-33 when he had a Prime Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson. He replicated this productivity/efficiency from 34-36 with Mavs and a Prime Dirk, Josh Howard, and Jason Terry.

People that say Wall "Needs" a superstar is also not correct. If you replace Beal over the last 2 seasons with any number of very good, but non-elite guards/wings then you have a different ball game. Substitute in Wes Matthews, Klay Thompson, Khris Middleton
, or Gordon Heyward (you know, guys that actually play 70+ games and 30+MPG) And I think we're having a different discussion.

Absolutely. It's telling that the best player that John has ever played with was 2014 Trevor Ariza

[TheSecretWeapon]

Gortat has been better all three of his seasons with the Wizards than Ariza was in 2013-14.

I blogged about the "supporting cast" late in the season. Wall's teammates were about average this season. For a "best player," he was a little below average.

[thricethefun]

Gortat has been better all three of his seasons with the Wizards than Ariza was in 2013-14.

I blogged about the "supporting cast" late in the season. Wall's teammates were about average this season. For a "best player," he was a little below average.

Gortat is decent but his actual impact is not often to the level of his numbers

[payitforward]

Gortat has been better all three of his seasons with the Wizards than Ariza was in 2013-14.

I blogged about the "supporting cast" late in the season. Wall's teammates were about average this season. For a "best player," he was a little below average.

Gortat is decent but his actual impact is not often to the level of his numbers

Impact on what?

[payitforward]

...You know, a better comparison might be Kidd....

See
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1441251&start=24

[thricethefun]

Gortat has been better all three of his seasons with the Wizards than Ariza was in 2013-14.

I blogged about the "supporting cast" late in the season. Wall's teammates were about average this season. For a "best player," he was a little below average.

Gortat is decent but his actual impact is not often to the level of his numbers

Impact on what?

The game

[TheSecretWeapon]

Gortat's impact on the game is precisely at the level of his numbers.

[payitforward]

Gortat is decent but his actual impact is not often to the level of his numbers

Impact on what?

The game

What TSW says just above. And this is true by definition: wins and losses are 100% the product of the numbers each player puts up individually. You add them up for each team, and they never fail to produce exact results.

Duh.

[thricethefun]

Impact on what?

The game

What TSW says just above. And this is true by definition: wins and losses are 100% the product of the numbers each player puts up individually. You add them up for each team, and they never fail to produce exact results.

Duh.

Not true at all. Ever hear of intangibles? Hustle? Leadership? Look at players like Cousins. Has had historically great numbers but his attitude and lack of hustle at times has held his team back.

[TheSecretWeapon]

The game

What TSW says just above. And this is true by definition: wins and losses are 100% the product of the numbers each player puts up individually. You add them up for each team, and they never fail to produce exact results.

Duh.

Not true at all. Ever hear of intangibles? Hustle? Leadership? Look at players like Cousins. Has had historically great numbers but his attitude and lack of hustle at times has held his team back.

Things like hustle and leadership ALWAYS show up in the numbers somewhere, to the extent that they matter.

And, only a superficial glance at Cousins' numbers could lead someone to conclude they're historically great. His attitude and lack of hustle surely hurt his team -- and show up in the numbers. However, his easily measurable on-court play is problematic as well, specifically his poor shooting, horrific shot selection and rampant turnovers. He uses roughly a third of his team's possessions when he's in the game, and he does so at below-average efficiency.

[pcbothwel]

...You know, a better comparison might be Kidd....

See
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1441251&start=24

Ehhh. I dont disagree with TSW, but I still dont think the comparison is a bad one. Im sure there are players that might resemble Wall SLIGHTLY better than Kidd, but I took into account their style of play. Bigger, Faster, pure Floor general Point Guards that can play elite defense, but are not skilled scorers/shooters with any efficiency. They both shot around 33% from three and 80% from the FT line.

Wall has a higher usage (26.5% vs 20%)
Wall has a lower TOV% (17.5% vs 19%)
Wall has a higher AST% (41.6% vs 38.6%)
Wall has a higher TS (.51 vs .49)

Per 100 Possessions:
Wall scores more (26 pts vs 19 pts)
Wall turns it over slightly more (5.3 vs 4.5), but that makes sense with the higher usage

To me, the two things that stand out the most offensively (TSW, feel free to slap my hand) is that :

1) Wall averages (per 100 possessions) 6.6 rebounds (0.8 Offensive) while Kidd averaged 8.6 (2.4 offensive). But I have to think that the style of play in the 90's and early 2000's allowed Kidd to play closer to the basket and grab boards, whereas Wall is always on the perimeter.
*** I should note that I believe a lot of defensive rebounding is a fluff stat that has very little to do with a players effectiveness.

2) Wall averages (per 100 possessions) 21 FGA, yet only has a 16% 3PAr, while Kidd averages 17 FGA and has a 26% 3PAr. So Wall is taking 1 less 3PA and 5.5 more 2PA... That is very fixable and would easily be solved by having another legit scorer around him and Brooks keeping on him about minimizing the ISO 2PA.

[barelyawake]

Nonsense. Nobody is asking Wall to bring the ball up the court and shoot a pullup j without anyone touching the ball. Nobody is asking Wall to jump to throw a pass when he doesn't even know who he is passing to.

I think I'm starting to follow what Barely Awake is trying to argue. If I'm correct, Barely, you are saying that we should view John Wall on the model of Rajon Rondo, i.e. that he's at his best when he plays in *that* mold, not the one he currently plays in. Do i have that right?

In which case, you're also saying that Rondo needed guys like KG and Ray Allen to be in a position where he showed how terrific he could be. Put Wall in a similar situation and you'll see him shine.

The only problem with that POV is that Rondo just had one of his better seasons, and he was on a bad team that didn't surround him w/ those kinds of players. He was also a little better in '09-10 (when Garnett, Pierce and Allen all had off years) than in '10-11 (when all 3 of them bounced back).

Above all, in the first part of 2014-15, when the Celtics were a transitional team without KG, Ray Allen or Paul Pierce -- and were about to trade him -- Rondo put up some of the best numbers of his career.

IOW, I can't see how your argument about Wall holds water, sorry.

You know, a better comparison might be Kidd. Kidd had a lot of very mediocre years offensively early in his career. But some of his best years came in a two-three year stretch from age 31-33 when he had a Prime Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson. He replicated this productivity/efficiency from 34-36 with Mavs and a Prime Dirk, Josh Howard, and Jason Terry.

People that say Wall "Needs" a superstar is also not correct. If you replace Beal over the last 2 seasons with any number of very good, but non-elite guards/wings then you have a different ball game. Substitute in Wes Matthews, Klay Thompson, Khris Middleton, or Gordon Heyward (you know, guys that actually play 70+ games and 30+MPG) And I think we're having a different discussion.

Made a complete mistake posting again. One I will rectify. The reason all the old posters left wasn't because of Hands, it's because of other dour posters who frankly have sapped all the charm, and wit, out of this page.

However, my boring response in kind will be:

A) Kidd is a fitting example as well.
B) Rondo played with a "historically" good Cousins finishing his passes. Wall hasn't.
C) Rondo hasn't been considered an MVP, even with Cousins. He only was when his role was reduced to defense, distribution, and cutting (because he was playing to his strengths and helping the team win, versus getting himself stats).
D) Stats have never been good at showing defensive effort.
E) Leadership is not reflected in the numbers. If it was, then Nate's argument that Dudley could easily be plugged in for Pierce would have held water (injury aside). You can't calculate how much what is said in the locker room, or the mere presence of hofer on the squad, affects a team's belief in itself.

Tear it apart... Gone...

[tontoz]

Made a complete mistake posting again. One I will rectify. The reason all the old posters left wasn't because of Hands, it's because of other dour posters who frankly have sapped all the charm, and wit, out of this page.

However, my boring response in kind will be:

A) Kidd is a fitting example as well.
B) Rondo played with a "historically" good Cousins finishing his passes. Wall hasn't.
C) Rondo hasn't been considered an MVP, even with Cousins. He only was when his role was reduced to defense, distribution, and cutting (because he was playing to his strengths and helping the team win, versus getting himself stats).
D) Stats have never been good at showing defensive effort.
E) Leadership is not reflected in the numbers. If it was, then Nate's argument that Dudley could easily be plugged in for Pierce would have held water (injury aside). You can't calculate how much what is said in the locker room, or the mere presence of hofer on the squad, affects a team's belief in itself.

Tear it apart... Gone...

Kidd never took 17.5 shots per game in his entire career. In his prime he was never even close to that. He also took far fewer long 2s as a percentage of his shots. But I know you don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions.

The rest of the team shot far better than Wall did so the bad teammate excuse just doesn't work.

Cousins is "historically good" at what? Rebounding maybe but certainly not shooting from the field. His EFG of 47.7% this season was 9% worse than Gortat.

[tontoz]

Guess i'll put this here.

John Wall has undergone surgery to excise calcific deposits in his left patella tendon. The surgery will help eliminate pain and assist healing.

Wall will immediately begin rehab and is expected to be ready for the start of the 16-17 season.

The Washington Wizards missed the 2016 NBA Playoffs.

[LyricalRico]

Guess i'll put this here.

John Wall has undergone surgery to excise calcific deposits in his left patella tendon. The surgery will help eliminate pain and assist healing.

Wall will immediately begin rehab and is expected to be ready for the start of the 16-17 season.

The Washington Wizards missed the 2016 NBA Playoffs.

Ah, beat me to it. Guess I can still post the link.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wizards-insider/wp/2016/05/05/john-wall-has-surgery-on-both-knees-wizards-say-hell-be-ready-for-start-of-next-season/

Sounds like the right knee was just routine cleanup, but the left might be more of an issue.

[80sballboy]

Guess i'll put this here.

John Wall has undergone surgery to excise calcific deposits in his left patella tendon. The surgery will help eliminate pain and assist healing.

Wall will immediately begin rehab and is expected to be ready for the start of the 16-17 season.

The Washington Wizards missed the 2016 NBA Playoffs.

Ah, beat me to it. Guess I can still post the link.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wizards-insider/wp/2016/05/05/john-wall-has-surgery-on-both-knees-wizards-say-hell-be-ready-for-start-of-next-season/

Sounds like the right knee was just routine cleanup, but the left might be more of an issue.

That would explain why he favors jumping off his right leg to dunk with his left hand.

[bondom34]

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