Thank Nation! Pre-Lottery: Denver 9th, NY pick 7th (PART 4)

[Risk101]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grWTBvZRSlc[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ughaW7bEMXA[/youtube]

[super_balls]

I hope we go with Skal (all star project) with a safe pick with Bentil or Prince (hope they slip)

[MEDIC]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grWTBvZRSlc[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ughaW7bEMXA[/youtube]

I like the way you think brother. Those my 2 guys!

[deeps6x]

If Demar stays then this draft works out in the Raps favour. They're pretty stacked on guards as it is with KL, Corey, DD, and Norman but they have big man depth issues with Biyombo likely taking off.

Consensus top 3: Ingram, Simmons, and Bender.

Guards likely in the 4-8 range: Hield, Brown, Murray, Dunn

Which would leave the Raptors with quite a selection of bigs including Sabonis, Poeltl, Ellenson, Skal, Deyonta, Chriss, and Brice Johnson.

So worst case scenerio the Raptors get a top 5 big out of this draft. I know the BPA rule is what everyone wants but it would make too much sense from a financial standpoint to let Biyombo walk and draft a cheap backup C or PF.

It would make even more sense from a financial standpoint to let DeMar walk. Especially when we already have 2 replacements for him on the team and under contract. Hell, if we could move Ross at the draft, I'd take another guard. The guards in this draft are where the talent and potential are to be found. Not in the dozen PF bigs. Outside of Poeltl, the Cs are an even longer shot for success. Damn, I wish we had the 9th pick in next year's draft, or last year's draft.

[MEDIC]

Thats a big jump

Wow. Jackson is an athletic freak!

[kidr1211]

Thats a big jump

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/730877381846532097[/tweet]

[Risk101]

Still not sold on him yet but Skal is making some noise.

CHICAGO – Skal Labissiere was once projected as a serious contender to be the No. 1 overall pick in the 2016 NBA draft.
But a disappointing season at Kentucky in which he was in and out of coach John Calipari's doghouse and struggled to get playing time put an end to that.

On Wednesday, DraftExpress was invited to watch Labissiere in a private workout in Chicago, and he showed why he was such a highly regarded prospect six months ago.

Labissiere has excellent tools, is just a hair under 7 feet in shoes and has outstanding fluidity for a player his size. He is quick off his feet, extremely nimble and covers ground effortlessly. He is still thin, but has a frame that should have no problem filling out in the next few years.

His skill level was extremely impressive. Labissiere made shots from all over the floor, both off the dribble and with his feet set, and showed range out to the NBA three-point line. His footwork and balance was excellent in the post and on the perimeter, and his fundamentals were outstanding for someone who only started playing basketball as a teenager. It's incredibly rare to see a player his size with that type of touch.

Labissiere has a world of talent even at an early stage of development, yet he will need time to translate that to game settings on a consistent basis. After stringing together one of the most impressive workouts DraftExpress has seen in the past few years, there's little doubt that Labissiere's draft stock will recover quickly over the next few weeks. Talent rises in the NBA pre-draft process, and Labissiere has one of the highest ceilings of any prospect in this class.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/combine-buzz-194205610.html

[OAKLEY_2]

I don't see a team one win away from the East finals letting DeMar walk. Unless we get another near-star type SG for less money, and how likely is that? Those of you who think Masai let's DD, a 20 ppg scorer walk for nothing, are, in my opinion, living in fantasyland.

It will be most aggravating at 25 million our 20 ppg player on the roster with Casey's shoot first strategy.

So yeah reality. Reality is that Kyle Lowry is the defacto star and not keeping the other near-but-not-quite-so-franchise-player would be yet another episode of Toronto's inferiority complex running amok worrying that another one like VC and Bosh might get away. A near star they most certainly must leverage with hype. There are so many reasons to like Derozan on this team but 25 million U.S. ain't one of them. The negatives are significant and two-fold. One: we likely lose Biz, who like Lost Drummond, were gifts from above. Raps can either reap those happy benefits as opportunists or invest heavily in other 2nd tier solutions. Two: Norm might not get the proper playing time behind DD and KL. Stop take a breath and add up Biz and a thriving Norm and compare that to one player who like Jalen Rose with Indiana got ridiculously overpaid. This happens because they are all(most) stars at least on paper anyway.

Exactly. Measure the value of having BB8 on the team and the future contributions of a Norman Powell with extra playing time. Are we really going to give that up just so we can over pay our most inefficient starter?

Sure, talk about building a statue of Masai because of all of the playoff money the team will make. We were this close to being out in the first round again. One Vogel mistake cost them the series - in theory. DD sucked. Kyle was legitimately injured. Now imagine if we were an even more efficient team on O with a starting SG who could play D. Wouldn't that team take you at least as far in the playoffs, and perhaps even further? And if it can also save $10M - or at least give you 10M more cap room in the three following years, then shouldn't that statue be build even taller if Masai does the right thing and lets DD go?

Maxing DD will be the stupidest thing Masai can do this summer. Stupider than extending Casey even.

If he really wants to make the most money for his team owners, you trade up for Murray. Then you let DD walk and resign BB8. Landing Murray gets you 4 super cheap years of high level SG play. And possibly even a future starting SG. Signing BB8 for his prime years gets you a great second line core piece and all of his prime years (even if he is 25). It also frees up $14M/yr that can be used on other players. Not immediately, but in the 3 years that follow next season. That has a ton of value as well. Maybe that money just goes to Kyle. He IS the actual star on this team after all. If we want to max the true star, let DD go this summer and Max Kyle next summer. When it comes time to eventually trade Kyle, hopefully CoJo, Wright or Murray will be ready to take over.

Contrary to the conventional opinion brokering, Bismack Biyombo is our blue chip chance at landing (retaining) a high quality free agent in 2016. Right there for the taking. No questions asked. Equivalent to signing Carroll last summer. We cannot argue on the one hand that the cap justifies 25 mil for Demar but is financially irresponsible to pay for two starting caliber big men. Says who? We've proven in these playoffs that our offence is vastly improved running plays that engage either JV, Biz or surprise Patterson. Going all guard centric all the time is misspent energy and freezes out significant talent we have invested in or need to further develop. Casey may not admit it but these big men are his ticket to a long career. Demar is a decent player and great person but league economics are presenting a fork in the road. Let's not be foolish here.

[0 - 100]

Demetrius Jackson turning some heads. Smart dude too

[CoachJReturns]

Demetrius Jackson turning some heads. Smart dude too

I wasn't interested until Rabb pulled out, but Jackson is one of the safer bets for our draft position. I'm fine with trying to pick a raw star in the making but I don't believe Skal or Chriss will be the type of guys I'll regret passing on. I'll take Jackson for our long term point guard and hopefully move up to take someone like Prince or Sabonis with the other pick.
I'd love to move up for Murray, but I don't think that's happening. Masai will probably try though.

[TheFutureMM]

Still not sold on him yet but Skal is making some noise.

CHICAGO – Skal Labissiere was once projected as a serious contender to be the No. 1 overall pick in the 2016 NBA draft.
But a disappointing season at Kentucky in which he was in and out of coach John Calipari's doghouse and struggled to get playing time put an end to that.

On Wednesday, DraftExpress was invited to watch Labissiere in a private workout in Chicago, and he showed why he was such a highly regarded prospect six months ago.

Labissiere has excellent tools, is just a hair under 7 feet in shoes and has outstanding fluidity for a player his size. He is quick off his feet, extremely nimble and covers ground effortlessly. He is still thin, but has a frame that should have no problem filling out in the next few years.

His skill level was extremely impressive. Labissiere made shots from all over the floor, both off the dribble and with his feet set, and showed range out to the NBA three-point line. His footwork and balance was excellent in the post and on the perimeter, and his fundamentals were outstanding for someone who only started playing basketball as a teenager. It's incredibly rare to see a player his size with that type of touch.

Labissiere has a world of talent even at an early stage of development, yet he will need time to translate that to game settings on a consistent basis. After stringing together one of the most impressive workouts DraftExpress has seen in the past few years, there's little doubt that Labissiere's draft stock will recover quickly over the next few weeks. Talent rises in the NBA pre-draft process, and Labissiere has one of the highest ceilings of any prospect in this class.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/combine-buzz-194205610.html

See I knew this was eventually going to happen...

Alright RealGM, hypothetically, at what pick in this draft do you start to consider Skal?

For example, you have pick 2 - there is no way you are thinking about Skal. You're taking whoever is left between Ingram and Simmons.

I think my magic number is 6 - after that I think he's in the conversation.

[deeps6x]

Ellenson becomes more intriguing now. If he can be a 4-5 instead of just a 4 I think he has more value. Chriss also more interesting.

i don't see defensive chops in either player. Even though offensively both of them look interesting, when you're a really poor defender and/or rebounder, that takes away a lot of appeal. I think both these guys are taken near the end of lotto, or should be at least.

Agreed. Chriss at least blocks some shots. Him as a stretch 4 I can cheer. Ellenson scares me, I think he just not athletic enough to play beside Val. That why I slightly glad to see him have bigger size, enough to be a 4-5 and come off the bench as a 5.

Skal, Chriss, Davis are at the top of my PF wish list.

I glad to see Valentine came in lighter. If he puts up decent agility numbers he becomes in play for our pick.

Chriss can jump, but he is still undersized. I like him, but not ahead of Davis. Maybe not even ahead of Skal. And I'm not a fan of Skal - at least not a fan of what I saw on court this season. Supposedly he is impressing at the combine.

The whole undersized thing bothers me. We have people wanting to replace our all-star shooting PG with another guy because they are so similar (Jackson). We already have a tall, or should I say regular sized, PG in Wright on the roster. Picking Valentine at 6'5" would also be something I'd support. Jackson might turn out to be better in the long run, but right now, I'd doubt that very much.

I like the little high motor guys in the regular season, but in the playoffs, the better teams usually have more full size for their position players. Look at how much trouble the Heat rookies are causing for our players because of their extra few inches of height and reach.

Guys like Lowry and CP3 are just extra special players that can dominate in spite of their both being undersized. There are a ton of similar sized PGs that might look similar or put up comparable numbers in college, but very, very few of them will make the big leap to become super stars like CP3 and Lowry.

Hield has a superstar talent, but his size scares me. I think he will get torched on D playing against the bigger men in the NBA. Murray is a little better size wise, and a little worse of a shooter. I'd still take Murray 10 times out of 10 over Hield. 3 years younger is just a bonus. Being Canadian is just a bonus. (trade up to get him Masai)

I read the DX write up about the combine. Funny how they only give height in shoes for players they have high on their mock draft list.

Even Norman Powell, as nice as he has looked the last couple months, could use a few extra inches in height. Having to guard taller players is causing lots of problems for him this series against Miami. Because of that, I have a hard time imagining him as an all-star SG in the future. He might become a great 6th man one day. But he is missing one of the dimensions that really counts in the big league. Fortunately his speed and drive really help to compensate. DD has good size, but he needs Powell's head to really become a star.

Ah sorry, enough random thoughts. /end rant

[deeps6x]

It will be most aggravating at 25 million our 20 ppg player on the roster with Casey's shoot first strategy.

So yeah reality. Reality is that Kyle Lowry is the defacto star and not keeping the other near-but-not-quite-so-franchise-player would be yet another episode of Toronto's inferiority complex running amok worrying that another one like VC and Bosh might get away. A near star they most certainly must leverage with hype. There are so many reasons to like Derozan on this team but 25 million U.S. ain't one of them. The negatives are significant and two-fold. One: we likely lose Biz, who like Lost Drummond, were gifts from above. Raps can either reap those happy benefits as opportunists or invest heavily in other 2nd tier solutions. Two: Norm might not get the proper playing time behind DD and KL. Stop take a breath and add up Biz and a thriving Norm and compare that to one player who like Jalen Rose with Indiana got ridiculously overpaid. This happens because they are all(most) stars at least on paper anyway.

Exactly. Measure the value of having BB8 on the team and the future contributions of a Norman Powell with extra playing time. Are we really going to give that up just so we can over pay our most inefficient starter?

Sure, talk about building a statue of Masai because of all of the playoff money the team will make. We were this close to being out in the first round again. One Vogel mistake cost them the series - in theory. DD sucked. Kyle was legitimately injured. Now imagine if we were an even more efficient team on O with a starting SG who could play D. Wouldn't that team take you at least as far in the playoffs, and perhaps even further? And if it can also save $10M - or at least give you 10M more cap room in the three following years, then shouldn't that statue be build even taller if Masai does the right thing and lets DD go?

Maxing DD will be the stupidest thing Masai can do this summer. Stupider than extending Casey even.

If he really wants to make the most money for his team owners, you trade up for Murray. Then you let DD walk and resign BB8. Landing Murray gets you 4 super cheap years of high level SG play. And possibly even a future starting SG. Signing BB8 for his prime years gets you a great second line core piece and all of his prime years (even if he is 25). It also frees up $14M/yr that can be used on other players. Not immediately, but in the 3 years that follow next season. That has a ton of value as well. Maybe that money just goes to Kyle. He IS the actual star on this team after all. If we want to max the true star, let DD go this summer and Max Kyle next summer. When it comes time to eventually trade Kyle, hopefully CoJo, Wright or Murray will be ready to take over.

Contrary to the conventional opinion brokering, Bismack Biyombo is our blue chip chance at landing (retaining) a high quality free agent in 2016. Right there for the taking. No questions asked. Equivalent to signing Carroll last summer. We cannot argue on the one hand that the cap justifies 25 mil for Demar but is financially irresponsible to pay for two starting caliber big men. Says who? We've proven in these playoffs that our offence is vastly improved running plays that engage either JV, Biz or surprise Patterson. Going all guard centric all the time is misspent energy and freezes out significant talent we have invested in or need to further develop. Casey may not admit it but these big men are his ticket to a long career. Demar is a decent player and great person but league economics are presenting a fork in the road. Let's not be foolish here.

Yeah, I hear you. I'd rather pay $27M or so to JV and BB8 next season than $36M to our SGs. If it is one or the other ( and it really is ) then the total contributions on both sides of the court say we should run with JV/BB8 at C and Ross/Powell at SG.


In my mind, this is exactly what Masai was thinking last September (after watching Norm destroy summer league) when he extended Ross to what looked like a bit of an over pay at the time. I wouldn't be surprised if the plan was to trade DD by the deadline in February. Unfortunately Ross came out sucking big time for the first few months, and DD added just enough to his game to get people to start speculating someone would max him. I still think DD is super inefficient and only good on one end of the court and I'd hate it if Masai maxed him. HATE IT. But if DD will take Klay/Butler money and if this is enough to bring back BB8, then I'm ok with bringing DD back. In that case, Ross would be the odd man out by February though. Maybe sooner.

[deeps6x]

Still not sold on him yet but Skal is making some noise.

CHICAGO – Skal Labissiere was once projected as a serious contender to be the No. 1 overall pick in the 2016 NBA draft.
But a disappointing season at Kentucky in which he was in and out of coach John Calipari's doghouse and struggled to get playing time put an end to that.

On Wednesday, DraftExpress was invited to watch Labissiere in a private workout in Chicago, and he showed why he was such a highly regarded prospect six months ago.

Labissiere has excellent tools, is just a hair under 7 feet in shoes and has outstanding fluidity for a player his size. He is quick off his feet, extremely nimble and covers ground effortlessly. He is still thin, but has a frame that should have no problem filling out in the next few years.

His skill level was extremely impressive. Labissiere made shots from all over the floor, both off the dribble and with his feet set, and showed range out to the NBA three-point line. His footwork and balance was excellent in the post and on the perimeter, and his fundamentals were outstanding for someone who only started playing basketball as a teenager. It's incredibly rare to see a player his size with that type of touch.

Labissiere has a world of talent even at an early stage of development, yet he will need time to translate that to game settings on a consistent basis. After stringing together one of the most impressive workouts DraftExpress has seen in the past few years, there's little doubt that Labissiere's draft stock will recover quickly over the next few weeks. Talent rises in the NBA pre-draft process, and Labissiere has one of the highest ceilings of any prospect in this class.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/combine-buzz-194205610.html

See I knew this was eventually going to happen...

Alright RealGM, hypothetically, at what pick in this draft do you start to consider Skal?

For example, you have pick 2 - there is no way you are thinking about Skal. You're taking whoever is left between Ingram and Simmons.

I think my magic number is 6 - after that I think he's in the conversation.

6! Holy sh&t! Who do you have 1-5?

Yesterday I was thinking Skal would go 13-16. After reading the DX write up on him and the combine stuff today, I'm thinking Masai might just reach deep enough to take him at #9. But you think he will be gone by then. Wow.

[DreamTeam09]

If Murray is off the board and bender doesn't fall, I don't see how we don't take Skal. Look at the bigs we burned thru this playoffs, we could definitely use him now and in the future. Great pairing next to Val. Hope ya'all are happy about Skal n Val because no way Massai passes on that.

Face it, we have way too many guards and none of these guys are beating out Powell Ross Demar Lowry cojo Wright Carroll Bruno.

It's Skal guys, I'll sig bet it

[OAKLEY_2]

Picking Valentine at 6'5" would also be something I'd support.

Valentine is quite likely to be able to replace Ross cheaply in the rotation if we move Ross to retain BB. Remains to be seen if Valentine is Ross's equal shooting or defensively (likely not) but Valentine is a great distributor so the ball won't get stuck with him. Valentine looks like a pick the Spurs would go for. He is a player that likely integrates quickly like Powell and gives us more depth at shooting guard if we decide not to match LA's most certainly lucrative offer to Derozan. Valentine will not be a star. He will be Ross II bench shooting with passing and slower motor.

[OAKLEY_2]

Still not sold on him yet but Skal is making some noise.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/combine-buzz-194205610.html

See I knew this was eventually going to happen...

Alright RealGM, hypothetically, at what pick in this draft do you start to consider Skal?

For example, you have pick 2 - there is no way you are thinking about Skal. You're taking whoever is left between Ingram and Simmons.

I think my magic number is 6 - after that I think he's in the conversation.

6! Holy sh&t! Who do you have 1-5?

Yesterday I was thinking Skal would go 13-16. After reading the DX write up on him and the combine stuff today, I'm thinking Masai might just reach deep enough to take him at #9. But you think he will be gone by then. Wow.

I really hope he is gone by 9 because it means somebody good will drop. Hopefully we have another player to move in above us well and is very possible in a no sure thing draft like this one. Giannis is in there somewhere.

[Badonkadonk]

Skal has always shown great skill and raw talent - nothing he's done in workouts is inconsistent with that.

The fact that he disappeared during games against other college athletes is what's pushed him down the draft board.

I'm not sure if it's BBIQ (constant foul trouble), low motor, lack of aggressiveness, Kentucky's schemes (though that wouldn't explain his rebounding), Calipari holding him back, GF troubles or some combination of everything, but he looked pretty terrible in actual games. I'm sure he looks like a god vs. a chair.

The dream is Murray falls, but that just won't happen. There's a small chance Brown or Hield slip, but also very unlikely.

I'm not excited about anything that might be left at 9, but I'd probably go with Jackson or Davis at this point.

[DreamTeam09]

Skal has always shown great skill and raw talent - nothing he's done in workouts is inconsistent with that.

The fact that he disappeared during games against other college athletes is what's pushed him down the draft board.

I'm not sure if it's BBIQ (constant foul trouble), low motor, lack of aggressiveness, Kentucky's schemes (though that wouldn't explain his rebounding), Calipari holding him back, GF troubles or some combination of everything, but he looked pretty terrible in actual games. I'm sure he looks like a god vs. a chair.

The dream is Murray falls, but that just won't happen. There's a small chance Brown or Hield slip, but also very unlikely.

I'm not excited about anything that might be left at 9, but I'd probably go with Jackson or Davis at this point.

Skal is easily the better prospect between him and davis. Him not showing up could have a lot to do with program, inexperience, coach, pressure, etc. Still think he showed more than Davis tho.

As far as Jackson goes, we have 3 pgs in front of him, hard to move two pgs for 1 in in draft year that wont even be the 2nd pg drafted.

[S.W.A.N]

The nice thing about looking at these raw guys like Skal and Chriss is we know we can send them to the D-league for a year of training. The guys at the 905 will whip them into shape!