Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry

[Chad_Warden]

Cherry pick games? All those games I mentioned are playoff games with the exception of the Cleveland game this year.

So what? You still cherry-picked games. Let's compare VC's PER and TS% in the 2001 playoffs to Lowry's PER and TS% in the 2016 playoffs. THAT is comparing apples to apples instead of cherry-picking individual games.

You also stated that Vince showed more heart in one game then Lowry did in his whole career. Are you really going to say that?

And you stated that Vince showed no heart, which is a lie. I'm guessing you're too young to even remember those games.

Are you really going to use "heart" as an argument?

No. YOU are the one who brought up "heart", not me.

He just had a spectacular round 2 series and did everything on both ends, hit clutch shots, and sacrificed his body more then Wince Carter ever had.

You're lying again. Again, compare VC's 2001 playoff numbers to KL's 2016 playoff numbers. I don't care about excuses (oh, his wittle elbow was hurt). The facts are the facts. VC put up way better numbers. And that's not even counting KL's historically terrible 2015 playoffs.

You're making excuses for KL putting up worse numbers. At the same time that you're saying KL doesn't use excuses.

[Lukeem]

When looking at Vince Carter it is impossible to find a balance between his potential, the frustration around his quitting and some kind of a consensus truth/ reality.

Comparing Lowry and Vince right now would clearly be an opinionated debate without a true right answer or clear winner.

I do hope that Lowry emerges as the better player I do not like having Vince as our best player ever or even in the conversation. There is and always will be way too much garbage attached to him with the way it all ended.

[Steelo Green]

Vince is a true one way player with the heart of the Tinman.

Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.

35, 9, 7, 4 steals, and leading his team to the conference finals is comparable to the 50 point game, let alone the countless Lowry games.

What are you even talking about.

I won't compare heart as it's not tangible, but to then use that heart and hyperbolize that Vince's 50 had more heart than Lowry's entire Raptor career is ludicrous, especially considering how Lowry plays and how much adversity he has gone too.

I love how people have this godly image of Vince.

Best talent Raptors ever had? Yes. Best Raptor ever? Now it's debatable, as now the he took us to the furthest we have ever gone title, is now finished.

[Chad_Warden]

Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.

35, 9, 7, 4 steals, and leading his team to the conference finals is comparable to the 50 point game, let alone the countless Lowry games.

What are you even talking about.

I won't compare heart as it's not tangible[/quote]

I was responding to the idiotic claim by the other poster that Vince never played with any heart. If youd bothered reading the thread you would have seen that.

[basketball royalty]

After the Final buzzer of yesterday's game 7 I turned to my brother and said "Its official, Kyle Lowry is the greatest Raptor of All Time".




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[AreBe]

Carter gave birth to the Raptors and that cannot be taken away or changed. He is the greatest Raptor.

Not saying Lowry is not fantastic! Just that Carter was half man half amazing!

[Steelo Green]

Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.

35, 9, 7, 4 steals, and leading his team to the conference finals is comparable to the 50 point game, let alone the countless Lowry games.

What are you even talking about.

I won't compare heart as it's not tangible

I was responding to the idiotic claim by the other poster that Vince never played with any heart. If youd bothered reading the thread you would have seen that.[/quote]
What does that have to do with your statement being silly? So if someone says something "idiotic" (the need to speak with so much vitriol is a bit annoying), then you respond with an even more asinine statement.

Makes sense.

[Danny1616]

Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.

No, he showed more talent. He showed his true potential.

If Vince had dedicated himself at least half as much to his craft as Lowry did in the offseason to transform his body and take his game to the next level, we'd be talking about him in an entirely different context in terms of where he fits in NBA history, not just the greatest Raptor.

That's the whole frustration with Vince.

Could you ever imagine Kyle's teammates reacting like Vince's did after he admitted he wasn't hungry or didn't work as hard as he could have?

Article: http://www.spursreport.com/forums/spurs-nba-fan-feedback/25016-vince-carter-admits-what-we-knew-all-along.html

But Lowry didn't tranform his body until after his 9th season in the league. Before that he was fat as ****. Vince wasn't even on the Raptors by his 9th-10th season in the league. He left in the middle of his 7th. By the middle of his 7th season Lowry was still fat.

Your argument makes no sense. Why would Vince needed to "transform his body" when he was with the Raptors anyways? He never allowed himself to get fat like Lowry. He stayed lean the whole time.

Could you ever imagine Kyle's teammates reacting like Vince's did after he admitted he wasn't hungry or didn't work as hard as he could have?

Vince was honest and told the truth. Lowry didn't work as hard as he could have his first 9 years in the league. If he was he wouldn't have been so fat. And he wouldn't have choked in the playoffs in 2015.

Only difference is Vince was honest. I have yet to see Lowry be honest and admit he didn't work as hard as he could have.

Actually if you watched some behind scenes footage, including open gym, Chauncy Billups said that Lowry kept his size because he believed it was an asset to his game. Lowry is a bulldog on the court and has been among the top point gaurds in rebounding, steals and taking charges for the last few years now. However, after his struggles during the 2nd half of last season he decided to cut some weight and work more on his conditioning (while keeping his strength as best he could). Lowry was the 24th pick in the draft who had to prove his worth his whole career. He broke his wrist in his rookie year and the Grizzlies drafted Mike Conley the following year. He struggled to get time in Houston early on, competing with Aaron Brooks. In 2011, Lowry was having an all-star season, leading the Rockets to a playoff spot during the first half of the season until he got hurt and Dragic played great the 2nd have the season which made Lowry expendable. When he came to Toronto he had to compete with Calderon (who Casey loved for some reason) even though we could see he was more talented. He then played alongside Rudy Gay who was one of the most inefficient and iso-oriented players we have seen.

No one has questioned Lowry's dedication and heart ever. He puts it all on the line. What people questioned his entire career was his ATTITUDE. He was cocky, he would fight with coaches, he was stubborn, he was a poor leader who would lash out at teammates. This is what he has most improved on - his attitude. He has now become a leader and we can all see that.

You have little credibility if you are going to justify Vince Carter over Lowry by using "heart".

You sound really bad saying Vince showed more heart in his 50 point then Lowry showed during his entire period in Toronto. I personally think that Lowry's best stretch was last season after Derozan went down. He single handedly dominated the league for those games and kept us as the top seed in the East before the all-star break. People don't really talk about that nowadays because of the poor play and injuries in the 2nd half of the last season.

[ReaLiez]

Lowry > VC
Kyle is the anti VC

vc - Talent, highlight, show, swag, commercials, endorsements, fluff, gave up on dunking, dramatic
LOWRY - Hardworker, Under the Rader, Substance, Tough, Quiet, Tries his hardest every game, bigs up his teammates ie DD

[seanbig]

I didn't mean this to be a statistical argument between Carter and Lowry.

Carter is as SAS says "box office", he was electric, he was the show (like curry is now). However his legacy will also be remembered for the last minute graduation ceremony, and his missed shot at game 7.

Lowry's legacy was going to be the brick brother, never shows up in the playoffs and his game 7 block by PP was going to be what he was remembered by. But since he has gotten the team out of the first round (despite playing with DD), and had a remarkable game 7 in the second round, I do think many may consider him surpassing carter as the greatest raptor in the playoffs.

I don't remember Carter having as many clutch shots as Kyle did in game 7. He was much better offensively, but quite lazy on defense according to my 'eye test". It was also a very bipolar series where one night it was iverson dropping 50 then vince then ai and so on and so forth. I remembering arguing with someone that carter was as good as kobe, but we all know how that turned out.

What is certain is that he has certainly surpassed Bosh, and may become the most beloved Raptor of all time.

[Chad_Warden]

Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.

35, 9, 7, 4 steals, and leading his team to the conference finals is comparable to the 50 point game, let alone the countless Lowry games.

What are you even talking about.

I won't compare heart as it's not tangible

I was responding to the idiotic claim by the other poster that Vince never played with any heart. If youd bothered reading the thread you would have seen that.

What does that have to do with your statement being silly? So if someone says something "idiotic" (the need to speak with so much vitriol is a bit annoying), then you respond with an even more asinine statement.

Makes sense.[/quote]

Well, if anyone would know about asinine statements, it would be you.

[Chad_Warden]

You have little credibility if you are going to justify Vince Carter over Lowry by using "heart".

My good. Can you even read?

YOU brought up "heart", not me. What don't you understand about that? It was a stupid thing to mention in the first place, but YOU are the one who brought it up.

You sound really bad saying Vince showed more heart in his 50 point then Lowry showed during his entire period in Toronto.

And you sound really bad saying the Vince never showed any heart. Vince played with heart in many games. You sound really bad bringing up "heart" to begin with. It's a moronic argument.

[LittleOzzy]

Vince had all the talent in the world, but absolutely no heart.

He gave up on his team and this city while being paid millions. He'll always be a bum.

[Steelo Green]

35, 9, 7, 4 steals, and leading his team to the conference finals is comparable to the 50 point game, let alone the countless Lowry games.

What are you even talking about.

I won't compare heart as it's not tangible

I was responding to the idiotic claim by the other poster that Vince never played with any heart. If youd bothered reading the thread you would have seen that.

What does that have to do with your statement being silly? So if someone says something "idiotic" (the need to speak with so much vitriol is a bit annoying), then you respond with an even more asinine statement.

Makes sense.

Well, if anyone would know about asinine statements, it would be you.[/quote]

Quite the response. Bravo. Again let's repeat what you said and are trying to ignore:

Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.

[Chad_Warden]

I was responding to the idiotic claim by the other poster that Vince never played with any heart. If youd bothered reading the thread you would have seen that.

What does that have to do with your statement being silly? So if someone says something "idiotic" (the need to speak with so much vitriol is a bit annoying), then you respond with an even more asinine statement.

Makes sense.

Well, if anyone would know about asinine statements, it would be you.

Quite the response. Bravo. Again let's repeat what you said and are trying to ignore:

Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.

[/quote]


Again, I wasn't the one who brought up "heart". Were it up to me we'd stick to PER, win shares, TS%, adjusted plus/minus, etc. It was Danny who brought up "heart".

I'm not trying to "ignore" anything. Were I the one to first mention "heart" in this thread, I'd own up to making a stupid statement. Which Danny is not doing.

[mrdressup]

He's the greatest Raptor achiever/winner to date. He has brought us half way to the promised land from the desert that has been franchise success. What is most wonderful is that he appears to gave unlocked or overcome something within him in doing it. That's very inspirational. He has been thoroughly humbled and has risen as a new man ready for the next challenge. It's not hard to support him.

[B00Yah]

As I said above, he has a 48 TS%. He is in no away carrying the team like 2000-2001 Carter did in the playoffs. Its not even close. He was thoroughly outplayed by Paul George in the first round and outplayed by Wade this series.
.

It's funny that he probably did get outplayed by Wade overall, but all I remember are those daggers Lowry hit on Miami all series long. I mean we could probably make a collection of Riley reactions right now to all of Lowry's daggers this series. Wade didn't really have the same number of moments.

In retrospect, Game 3 was the game that stole the series for us. Wade was unstoppable that game all around, but Lowry just got super hot at the right time.
At the same time, if we had won Game 4, we probably win the series earlier.

Only foul trouble slowed Lowry down. Even when he was sucking, he was making big plays when it mattered. I don't think it's even questionable that Lowry is the greatest Raptor ever. Best combination of leadership, offense, defense, toughness. The only thing he lacks is fanboys because he doesn't have sick dribbling skills and doesn't dunk and wasn't a high pick. Does he have a single fanboy on this site? We all just take him for granted.

I'm not a "fanboy" b/c that sounds like a nuthugger but I've always been a fan of Lowry.

I knew we got a steal when BC picked him up (his best move), but I didn't expect him to become this dominant.

I've been watching bball since the Bad Boys and Lowry's one of the fiercest competitors I've witnessed.

He just makes so many great things happen on the court. He's almost always fully engaged. He's transformed into such a great leader and is one of the biggest reasons we've been able to shake the soft label that used to be the scarlet letter us Raps fan used to wear in shame.

This is his team. He's by far the best Raptor ever - not necessarily from a skills perspective - but definitely from that of a warrior.

Respek.

[smallgains]

*Buys a round of beers* Drink up and enjoy the ECF folks

[seanbig]

For whatever its worth Carters' +/- in the series vs the sixers was +12

Lowrys' is like a +74 for the second round series. Its surprising how good his +/- is, maybe it is the coaching...gulp.

This would back up the eye test that told me that carter put up monster scoring numbers, but was kind soft on his defensive impact.

[Steelo Green]

What does that have to do with your statement being silly? So if someone says something "idiotic" (the need to speak with so much vitriol is a bit annoying), then you respond with an even more asinine statement.

Makes sense.

Well, if anyone would know about asinine statements, it would be you.

Quite the response. Bravo. Again let's repeat what you said and are trying to ignore:

Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.

Again, I wasn't the one who brought up "heart". Were it up to me we'd stick to PER, win shares, TS%, adjusted plus/minus, etc. It was Danny who brought up "heart".

I'm not trying to "ignore" anything. Were I the one to first mention "heart" in this thread, I'd own up to making a stupid statement. Which Danny is not doing.[/quote]
This is hilarious. Again, you're saying I didn't start the conversation of saying something stupid, and still not admitting that you went along to that same line of thinking and said something just as silly, and are now deflecting left and right from your statement because you didn't start it.