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Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37)

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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#981 » by ezzzp » Fri May 6, 2016 1:56 am

Xatticus wrote:
ezzzp wrote:Its important to understand the higher salaries as %'s within a rapidly growing cap; not as a dollar for dollar comparison to prior salaries.

A $10m salary in 2015-16 $70m cap is a 14% of cap player; but a $10m salary in next years $92m cap is an 11% of cap player...the cap will jump again next summer and will remain at those levels moving forward. While players will earn higher amounts, those amounts remain proportional to the salary cap (which functions proportionately to the NBA's total revenue).

Its kind of like when really old people that can't adapt to modern conditions think that paying more than .25 cents for a gallon of milk is a ripoff.


Right. And the cap figure is calculated based on league revenue. None of which has any bearing on the value of a max contract, as the figures are derived from service time and as a percentage of the salary cap. The contracts that will be handed out this summer are going to be dictated by the economic conditions (supply and demand) of this summer. That there is any conjecture regarding Harrison Barnes or Evan Fournier as potential max contract recipients is a testament to this. In the long-term, this won't make these contracts any more palatable.

Just two summers ago, Kyle Lowry only managed a three-year deal at 12 million per (less than two-thirds of what he'd have earned on a max deal over the same duration), because of the market conditions at that time. If that 28-year-old Lowry were entering this free agency market, he would have the opportunity to select from no less than a half-dozen max contract offers.

Ideally, it would have been beneficial to lock up the team's prized assets under the previous economic conditions. This is why I thought the timing of the Harris trade was dreadful, and this is why I am hopeful that the path forward is via trade. Free agency is going to be a minefield. In an average off-season, it is very difficult to get value for your money through free agency. This summer, it will be next to impossible unless you are fortunate enough to land a player whose on-court value exceeds the limitations of a maximum contract.


Technically maximum player salaries are based on a 42.14% of Basketball Related Income (BRI) - but the salary cap is close enough to use.

Speculation on emerging talent is a formidable market dynamic. Harrison Barnes and Evan Fournier, like many young players at that pivotal 3-4th season free agency stage are two of the emerging players with the highest probability of untapped talent and low risk intangibles (such as injury history or personality issues). Thus the speculation of what they "could earn."

Nobody knows what these players will become, so there is absolutely nothing to quantify what will or won't be a palatable contract in the future. There is nothing that can predict that Fournier's production at $23m (if he gets that) won't be a better value than Harris' production at $17.2m next season. There are as many examples of serious underpays (Curry, Carroll, etc) as there are of serious overpays (Asik, Matthews, etc).
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#982 » by Xatticus » Fri May 6, 2016 2:54 am

ezzzp wrote:Technically maximum player salaries are based on a 42.14% of Basketball Related Income (BRI) - but the salary cap is close enough to use.

Speculation on emerging talent is a formidable market dynamic. Harrison Barnes and Evan Fournier, like many young players at that pivotal 3-4th season free agency stage are two of the emerging players with the highest probability of untapped talent and low risk intangibles (such as injury history or personality issues). Thus the speculation of what they "could earn."

Nobody knows what these players will become, so there is absolutely nothing to quantify what will or won't be a palatable contract in the future. There is nothing that can predict that Fournier's production at $23m (if he gets that) won't be a better value than Harris' production at $17.2m next season. There are as many examples of serious underpays (Curry, Carroll, etc) as there are of serious overpays (Asik, Matthews, etc).


I'm not going to make this some long-winded diatribe on semantics or relativity, but to the bolded point above, that is the entire purpose of statistical analysis. It's value isn't in telling you what already happened. Somebody won and somebody lost. The value lies in its ability to predict what will happen.

It's a curious position to repeatedly post charts in an effort to support your own views, while attempting to cite the unpredictable nature of the future to undermine the positions of others.

If you believe that Fournier has the potential to be worth a max contract offer. Then state as much. I see a player that has one plus skill at the NBA level, that will always be a significant defensive liability. I wouldn't go over 12 million per season, and I'm absolutely convinced that a max contract would become an albatross before the ink even dried.
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#983 » by ezzzp » Fri May 6, 2016 6:01 am

Xatticus wrote:I'm not going to make this some long-winded diatribe on semantics or relativity, but to the bolded point above, that is the entire purpose of statistical analysis. It's value isn't in telling you what already happened. Somebody won and somebody lost. The value lies in its ability to predict what will happen.

It's a curious position to repeatedly post charts in an effort to support your own views, while attempting to cite the unpredictable nature of the future to undermine the positions of others.

If you believe that Fournier has the potential to be worth a max contract offer. Then state as much. I see a player that has one plus skill at the NBA level, that will always be a significant defensive liability. I wouldn't go over 12 million per season, and I'm absolutely convinced that a max contract would become an albatross before the ink even dried.


I totally disagree with your assessment of where the exclusive value of stats lies; but arguing that is boring and a waste of time.

It's a curious position that you repeatedly make long winded diatribes in an effort to support your own views, while attempting to disqualify historical facts that undermine your position on practically a daily basis.

If you take the time to actually read the post that you just replied to, you'll see that not only did I not say Fournier was getting a max, I made it a point to twice question the notion that he would: "could earn" notice that its in quotes...and later emphasizing (if he gets that).

In regards to your $12m contract for Fournier; that first year salary would be 13% of the salary cap. I think that's too low, I would price him somewhere between 17% to 19% of the cap ($15.6m to $17.5m).

Here are a variety of wings/forwards that signed contracts the past offseason; with the salary cap at $70m. The link is a comparison of their contract year to Fournier's.

Tobias Harris (4y / $16m per) 22.8% of salary cap
Harris 23 vs Fournier 23

Khris Middelton (5y / $14m per) 20% of salary cap
Middleton 23 vs Fournier 23

Demarre Carroll (4y / $15m per) 21.4% of salary cap
Carroll 28 vs Fournier 23

Jae Crowder (5y / $7m per) 10% of salary cap
Crowder 24 vs Fournier 23

Danny Green (4y / $11.25m per) 16% of salary cap
Green 27 vs Fournier 23

Al-Farouq Aminu (4y / $7.5m) 10.7% of salary cap
Aminu 24 vs Fournier 23
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#984 » by Skin » Fri May 6, 2016 8:22 am

Bensational wrote:
Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:Teague! In that hypothetical situation above with Horford and Durant, we could trade Vuc for Teague, and have a quality PG who's contract expires after that season and leaves us room to chase another big FA.

But I can't see Atlanta helping us add a final piece like that as a conference rival.

Here's a thought along those lines.. Just a spur of the moment thought...

Trade for Jrue Holiday.

- Amid grumblings that NOR was duped by PHI who knew Holiday was damaged goods....
- Holiday being used as a bench player last season...
- Injury prone label...
- NOR's success level failing expectations...
- Tim Frazier came on strong for them in the last 2 months.

These are a few reasons why Holiday may be available in trade talks. But why would we want him?

- He's still just 25 years old.
- His season got cut short this year, but that was due to an eye injury.. not a leg injury.
- Had a slow start to the season, but was on fire towards the end. http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/3995/jrue-holiday
- Fits the defensive mold that Skiles prefers, while also being an effective shooter. 37% career 3P%.
- Will be a FA in 2017. Low risk/Short term investment.
- Didn't make a fuss coming off the bench... was a contender for 6th man award.

Vucevic is a guy that would probably get that deal done. Vuc is a guy that fits next to Anthony Davis. NOR fans showed interest in the Trades and Transactions Forum.


I'm particularly averse to taking on injured players, so I'm probably the worst person to pitch that idea to, haha.

I'd want Jrue + Asik + 6 for Vuc + Watson + 11.

But even I question question the value of that deal.

Edit - no, scrap that. I hate that deal. Unless Henny sees a clear cut star available at #6.

I love that deal, haha. Moving up from 11 to 6 seals the deal for me.

I honestly don't think NOR would accept that. Would love to come out of this draft with Heild or Dunn.
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#985 » by Xatticus » Fri May 6, 2016 3:05 pm

ezzzp wrote:I totally disagree with your assessment of where the exclusive value of stats lies; but arguing that is boring and a waste of time.


It's not my assessment. This is what was taught to me when I was studying statistics. Dispute this if you wish, but this is a fundamental principle of statistics. You can conjure up any numbers you like, but they mean absolutely nothing if they offer no predictive value. This is why we do research.

ezzzp wrote:It's a curious position that you repeatedly make long winded diatribes in an effort to support your own views, while attempting to disqualify historical facts that undermine your position on practically a daily basis.


You keep saying this. Who are you trying to convince?

ezzzp wrote:If you take the time to actually read the post that you just replied to, you'll see that not only did I not say Fournier was getting a max, I made it a point to twice question the notion that he would: "could earn" notice that its in quotes...and later emphasizing (if he gets that).


And I didn't say you did. I mentioned the danger in such a hypothetical, which you contested. So I asked you to clarify your position. If you don't think he is worth a max contract (or something close to it), then why argue the point at all?

ezzzp wrote:In regards to your $12m contract for Fournier; that first year salary would be 13% of the salary cap. I think that's too low, I would price him somewhere between 17% to 19% of the cap ($15.6m to $17.5m).

Here are a variety of wings/forwards that signed contracts the past offseason; with the salary cap at $70m. The link is a comparison of their contract year to Fournier's.

Tobias Harris (4y / $16m per) 22.8% of salary cap
Harris 23 vs Fournier 23

Khris Middelton (5y / $14m per) 20% of salary cap
Middleton 23 vs Fournier 23

Demarre Carroll (4y / $15m per) 21.4% of salary cap
Carroll 28 vs Fournier 23

Jae Crowder (5y / $7m per) 10% of salary cap
Crowder 24 vs Fournier 23

Danny Green (4y / $11.25m per) 16% of salary cap
Green 27 vs Fournier 23

Al-Farouq Aminu (4y / $7.5m) 10.7% of salary cap
Aminu 24 vs Fournier 23


None of these players are Evan Fournier. Middleton, Carroll, Crowder, Green, and Aminu are all considered very good and versatile defenders. Tobias Harris' contract was dumped (for nothing) less than a year later. Every one of those contracts were signed with the knowledge of the impending cap increases.
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#986 » by Magicman125 » Fri May 6, 2016 3:30 pm

Xatticus wrote:
ezzzp wrote:I totally disagree with your assessment of where the exclusive value of stats lies; but arguing that is boring and a waste of time.


It's not my assessment. This is what was taught to me when I was studying statistics. Dispute this if you wish, but this is a fundamental principle of statistics. You can conjure up any numbers you like, but they mean absolutely nothing if they offer no predictive value. This is why we do research.

ezzzp wrote:It's a curious position that you repeatedly make long winded diatribes in an effort to support your own views, while attempting to disqualify historical facts that undermine your position on practically a daily basis.


You keep saying this. Who are you trying to convince?

ezzzp wrote:If you take the time to actually read the post that you just replied to, you'll see that not only did I not say Fournier was getting a max, I made it a point to twice question the notion that he would: "could earn" notice that its in quotes...and later emphasizing (if he gets that).


And I didn't say you did. I mentioned the danger in such a hypothetical, which you contested. So I asked you to clarify your position. If you don't think he is worth a max contract (or something close to it), then why argue the point at all?

ezzzp wrote:In regards to your $12m contract for Fournier; that first year salary would be 13% of the salary cap. I think that's too low, I would price him somewhere between 17% to 19% of the cap ($15.6m to $17.5m).

Here are a variety of wings/forwards that signed contracts the past offseason; with the salary cap at $70m. The link is a comparison of their contract year to Fournier's.

Tobias Harris (4y / $16m per) 22.8% of salary cap
Harris 23 vs Fournier 23

Khris Middelton (5y / $14m per) 20% of salary cap
Middleton 23 vs Fournier 23

Demarre Carroll (4y / $15m per) 21.4% of salary cap
Carroll 28 vs Fournier 23

Jae Crowder (5y / $7m per) 10% of salary cap
Crowder 24 vs Fournier 23

Danny Green (4y / $11.25m per) 16% of salary cap
Green 27 vs Fournier 23

Al-Farouq Aminu (4y / $7.5m) 10.7% of salary cap
Aminu 24 vs Fournier 23


None of these players are Evan Fournier. Middleton, Carroll, Crowder, Green, and Aminu are all considered very good and versatile defenders. Tobias Harris' contract was dumped (for nothing) less than a year later. Every one of those contracts were signed with the knowledge of the impending cap increases.


Agreed, he's not as good defensively as any of these players (except maybe Harris). I think the offers he'll get will be more than I personally think he is worth.

I'd look at options to sign and trade him to fill needs (defensive bigs, scoring backup point guard, 3&D backup 3)
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#987 » by fendilim » Fri May 6, 2016 3:33 pm

Magicman125 wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
ezzzp wrote:I totally disagree with your assessment of where the exclusive value of stats lies; but arguing that is boring and a waste of time.


It's not my assessment. This is what was taught to me when I was studying statistics. Dispute this if you wish, but this is a fundamental principle of statistics. You can conjure up any numbers you like, but they mean absolutely nothing if they offer no predictive value. This is why we do research.

ezzzp wrote:It's a curious position that you repeatedly make long winded diatribes in an effort to support your own views, while attempting to disqualify historical facts that undermine your position on practically a daily basis.


You keep saying this. Who are you trying to convince?

ezzzp wrote:If you take the time to actually read the post that you just replied to, you'll see that not only did I not say Fournier was getting a max, I made it a point to twice question the notion that he would: "could earn" notice that its in quotes...and later emphasizing (if he gets that).


And I didn't say you did. I mentioned the danger in such a hypothetical, which you contested. So I asked you to clarify your position. If you don't think he is worth a max contract (or something close to it), then why argue the point at all?

ezzzp wrote:In regards to your $12m contract for Fournier; that first year salary would be 13% of the salary cap. I think that's too low, I would price him somewhere between 17% to 19% of the cap ($15.6m to $17.5m).

Here are a variety of wings/forwards that signed contracts the past offseason; with the salary cap at $70m. The link is a comparison of their contract year to Fournier's.

Tobias Harris (4y / $16m per) 22.8% of salary cap
Harris 23 vs Fournier 23

Khris Middelton (5y / $14m per) 20% of salary cap
Middleton 23 vs Fournier 23

Demarre Carroll (4y / $15m per) 21.4% of salary cap
Carroll 28 vs Fournier 23

Jae Crowder (5y / $7m per) 10% of salary cap
Crowder 24 vs Fournier 23

Danny Green (4y / $11.25m per) 16% of salary cap
Green 27 vs Fournier 23

Al-Farouq Aminu (4y / $7.5m) 10.7% of salary cap
Aminu 24 vs Fournier 23


None of these players are Evan Fournier. Middleton, Carroll, Crowder, Green, and Aminu are all considered very good and versatile defenders. Tobias Harris' contract was dumped (for nothing) less than a year later. Every one of those contracts were signed with the knowledge of the impending cap increases.


Agreed, he's not as good defensively as any of these players (except maybe Harris). I think the offers he'll get will be more than I personally think he is worth.

I'd look at options to sign and trade him to fill needs (defensive bigs, scoring backup point guard, 3&D backup 3)
He's arguably better, offensively, than guys like Danny Green and Aminu though.


For a team that lacks a PREMIUM go-to scorer, a guy like Fournier is too valuable to lose, especially if we're just talking about just giving him 10-15% of the cap, and not the max.
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#988 » by Def Swami » Fri May 6, 2016 4:16 pm

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MikePradaSBN/status/728619041066242048[/tweet]
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#989 » by Patrick1978 » Fri May 6, 2016 4:29 pm

Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:
Skin wrote:Here's a thought along those lines.. Just a spur of the moment thought...

Trade for Jrue Holiday.

- Amid grumblings that NOR was duped by PHI who knew Holiday was damaged goods....
- Holiday being used as a bench player last season...
- Injury prone label...
- NOR's success level failing expectations...
- Tim Frazier came on strong for them in the last 2 months.

These are a few reasons why Holiday may be available in trade talks. But why would we want him?

- He's still just 25 years old.
- His season got cut short this year, but that was due to an eye injury.. not a leg injury.
- Had a slow start to the season, but was on fire towards the end. http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/3995/jrue-holiday
- Fits the defensive mold that Skiles prefers, while also being an effective shooter. 37% career 3P%.
- Will be a FA in 2017. Low risk/Short term investment.
- Didn't make a fuss coming off the bench... was a contender for 6th man award.

Vucevic is a guy that would probably get that deal done. Vuc is a guy that fits next to Anthony Davis. NOR fans showed interest in the Trades and Transactions Forum.


I'm particularly averse to taking on injured players, so I'm probably the worst person to pitch that idea to, haha.

I'd want Jrue + Asik + 6 for Vuc + Watson + 11.

But even I question question the value of that deal.

Edit - no, scrap that. I hate that deal. Unless Henny sees a clear cut star available at #6.

I love that deal, haha. Moving up from 11 to 6 seals the deal for me.

I honestly don't think NOR would accept that. Would love to come out of this draft with Heild or Dunn.

i think with vuc+elf+11 the pelicans will accept that deal
Hield or murray at 6 would be great.
Draft jake layman in the Second round,6f9,good shooter who plays sf but can also play the 4 in smallball lineups

Holiday /murray/watson
Oladipo/Hezonja/Harvey
Gordon/fournier/layman
Horford/illy/
Noah/smith/dedmon
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#990 » by j-ragg » Fri May 6, 2016 4:57 pm

Jamal Murray and Hezonja in the second unit would light teams up with their shooting.


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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#991 » by Patrick1978 » Fri May 6, 2016 5:09 pm

j-ragg wrote:Jamal Murray and Hezonja in the second unit would light teams up with their shooting.


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Absolutely :D
Scoring punch of the bench :nod:
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#992 » by ezzzp » Fri May 6, 2016 6:19 pm

ezzzp wrote:I totally disagree with your assessment of where the exclusive value of stats lies; but arguing that is boring and a waste of time.

Xatticus wrote:It's not my assessment. This is what was taught to me when I was studying statistics. Dispute this if you wish, but this is a fundamental principle of statistics. You can conjure up any numbers you like, but they mean absolutely nothing if they offer no predictive value. This is why we do research.


Why do you feel the urge to constantly say that you studied basic statistics? Who cares - anyone with an online business degree from Devry University likely did as well.


ezzzp wrote:It's a curious position that you repeatedly make long winded diatribes in an effort to support your own views, while attempting to disqualify historical facts that undermine your position on practically a daily basis.

Xatticus wrote:You keep saying this. Who are you trying to convince?


Smh...


ezzzp wrote:If you take the time to actually read the post that you just replied to, you'll see that not only did I not say Fournier was getting a max, I made it a point to twice question the notion that he would: "could earn" notice that its in quotes...and later emphasizing (if he gets that).

Xatticus wrote:And I didn't say you did. I mentioned the danger in such a hypothetical, which you contested. So I asked you to clarify your position. If you don't think he is worth a max contract (or something close to it), then why argue the point at all?


My position has been clarified to you numerous times. There is a lot of room between a max contract $23m and what you have valued him at ($12m). The range I gave you, $15.6m to $17.5m, is NOT something close to a $23m max contract.


ezzzp wrote:In regards to your $12m contract for Fournier; that first year salary would be 13% of the salary cap. I think that's too low, I would price him somewhere between 17% to 19% of the cap ($15.6m to $17.5m).

Here are a variety of wings/forwards that signed contracts the past offseason; with the salary cap at $70m. The link is a comparison of their contract year to Fournier's.

Tobias Harris (4y / $16m per) 22.8% of salary cap
Harris 23 vs Fournier 23

Khris Middelton (5y / $14m per) 20% of salary cap
Middleton 23 vs Fournier 23

Demarre Carroll (4y / $15m per) 21.4% of salary cap
Carroll 28 vs Fournier 23

Jae Crowder (5y / $7m per) 10% of salary cap
Crowder 24 vs Fournier 23

Danny Green (4y / $11.25m per) 16% of salary cap
Green 27 vs Fournier 23

Al-Farouq Aminu (4y / $7.5m) 10.7% of salary cap
Aminu 24 vs Fournier 23

Xatticus wrote:None of these players are Evan Fournier. Middleton, Carroll, Crowder, Green, and Aminu are all considered very good and versatile defenders. Tobias Harris' contract was dumped (for nothing) less than a year later. Every one of those contracts were signed with the knowledge of the impending cap increases.


Middelton and Carroll are better players....and that is exactly why they got contracts that were 20% and 21.4% of the salary cap - and why I valued Fournier lower than them at 17-19%.

Crowder was a back up wing that never averaged above 20mpg his whole career. His contract was given under those conditions - this season (post contract) was his first with starters minutes and the reason why his contract is so low (the $ value of a back up).

Green took less money to stay with the Spurs

Tobias Harris' contract was not dumped, he was traded for cap space to realign salary towards more compatible and more immediate needs. What results from that cap space will be the return.
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#993 » by ezzzp » Fri May 6, 2016 6:39 pm

Magicman125 wrote:
Xatticus wrote:


Agreed, he's not as good defensively as any of these players (except maybe Harris). I think the offers he'll get will be more than I personally think he is worth.

I'd look at options to sign and trade him to fill needs (defensive bigs, scoring backup point guard, 3&D backup 3)


He is worth what someone is willing to pay for him. Worth is context specific and every single team has a very unique context so that value has wide margins.

The type of thinking that undervalues Fournier was exactly the type of posters that adamantly insisted that there was no way Tobias Harris would get the type of contract he got...its also the exact type of thinking by people who replied to the Sentinel's poll that said no way Shaq or any NBA player was worth over $100m.

S&T are not possible with restricted free agents. It would have to be a deal that Fournier dictates the contract size and his chosen destination.
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#994 » by Skin » Fri May 6, 2016 6:40 pm

Patrick1978 wrote:
Skin wrote:
Bensational wrote:
I'm particularly averse to taking on injured players, so I'm probably the worst person to pitch that idea to, haha.

I'd want Jrue + Asik + 6 for Vuc + Watson + 11.

But even I question question the value of that deal.

Edit - no, scrap that. I hate that deal. Unless Henny sees a clear cut star available at #6.

I love that deal, haha. Moving up from 11 to 6 seals the deal for me.

I honestly don't think NOR would accept that. Would love to come out of this draft with Heild or Dunn.

i think with vuc+elf+11 the pelicans will accept that deal
Hield or murray at 6 would be great.
Draft jake layman in the Second round,6f9,good shooter who plays sf but can also play the 4 in smallball lineups

Holiday /murray/watson
Oladipo/Hezonja/Harvey
Gordon/fournier/layman
Horford/illy/
Noah/smith/dedmon

I like what you're thinking!

That's probably not gonna attract Horford and Asik is probably better than Noah though...

Another thought is using #6 and turning that around in another trade.

#6 for Noel?

Holiday (25) / Oladipo (24) / Hezonja (21) / Gordon (20) / Noel (22)

That's a young complete team that can grow together. Supplement that with veteran role players... :nod:
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#995 » by Magicman125 » Fri May 6, 2016 6:46 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Magicman125 wrote:
Xatticus wrote:


Agreed, he's not as good defensively as any of these players (except maybe Harris). I think the offers he'll get will be more than I personally think he is worth.

I'd look at options to sign and trade him to fill needs (defensive bigs, scoring backup point guard, 3&D backup 3)


He is worth what someone is willing to pay for him. Worth is context specific and every single team has a very unique context so that value has wide margins.

The type of thinking that undervalues Fournier was exactly the type of posters that adamantly insisted that there was no way Tobias Harris would get the type of contract he got...its also the exact type of thinking by people who replied to the Sentinel's poll that said no way Shaq or any NBA player was worth over $100m.

S&T are not possible with restricted free agents. It would have to be a deal that Fournier dictates the contract size and his chosen destination.


Based on my understanding, that doesn't mean it's not possible. I don't care what size contract he gets if he's sent to a destination of his choice that will give us a semi-useful return (even if it's not ideal) for our roster (which has enough holes that it shouldn't be hard to find a partner willing to give up some value that would fill one of said needs [bench scoring at the 1, defensive bigs, 3&D backup wing/forward])

EDIT: It's also been my impression that Hennigan has sent people to destinations that they approve of in most of his trades, regardless of the contract status of the player as a show of good faith towards both the player (but perhaps more importantly) and the agent as well.
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#996 » by ezzzp » Fri May 6, 2016 7:12 pm

Magicman125 wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Magicman125 wrote:
Agreed, he's not as good defensively as any of these players (except maybe Harris). I think the offers he'll get will be more than I personally think he is worth.

I'd look at options to sign and trade him to fill needs (defensive bigs, scoring backup point guard, 3&D backup 3)


He is worth what someone is willing to pay for him. Worth is context specific and every single team has a very unique context so that value has wide margins.

The type of thinking that undervalues Fournier was exactly the type of posters that adamantly insisted that there was no way Tobias Harris would get the type of contract he got...its also the exact type of thinking by people who replied to the Sentinel's poll that said no way Shaq or any NBA player was worth over $100m.

S&T are not possible with restricted free agents. It would have to be a deal that Fournier dictates the contract size and his chosen destination.


Based on my understanding, that doesn't mean it's not possible. I don't care what size contract he gets if he's sent to a destination of his choice that will give us a semi-useful return (even if it's not ideal) for our roster (which has enough holes that it shouldn't be hard to find a partner willing to give up some value that would fill one of said needs [bench scoring at the 1, defensive bigs, 3&D backup wing/forward])

EDIT: It's also been my impression that Hennigan has sent people to destinations that they approve of in most of his trades, regardless of the contract status of the player as a show of good faith towards both the player (but perhaps more importantly) and the agent as well.


Its possible to work around the CBA restrictions, it just very rarely gets the franchise a good return; and why GM's prefer to match and retain the asset if they have the cap flexibility to do so.

Once Fournier gets offers, he'll pick the ones he wants - and let RH know...and they'll try to work something out if its to both of their benefits.

But RH isn't going to take a contract/player he doesn't want just to accommodate Fournier; and Fournier isn't going to go to a place that he doesn't get the most money and/or the destination of choice to accommodate Hennigan's best trade option.
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#997 » by Magicman125 » Fri May 6, 2016 7:22 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Magicman125 wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
He is worth what someone is willing to pay for him. Worth is context specific and every single team has a very unique context so that value has wide margins.

The type of thinking that undervalues Fournier was exactly the type of posters that adamantly insisted that there was no way Tobias Harris would get the type of contract he got...its also the exact type of thinking by people who replied to the Sentinel's poll that said no way Shaq or any NBA player was worth over $100m.

S&T are not possible with restricted free agents. It would have to be a deal that Fournier dictates the contract size and his chosen destination.


Based on my understanding, that doesn't mean it's not possible. I don't care what size contract he gets if he's sent to a destination of his choice that will give us a semi-useful return (even if it's not ideal) for our roster (which has enough holes that it shouldn't be hard to find a partner willing to give up some value that would fill one of said needs [bench scoring at the 1, defensive bigs, 3&D backup wing/forward])

EDIT: It's also been my impression that Hennigan has sent people to destinations that they approve of in most of his trades, regardless of the contract status of the player as a show of good faith towards both the player (but perhaps more importantly) and the agent as well.


Its possible to work around the CBA restrictions, it just very rarely gets the franchise a good return; and why GM's prefer to match and retain the asset if they have the cap flexibility to do so.

Once Fournier gets offers, he'll pick the ones he wants - and let RH know...and they'll try to work something out if its to both of their benefits.

But RH isn't going to take a contract/player he doesn't want just to accommodate Fournier; and Fournier isn't going to go to a place that he doesn't get the most money and/or the destination of choice to accommodate Hennigan's best trade option.


I don't disagree with you, I just think options may present themselves that don't look so bad to Hennigan. I think this will be even likelier if free agency doesn't allow us to make a very big splash, I think a move of this nature may occur in order to apply some form of roster improvement aside from just off-season development of our current players. Hennigan will be expected to show results next season or he'll be on the hot seat for sure IMO, and this may be an avenue to shake things up is all I'm saying. I realize the options presented won't yield the most high-value options for us, but they may still be enticing enough to pursue.
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#998 » by Def Swami » Sun May 8, 2016 10:42 pm

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ZachKleinWSB/status/729439381971451909[/tweet]
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#999 » by Bensational » Sun May 8, 2016 11:01 pm

Def Swami wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/ZachKleinWSB/status/729439381971451909[/tweet]


The thing is, 'want' isn't an exclusive term. He could want to return to Atlanta, whilst also wanting to sign with another team/s.

This is why I find reporting on FAs around this time of year to be frustrating. Players are just gonna say whatever will appease the local media of that area, generally.
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Re: Orlando Magic Free Agency Guide (Cap Info UPDATED page 37) 

Post#1000 » by tiderulz » Mon May 9, 2016 12:24 am

Def Swami wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/ZachKleinWSB/status/729439381971451909[/tweet]


he laid an egg during the playoffs. His best bet for big money is to stay in Atlanta.

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