Not In The Face - The Jeremy Lin Thread 3 + 1

[13th Man]

Let's not blame any one single person for the loss of a game or the series. Lin was obviously one of the few players on the team that actually played well in the series and that's it.

I agree and that wasn't my intent. My intent was only to provide a counter balance to the view that his playoff performance provided a major boost in his value.

I think the playoffs did boost his value but don't deny that game 6 hurt it as well, hence why Clifford "punished" him in game 7. What I didn't like was that Marvin Williams played like crap the entire series sans 1 game yet still logged major minutes in game 7. Courtney Lee also disappeared in game 6 but Lin seemed to get the bulk of the blame. These guys were supposed to be way ahead in the importance depth chart.

Lin was huge in a bunch of games and definitely upped his performance from the regular season, hence why his minutes were higher as well. Clifford saw Lin as a major piece, top 3 in importance on the team, until game 6 that is.

He was getting recognition from the media as well as being a big factor in the series, so I wholeheartedly disagree with rally about downplaying his significance in the playoffs.

[rallydurham]

Lin fans are hopeless. I posted a long summary of teams i feel will be interested and someone said i sound like i don't watch the games lol. What on earth does the synopsis of teams who need a combo guard have to do with watching the games?

Lin didn't have a bounce back season. In many ways you could argue this was actually his worst season yet. I mean just look at the numbers and I think it's pretty clear. That doesnt mean he didn't fill a valuable role for us.

But he was a bit player on a team that got bounced in the first round. In fact, that's all he's ever done in his career sans a 15 game phenomena half a decade ago.

You need to quit with the narrative that other teams or players are holding him back.

And give it a rest with him being the reason we won g3-g5. He played a ROLE in those wins. A significantly smaller one than you are pretending. He played a rather large role in our g6 loss. You conveniently gloss over all the defensive mistakes he made in game 7.

One player does not win or lose games for a team, particularly one with a rather small role.

Lin was the 6th best player on the team. He was very valuable given his contract. Nothing more, nothing less. You guys just minimize the importance of the role guys play who don't have the ball in their hands all game.

You can't build a team around a point guard who isn't a particularly adept passer, is not a good shooter, and has weak ballhandling. His athleticism is top notch, hes good at getting to the line, he's a pretty good finisher around the basket. His defense is adequate. His real strength is his combination of size and athleticism.

Historically, taller point guards have tended to age well. But he is going to need to add a jumpshot or he's not going to have a calling card as his athleticism fades in his 30s.

[13th Man]

Lin fans are hopeless. I posted a long summary of teams i feel will be interested and someone said i sound like i don't watch the games lol. What on earth does the synopsis of teams who need a combo guard have to do with watching the games?

I thought that post was pretty insightful and your best post here but didn't respond to it because of the rules in place here where we're not supposed to be discussing his options outside of Charlotte. The other stuff from the post above I don't necessarily agree with but that's a difference of opinion.

[fatlever]

Lin was not being "punished" in game 7 for having a poor game 6.

[bws94]

Lin shot 41% FG and 21% 3PT in the playoffs with 2.6 ast and 1.6 tos. He was huge in Games 3 and 4 and had a nice Game 5, but taken as a whole I'm not sure he really increased his value much in the playoffs.

He laid an absolute egg in a massive Game 6 - 1-8 from the field, 3 TOs to 1 ast, 5 PFs in 24 minutes. If he showed up like he did in Games 3 though 5 then we would still be alive in the playoffs.

See, to me he had one bad game, game 6. And why shouldn't someone else show up like Marv or Courtney to help out Kemba and Al? Yes, Lin could have been one of many, but really, his efforts in pivotal games 3 and 4 at home were a huge reason why we won. Kemba laid a massive egg game 7, but he still had an overall good series. Lin had Isiah Thomas talking about his game as well as Kenny Smith doing a game 5 analysis of how he impacted that game on TNT. He was noticed. It goes beyond numbers. He came in and really gave the team a boost. His playoff games definitely helped him. He showed up as a big-game player.

[13th Man]

Lin was not being "punished" in game 7 for having a poor game 6.

I probably shouldn't have used that word as it does seem too direct. It's just my opinion but Clifford may have lost some confidence in Lin after game 6.

[bws94]

Lin fans are hopeless. I posted a long summary of teams i feel will be interested and someone said i sound like i don't watch the games lol. What on earth does the synopsis of teams who need a combo guard have to do with watching the games?

Lin didn't have a bounce back season. In many ways you could argue this was actually his worst season yet. I mean just look at the numbers and I think it's pretty clear. That doesnt mean he didn't fill a valuable role for us.

But he was a bit player on a team that got bounced in the first round. In fact, that's all he's ever done in his career sans a 15 game phenomena half a decade ago.

You need to quit with the narrative that other teams or players are holding him back.

And give it a rest with him being the reason we won g3-g5. He played a ROLE in those wins. A significantly smaller one than you are pretending. He played a rather large role in our g6 loss. You conveniently gloss over all the defensive mistakes he made in game 7.

One player does not win or lose games for a team, particularly one with a rather small role.

Lin was the 6th best player on the team. He was very valuable given his contract. Nothing more, nothing less. You guys just minimize the importance of the role guys play who don't have the ball in their hands all game.

You can't build a team around a point guard who isn't a particularly adept passer, is not a good shooter, and has weak ballhandling. His athleticism is top notch, hes good at getting to the line, he's a pretty good finisher around the basket. His defense is adequate. His real strength is his combination of size and athleticism.

Historically, taller point guards have tended to age well. But he is going to need to add a jumpshot or he's not going to have a calling card as his athleticism fades in his 30s.

You come across like Clutch of clutchfans. He's a guy that wanted to downplay LIn to get at his fans. That's all you're doing. Lin was one of the guys that contributed a lot on the team. Kemba and Batum the most, then guys like Marvin, Al, Lin and Lee with defense were all big contributors. But to put Lin fans in their place you constantly discount the many good things Lin contributed.

I don't think any team should be built around Lin, but he is definitely a guy who can help you win and sometimes in a big way. And you refuse to see that.

[bws94]

Lin was not being "punished" in game 7 for having a poor game 6.

I probably shouldn't have used that word as it does seem too direct. It's just my opinion but Clifford may have lost some confidence in Lin after game 6.

I don't think he did. I just think we were pummelled in the 3Q and Lin's regular time just didn't materialize. However, yes, Lin should have played more. Kemba had absolutely nothing in that game, so try your other guy. But it wouldn't have mattered. We were flattened in that game 2nd half.

[yosemiteben]

His playoff games definitely helped him. He showed up as a big-game player.

My honest assessment of what I think folks who don't follow CHA learned about Lin in the playoffs - he attacks the basket aggressively and picks up fouls where he is a nice FT shooter, he's a poor shooter and an especially poor perimeter shooter, and he's an ok wing defender but struggles with size.

[leeramundo]

So Lin fans aren't able to objectively say that Lin disappointed in Game 6?

Yes Kemba disappointed in his shooting in Games 3 and 5, but he also posted 12 assists and a total of 2 tos in those games, so he was still useful. We got very, very little from Lin in Game 6.

My only point in bringing it up is that, when assessing his value in the series, the last impression may prove to be an important one, and he did not provide a super favorable final impression.

He was pure garbage in game 6, but I don't see how you can say his playoff run didn't boost his value at all. He was great in 3 games. In games 3 and 4 he basically single-handedly turned the games around (not single-handedly won), without him, we probably don't win those. In game 5 he responded well to the double teaming and pressure, showed he can handle it. We arguably lose the series in 5 or would've even been swept if not for him. I'd say that'd boost his value a bit.

[TinmanZBoy]

Lin was not being "punished" in game 7 for having a poor game 6.

I probably shouldn't have used that word as it does seem too direct. It's just my opinion but Clifford may have lost some confidence in Lin after game 6.

I don't think Clifford lost his confidence in Lin... the team was crashed by heat on the board, obviously a coach with a clear mind would not play Lin, Kemba for long stretches... Play lin sit Kemba is a logical option, obviously coach did not take that route, he was still riding Kemba to hope he could turn it around... unfortunately, kemba had none in game 7...

[yosemiteben]

He was pure garbage in game 6, but I don't see how you can say his playoff run didn't boost his value at all. He was great in 3 games. In games 3 and 4 he basically single-handedly turned the games around (not single-handedly won), without him, we probably don't win those. In game 5 he responded well to the double teaming and pressure, showed he can handle it. We arguably lose the series in 5 or would've even been swept if not for him. I'd say that'd boost his value a bit.

But really what you just said is he played well in 3 games in a 7 game series. Offensively Lin in the playoffs was essentially the same as Lin in the regular season - poor shooting %'s, not great A:TO, solid attacking the basket and clutch on FTs.

[TinmanZBoy]

His playoff games definitely helped him. He showed up as a big-game player.

My honest assessment of what I think folks who don't follow CHA learned about Lin in the playoffs - he attacks the basket aggressively and picks up fouls where he is a nice FT shooter, he's a poor shooter and an especially poor perimeter shooter, and he's an ok wing defender but struggles with size.

you assessment is a little bit off though... just rewind the game 5, to see how Lin passed off double teams time and time again to get the team back on track, which Kemba could never do...
then you compare how Lin defended Dragic and how Kemba defended Dragic in the whole series... then u will see lin's value is more than what you can see...

[yosemiteben]

Is there enough evidence in this series that folks already predisposed toward liking Lin can make a reasonable argument that he has significant value? Yes

Is there enough evidence in this series that folks already predisposed against liking Lin can make a reasonable argument that his value is overstated? Yes

Will a team dramatically change their view of Lin based on his playoff performance? IMO, probably not.

[Travers]

Lin was not being "punished" in game 7 for having a poor game 6.

I probably shouldn't have used that word as it does seem too direct. It's just my opinion but Clifford may have lost some confidence in Lin after game 6.

Instead of losing confidence on Lin, it's Clifford himself's decision to rush Batum back cost the series.

[2k15]

Lin was not being "punished" in game 7 for having a poor game 6.

I probably shouldn't have used that word as it does seem too direct. It's just my opinion but Clifford may have lost some confidence in Lin after game 6.

Instead of losing confidence on Lin, it's Clifford himself's decision to rush Batum back cost the series.

Yeah I agree. Not playing Lin as much is more because Cliff was leaning on Batum more and it didn't work. Just feels like we didn't have a good game plan heading into game 7. We were supposed to rebound but we can't rebound. We are supposed to shoot but we can't shoot. Everything went against us and Cliff doesn't know how to adjust.

[13th Man]

His shooting is definitely hurting his stock the most, that and his poise under pressure (I know a lot of Lin fans don't agree with me on this one). This is why I wouldn't mind for him to stay here for another year or two where he can develop on these areas with less pressure on him than as a starter.

[2k15]

His shooting is definitely hurting his stock the most, that and his poise under pressure (I know a lot of Lin fans don't agree with me on this one). This is why I wouldn't mind for him to stay here for another year or two where he can develop on these areas with less pressure on him than as a starter.

You can't wait for perfect. Depends on the market obviously but I think he needs to be opportunistic this year. You never know what the future brings, what if he get injured next year?

[qiantom]

Let's not blame any one single person for the loss of a game or the series. Lin was obviously one of the few players on the team that actually played well in the series and that's it.

I agree and that wasn't my intent. My intent was only to provide a counter balance to the view that his playoff performance provided a major boost in his value.

I don't think it provides a major boost either, and one series should not do that to anyone anyway. It provided a small boost probably. Most importantly though, it probably provided a lot more visibility of Lin to casual fans over the country than the regular season since Charlotte had almost no national broadcast games. For professionals like GMs and coaches, I would be very surprised if 7 games would change their opinions that much.

[qiantom]

I probably shouldn't have used that word as it does seem too direct. It's just my opinion but Clifford may have lost some confidence in Lin after game 6.

Instead of losing confidence on Lin, it's Clifford himself's decision to rush Batum back cost the series.

Yeah I agree. Not playing Lin as much is more because Cliff was leaning on Batum more and it didn't work. Just feels like we didn't have a good game plan heading into game 7. We were supposed to rebound but we can't rebound. We are supposed to shoot but we can't shoot. Everything went against us and Cliff doesn't know how to adjust.

I agree to some extent. Cliff does seem to have a rigid pecking order. Lin is trusted by Cliff I think, just not as much as Kemba, Batum, or even Marv. But as you saw in the regular season when one of Kemba/Batum went down, Lin was trusted and used no less than the other guys. And he played very well in those games.

So I think this is what many Lin fans cannot help but wonder, whether he can find a team and coach, be it Charlotte/Cliff or others, that trust and utilize him that much on a consistent basis and whether Lin can sustain the same level of success.

Frankly it may not be relevant for Hornets since they have these roles filled mostly already barring injuries. I am just offering another perspective based on observations this season.