The Stephen Curry Thread (2015-16 Pt. 2)

[juice4080]

arguably is only your opinion.

on/off and +/- seem to support my opinion too on both sides of the ball to boot

which on/off you are talking about? The on/off which puts Nikola Jokic over Kevin Durant?

(Curry On, Green On, 2525 Mins) ORTG: 120.4, DRTG: 100.4, Net: +20.0
(Curry On, Green Off, 246 Mins) ORTG: 112.0, DRTG: 111.5, Net: +0.5
(Curry Off, Green On, 620 Mins) ORTG: 112.9, DRTG: 101.5, Net: +11.4
(Curry Off, Green Off, 1017 Mins) ORTG: 101.7, DRTG: 112.6, Net: -10.9

Curry's TS% with Green: 67.5%
Curry's TS% without Green: 59.3%

Curry's RPM: 8.33 (4th)
Green's RPM: 9.06 (1st)

[cpower]

on/off and +/- seem to support my opinion too on both sides of the ball to boot

which on/off you are talking about? The on/off which puts Nikola Jokic over Kevin Durant?

(Curry On, Green On, 2525 Mins) ORTG: 120.4, DRTG: 100.4, Net: +20.0
(Curry On, Green Off, 246 Mins) ORTG: 112.0, DRTG: 111.5, Net: +0.5
(Curry Off, Green On, 620 Mins) ORTG: 112.9, DRTG: 101.5, Net: +11.4
(Curry Off, Green Off, 1017 Mins) ORTG: 101.7, DRTG: 112.6, Net: -10.9

Curry's TS% with Green: 67.5%
Curry's TS% without Green: 59.3%

Curry's RPM: 8.33 (4th)
Green's RPM: 9.06 (1st)

Green, Klay on , Curry off : 541 Mins
Curry, Klay on , Green off: 109 Mins
So it's pretty obvious Green always had a all star with him and Curry plays a lot more with bench players. The stat is as meaningless as it gets.



Let's look at 4th quarter stats: who is really closing out games for warrriors
Curry: 126/99 NetRTG 27.2, 6.6Pts on 71.2%TS
Green:, 123/100 NetRTG 22.7, 2.8pts on 58.8%TS

[Dr Spaceman]

The Green>Curry thing is so cute

Why can't they both be good?

[Ballerhogger]

Only thing he hasn't won this RS is defensive 1st team probably and Defensive MVP. So right behind Jordan as greatest season

[ronnymac2]

73 wins. You would think — even based on something as faulty as looking at other historic winning teams, colored by winning bias and all — that Golden State would be allowed to have two megastars.

For the record, I have not seen one poster who discussed the notion of Draymond going #1 this season (that includes myself) attempt to bring down Steph Curry in any way. None of the talk about Green has even went down any "Curry is overrated" avenue.

I'll share this. The whole reason why I am open to Draymond Green being as impactful AND as good as anybody in the league is because when I approach player analysis, I now do so, first and foremost, with an emphasis on the 5-man unit. Green is a good offensive big man without the faults on defense we usually associate with good offensive big men: poor defensive rebounder, poor post defender, poor paint-protector, etc. Green is a good defensive big man without the faults on offense we usually associate with good defensive big men: poor handles, slow, lack of shooting, not as good at passing/playmaking, etc. The flexibility he gives you in building a team is ridiculous.

He's not unique. Debusschere, Odom, Diaw, etc., we've seen this before. But not at this level. Like, there are levels to this stuff. There are levels to these player types.

Nobody doubts Curry's greatness, as well they shouldn't, but I think a major reason why most don't doubt Curry is because we've seen his TYPE of player have GOAT-level impact. Curry's type of player is volume scorer with elite playmaking. Curry in the end is in the same family as Jordan, Wade, LBJ, West, Robertson. Green's family is Diaw, Debusschere, Sheed, Odom. His brethren, while excellent, are not as exaulted as Curry's ancestors. So there is resistance in that, well, Boris Diaw wasn't as good as Michael Jordan, so Green can't be as good as Curry. Green's type is therefore immediately excluded from status, in my opinion before all the details are in. I don't think this is happening consciously or purposefully or with intent or willful bias, and in fact, I can readily admit it happens to me all the time. It makes analysis easy.

All I'm suggesting is to be open to Green being the current apex of his type, and that his type isn't inherently less or more valuable than any other type.

[RSCD3_]

I think the Draymond issue is interesting, if only from the POV of people not wanting to respect him because of Steph. Draymond isn't the guy I'd build my offense around, I'll agree to that, but he is so versatile and useful that he was a major component of a 73-win team the year after they won the title, right? He's clearly a star-level complementary player on offense and a wonderful defensive dynamo, really good in his own right.

Steph may be the face of the team and the engine which drives its top-end offensive output, for sure, but Draymond and Iggy and Klay, right? That team is brutal with the breadth of its top-end talent. So brutal, and Dray is better than he was just a year ago, too, which also helps. They're growing together, which is scary.

I think of it this way. Draymond isn't the centerpiece of anyone's garden. He's the nutrients underneath. If you as a homeowner or gardener don't pick up the right flowers or if you dont have a system for keeping things running smoothly it doesnt matter how good the soil is the garden wont look well. However if you implement a system and grab flowers that work well together then Draymond Green is the volcanic soil underneath, versatile and full of things plants need, making your flowers grow far brighter and larger than expected.

[Ballerhogger]

I like dray. He's cocky but he's not complete bafoon. I heard he's cool in real life convo

[CommonerCoffee]

which on/off you are talking about? The on/off which puts Nikola Jokic over Kevin Durant?

(Curry On, Green On, 2525 Mins) ORTG: 120.4, DRTG: 100.4, Net: +20.0
(Curry On, Green Off, 246 Mins) ORTG: 112.0, DRTG: 111.5, Net: +0.5
(Curry Off, Green On, 620 Mins) ORTG: 112.9, DRTG: 101.5, Net: +11.4
(Curry Off, Green Off, 1017 Mins) ORTG: 101.7, DRTG: 112.6, Net: -10.9

Curry's TS% with Green: 67.5%
Curry's TS% without Green: 59.3%

Curry's RPM: 8.33 (4th)
Green's RPM: 9.06 (1st)

Green, Klay on , Curry off : 541 Mins
Curry, Klay on , Green off: 109 Mins
So it's pretty obvious Green always had a all star with him and Curry plays a lot more with bench players. The stat is as meaningless as it gets.

I don't think that's the conclusion you should be reaching for from those minute totals. Keep in mind that we just had we just came off a stretch in which Curry was out so of course the Green, Klay on, Curry off minute total is going to be much higher than the Curry, Klay on, Green off minute total.

[cpower]

(Curry On, Green On, 2525 Mins) ORTG: 120.4, DRTG: 100.4, Net: +20.0
(Curry On, Green Off, 246 Mins) ORTG: 112.0, DRTG: 111.5, Net: +0.5
(Curry Off, Green On, 620 Mins) ORTG: 112.9, DRTG: 101.5, Net: +11.4
(Curry Off, Green Off, 1017 Mins) ORTG: 101.7, DRTG: 112.6, Net: -10.9

Curry's TS% with Green: 67.5%
Curry's TS% without Green: 59.3%

Curry's RPM: 8.33 (4th)
Green's RPM: 9.06 (1st)

Green, Klay on , Curry off : 541 Mins
Curry, Klay on , Green off: 109 Mins
So it's pretty obvious Green always had a all star with him and Curry plays a lot more with bench players. The stat is as meaningless as it gets.

I don't think that's the conclusion you should be reaching for from those minute totals. Keep in mind that we just had we just came off a stretch in which Curry was out so of course the Green, Klay on, Curry off minute total is going to be much higher than the Curry, Klay on, Green off minute total.

Are you disputing the conclusion by juice4080? because what you said clearly does not conflict with what i said.
Green + Klay > Curry + Barbosa...does that prove anything?

[CommonerCoffee]

Green, Klay on , Curry off : 541 Mins
Curry, Klay on , Green off: 109 Mins
So it's pretty obvious Green always had a all star with him and Curry plays a lot more with bench players. The stat is as meaningless as it gets.

I don't think that's the conclusion you should be reaching for from those minute totals. Keep in mind that we just had we just came off a stretch in which Curry was out so of course the Green, Klay on, Curry off minute total is going to be much higher than the Curry, Klay on, Green off minute total.

Are you disputing the conclusion by juice4080? because what you said clearly does not conflict with what i said.

I was disputing your conclusion. I don't think that's it's quite as large a gap once we account for the recent injury stretch and that the raw total is misleading because of this.

Prior to the playoffs and the injury:
Curry, Klay on, Green off: 106 Mins
Green, Klay on, Curry off : 297 Mins

So yup, you're still right about Green playing with Klay more but not quite the difference that was originally depicted once accounting for injuries. The recent injury stretch only affects the Green on, Curry off data anyways. Of course what you make out of these numbers are entirely individual but I think it's radical to say that the 191 minute gap renders the two man lineup data, true shooting decline, and RPM all worthless.

[cpower]

I don't think that's the conclusion you should be reaching for from those minute totals. Keep in mind that we just had we just came off a stretch in which Curry was out so of course the Green, Klay on, Curry off minute total is going to be much higher than the Curry, Klay on, Green off minute total.

Are you disputing the conclusion by juice4080? because what you said clearly does not conflict with what i said.

I was disputing your conclusion. I don't think that's it's quite as large a gap once we account for the recent injury stretch and that the raw total is misleading because of this.

Prior to the playoffs and the injury:
Curry, Klay on, Green off: 106 Mins
Green, Klay on, Curry off : 297 Mins

So yup, you're still right about Green playing with Klay more but not quite the difference that was originally depicted once accounting for injuries. The recent injury stretch only affects the Green on, Curry off data anyways. Of course what you make out of these numbers are entirely individual but I think it's radical to say that the 191 minute gap renders the two man lineup data, true shooting decline, and RAPM all worthless.

OK I've run the numbers again and this is what I came up with:
Curry on, Green off total: 240 Mins (Curry, Klay on, Green off: 106 Mins (1), Curry on, Klay Green off: 134 Mins (2) )
Green on, Curry off total: 346 Mins (Green, Klay on, Curry off: 297 Mins (3), Green on, Klay Curry off: 49 Mins (4) )

Scenario 1:
Curry: 69.3%TS
Scenario 3:
Green: 60.4%TS


Scenario 2:
Curry: 54%TS
Scenario 4:
Green: 44%TS

Looks like Green had the bigger drop -off if people actually think these 100-ish mins matter that much. I don't.

[juice4080]

Are you disputing the conclusion by juice4080? because what you said clearly does not conflict with what i said.

I was disputing your conclusion. I don't think that's it's quite as large a gap once we account for the recent injury stretch and that the raw total is misleading because of this.

Prior to the playoffs and the injury:
Curry, Klay on, Green off: 106 Mins
Green, Klay on, Curry off : 297 Mins

So yup, you're still right about Green playing with Klay more but not quite the difference that was originally depicted once accounting for injuries. The recent injury stretch only affects the Green on, Curry off data anyways. Of course what you make out of these numbers are entirely individual but I think it's radical to say that the 191 minute gap renders the two man lineup data, true shooting decline, and RAPM all worthless.

OK I've run the numbers again and this is what I came up with:
Curry on, Green off total: 240 Mins (Curry, Klay on, Green off: 106 Mins (1), Curry on, Klay Green off: 134 Mins (2) )
Green on, Curry off total: 346 Mins (Green, Klay on, Curry off: 297 Mins (3), Green on, Klay Curry off: 49 Mins (4) )

Scenario 1:
Curry: 69.3%TS
Scenario 3:
Green: 60.4%TS


Scenario 2:
Curry: 54%TS
Scenario 4:
Green: 44%TS

Looks like Green had the bigger drop -off if people actually think these 100-ish mins matter that much. I don't.

are you really comparing their ts% and scoring number to prop up curry superiority when green's impact has almost nothing to do with scoring....that's curry only advantage over green....green is superior in EVERY other aspect that relates to basketball

[cpower]

I was disputing your conclusion. I don't think that's it's quite as large a gap once we account for the recent injury stretch and that the raw total is misleading because of this.

Prior to the playoffs and the injury:
Curry, Klay on, Green off: 106 Mins
Green, Klay on, Curry off : 297 Mins

So yup, you're still right about Green playing with Klay more but not quite the difference that was originally depicted once accounting for injuries. The recent injury stretch only affects the Green on, Curry off data anyways. Of course what you make out of these numbers are entirely individual but I think it's radical to say that the 191 minute gap renders the two man lineup data, true shooting decline, and RAPM all worthless.

OK I've run the numbers again and this is what I came up with:
Curry on, Green off total: 240 Mins (Curry, Klay on, Green off: 106 Mins (1), Curry on, Klay Green off: 134 Mins (2) )
Green on, Curry off total: 346 Mins (Green, Klay on, Curry off: 297 Mins (3), Green on, Klay Curry off: 49 Mins (4) )

Scenario 1:
Curry: 69.3%TS
Scenario 3:
Green: 60.4%TS


Scenario 2:
Curry: 54%TS
Scenario 4:
Green: 44%TS

Looks like Green had the bigger drop -off if people actually think these 100-ish mins matter that much. I don't.

are you really comparing their ts% and scoring number to prop up curry superiority when green's impact has almost nothing to do with scoring....that's curry only advantage over green....green is superior in EVERY other aspect that relates to basketball

Right. so apparently 30 PPG on 67%TS means nothing to warriors and 71%TS scoring in the 4th means nothing too. And Green dominates both ends of the floor and led the team to 73 wins

If Green is greater than Curry, why he was inferior to Curry's numbers in crunch time?

4th quarter stats: who is really closing out games for warriors
Curry: 126/99 NetRTG 27.2, 6.6Pts on 71.2%TS
Green:, 123/100 NetRTG 22.7, 2.8pts on 58.8%TS

[ThaRegul8r]

The Green>Curry thing is so cute

Why can't they both be good?

A large number of basketball fans view everything as a competition as far as whichever player they're backing is concerned. Even on a player's own team these fans act like it's a competition against his teammates rather than against opposing teams.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I was disputing your conclusion. I don't think that's it's quite as large a gap once we account for the recent injury stretch and that the raw total is misleading because of this.

Prior to the playoffs and the injury:
Curry, Klay on, Green off: 106 Mins
Green, Klay on, Curry off : 297 Mins

So yup, you're still right about Green playing with Klay more but not quite the difference that was originally depicted once accounting for injuries. The recent injury stretch only affects the Green on, Curry off data anyways. Of course what you make out of these numbers are entirely individual but I think it's radical to say that the 191 minute gap renders the two man lineup data, true shooting decline, and RAPM all worthless.

OK I've run the numbers again and this is what I came up with:
Curry on, Green off total: 240 Mins (Curry, Klay on, Green off: 106 Mins (1), Curry on, Klay Green off: 134 Mins (2) )
Green on, Curry off total: 346 Mins (Green, Klay on, Curry off: 297 Mins (3), Green on, Klay Curry off: 49 Mins (4) )

Scenario 1:
Curry: 69.3%TS
Scenario 3:
Green: 60.4%TS


Scenario 2:
Curry: 54%TS
Scenario 4:
Green: 44%TS

Looks like Green had the bigger drop -off if people actually think these 100-ish mins matter that much. I don't.

are you really comparing their ts% and scoring number to prop up curry superiority when green's impact has almost nothing to do with scoring....that's curry only advantage over green....green is superior in EVERY other aspect that relates to basketball

Livingston shoots 43.8 TS with curry vs 58.6 TS with draymond.

Is some of that dray,nods impact? Yeah.

Take Livingston off and curry's TS is 62. Nevermind sample size issues already pointed out in the rapm threads this should probably be in. Teams offense goes up to 116.2, 4 players on the Warriors in that sample shooting below 44 TS are taking up 96 shots.

[Clyde Frazier]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSlcY6JTsyM[/youtube]

[MyUniBroDavis]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSlcY6JTsyM[/youtube]

Just imagine that curry might not have ever won an mvp if kerr never came

[lorak]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSlcY6JTsyM[/youtube]

Very telling he didn't mention Jordan.

[2klegend]

Like I said before, The Warriors talent, especially Green, enable Curry to play to his maximum potential. He is in a position not to worry and extend too much energy on defense and has the luxury of preventing double-triple team going at him because the other Warriors players are such good shooter and playmaker that is equally dangerous to go double Curry.

[Johnny Firpo]

(Curry On, Green On, 2525 Mins) ORTG: 120.4, DRTG: 100.4, Net: +20.0
(Curry On, Green Off, 246 Mins) ORTG: 112.0, DRTG: 111.5, Net: +0.5
(Curry Off, Green On, 620 Mins) ORTG: 112.9, DRTG: 101.5, Net: +11.4
(Curry Off, Green Off, 1017 Mins) ORTG: 101.7, DRTG: 112.6, Net: -10.9

Curry's TS% with Green: 67.5%
Curry's TS% without Green: 59.3%

Curry's RPM: 8.33 (4th)
Green's RPM: 9.06 (1st)

Isn't the "Curry On, Green Off" sample size too small? I realize this is fully subjective but still, that's not a whole lot of games.