Greatest raptor ever Kyle Lowry

djsunyc · Post #161 » by **djsunyc** » Tue May 17, 2016 1:40 pm

as a knicks fan in 01, the only reason raptors won that series was b/c camby's sister was assaulted and that took him out of the series mentally. otherwise vince would've never advanced - much like bosh.

DrCoach · Post #162 » by **DrCoach** » Tue May 17, 2016 3:31 pm

Reg00 wrote:
DrCoach wrote:Lawd have mercy

Lowry is a good player

No way on earth he is the best Raptor Ever

Vince Carter is, and I'm not a VC Lover.

VC is the Jordan of Canada, he put Canada on the map and made Canada a Basketball Country.

Millions of boys wanted to be VC, like Wiggins etc..

VC represented world wide in the Olympics

He was the leading vote getter in multiple all star games

He is considered the greatest Dunker ever by many

He gave birth to a nation of fans

Statistically, Lowry doesn't touch him either.

Just stop the hyperbole , I like Lowry, he is tough and clutch but two weeks ago many here wanted him gone.

There isn't a lot of Raptors related successes in that list I would like to point out. He shined very brightly, but as a Raptor (ignoring all the "soft power" reasons) he did not have a lot of team sucess. You say that's not on him, but I disagree: the guy quit on a team, there isn't' much debate to that.

Dont put words into my mouth, I didnt say lack of team success wasnt on him.

Raptors would not be relevant if not for VC,NBA is Canada might not be relevant.

Look at the Grizzlies

Reg00 · Post #163 » by **Reg00** » Tue May 17, 2016 3:56 pm

DrCoach wrote:
Reg00 wrote:
DrCoach wrote:Lawd have mercy

Lowry is a good player

No way on earth he is the best Raptor Ever

Vince Carter is, and I'm not a VC Lover.

VC is the Jordan of Canada, he put Canada on the map and made Canada a Basketball Country.

Millions of boys wanted to be VC, like Wiggins etc..

VC represented world wide in the Olympics

He was the leading vote getter in multiple all star games

He is considered the greatest Dunker ever by many

He gave birth to a nation of fans

Statistically, Lowry doesn't touch him either.

Just stop the hyperbole , I like Lowry, he is tough and clutch but two weeks ago many here wanted him gone.

There isn't a lot of Raptors related successes in that list I would like to point out. He shined very brightly, but as a Raptor (ignoring all the "soft power" reasons) he did not have a lot of team sucess. You say that's not on him, but I disagree: the guy quit on a team, there isn't' much debate to that.

Dont put words into my mouth, I didnt say lack of team success wasnt on him.

Raptors would not be relevant if not for VC,NBA is Canada might not be relevant.

Look at the Grizzlies

That is true, you didn't say it. Apologize.

But everything is purely speculative when people say "basketball might not even have succeeded without him". They were getting good attendance numbers in the Skydome! Toronto is a sports town, it would have been fine. And they still get bad ratings in Canada so he hasn't fixed that issue.

As a pure question: what has each done for the team? Then Lowry has led his team more so than Vince did. And its not even close.

NorthernNemesis · Post #164 » by **NorthernNemesis** » Tue May 17, 2016 4:01 pm

VC is.
VC always will be.

No team in Toronto without VC.

djsunyc wrote:as a knicks fan in 01, the only reason raptors won that series was b/c camby's sister was assaulted and that took him out of the series mentally. otherwise vince would've never advanced - much like bosh.

This is funny as hell.

DrCoach · Post #165 » by **DrCoach** » Tue May 17, 2016 4:03 pm

Reg00 wrote:
DrCoach wrote:
Reg00 wrote:
There isn't a lot of Raptors related successes in that list I would like to point out. He shined very brightly, but as a Raptor (ignoring all the "soft power" reasons) he did not have a lot of team sucess. You say that's not on him, but I disagree: the guy quit on a team, there isn't' much debate to that.

Dont put words into my mouth, I didnt say lack of team success wasnt on him.

Raptors would not be relevant if not for VC,NBA is Canada might not be relevant.

Look at the Grizzlies

That is true, you didn't say it. Apologize.

But everything is purely speculative when people say "basketball might not even have succeeded without him". They were getting good attendance numbers in the Skydome! Toronto is a sports town, it would have been fine. And they still get bad ratings in Canada so he hasn't fixed that issue.

As a pure question: what has each done for the team? Then Lowry has led his team more so than Vince did. And its not even close.

Robert Horry has more rings than Shaq, does that make Horry a Greater Laker than Shaq?

Of course it doesnt

Harold_and_Kumar · Post #166 » by **Harold_and_Kumar** » Tue May 17, 2016 4:06 pm

NorthernNemesis wrote:VC is.
VC always will be.

No team in Toronto without VC.

Why would there be no team in Toronto? You do realize a future without VC may have seen McGrady become a bigger star in Toronto and stay. Or we go a different route and get LeBron in a few years. Or Wade.

Suffice to say there is every reason to believe Toronto would continue to have a basketball franchise with the city's population size, corporate power and backing, etc., and to use "no team in Toronto without VC" as a way to elevate Vince's legacy in Toronto is utter BS and **** on the fans of this team.

Birth of the Cool · Post #167 » by **Birth of the Cool** » Tue May 17, 2016 4:20 pm

Nah. Vince Carter is still the greatest Raptor so far in their history. No knock on Lowry, but he's not on Vince's prime level. However, this is the greatest team in Raptors history & this is the best management in Raptors history.

If Vince Carter had this roster / coaching stability / management stability (for example let's remove DD and slot in Raptors Vince) the team would have fared much better in his day.

All that being said, let us all enjoy history in the making here. A Houston Rockets-esque run to the final would be amazing, but reaching the ECF and fighting LeBron & Company is a great success already for the players & organization & fans. #goraps

DHK · Post #168 » by **DHK** » Tue May 17, 2016 4:57 pm

It's best to know how VC and Lowry matches up once their career is done.
For now Lowry legacy hasn't ended.

Chad_Warden · Post #169 » by **Chad_Warden** » Tue May 17, 2016 10:17 pm

Badonkadonk wrote:
Chad_Warden wrote:
Badonkadonk wrote:No, he showed more talent. He showed his true potential.

If Vince had dedicated himself at least half as much to his craft as Lowry did in the offseason to transform his body and take his game to the next level, we'd be talking about him in an entirely different context in terms of where he fits in NBA history, not just the greatest Raptor.

That's the whole frustration with Vince.

Could you ever imagine Kyle's teammates reacting like Vince's did after he admitted he wasn't hungry or didn't work as hard as he could have?

Article: http://www.spursreport.com/forums/spurs-nba-fan-feedback/25016-vince-carter-admits-what-we-knew-all-along.html

But Lowry didn't tranform his body until after his 9th season in the league. Before that he was fat as ****. Vince wasn't even on the Raptors by his 9th-10th season in the league. He left in the middle of his 7th. By the middle of his 7th season Lowry was still fat.

Your argument makes no sense. Why would Vince needed to "transform his body" when he was with the Raptors anyways? He never allowed himself to get fat like Lowry. He stayed lean the whole time.

Your rebuttal makes no sense - Lowry took the initiative to make a change after he was dissatisfied with his performance following a disappointing playoff run. Carter never had such an epiphany while with the Raptors or for the entirety of his career. He floated by on talent.

Lowry set a goal and is reaping the results; as somebody else pointed out, he leads all players in net differential these playoffs and has been the leader and best player on a team that has gone farther than any of Vince's teams. Vince was never the best player on a team that went into the ECF despite having the kind of talent that could have made him one of the best guards in NBA history.

Could you ever imagine Kyle's teammates reacting like Vince's did after he admitted he wasn't hungry or didn't work as hard as he could have?

Vince was honest and told the truth. Lowry didn't work as hard as he could have his first 9 years in the league. If he was he wouldn't have been so fat. And he wouldn't have choked in the playoffs in 2015.

Only difference is Vince was honest. I have yet to see Lowry be honest and admit he didn't work as hard as he could have.

There was no truth for Lowry to reveal - Carter was "honest" because his heart was regularly challenged and written about by the media. He was forced to be "honest". The first time Lowry was put in the same position that Carter was in (i.e. playoff disappointment as the leader of a team), he made changes. Whether it came 9 years into his career is irrelevant, that moment never came for Vince, nor did he ever show that kind of leadership or commitment by example.

If you think the only difference between Kyle and Vince is how honest each was, then I'm not surprised that you're missing why Kyle is getting more respect in the context of "greatest Raptor". Most influential? Most talented in team history? Sure, you can give those to Vince. But Kyle has contributed more to the success of the Raptors in his 25 playoff games than Vince ever did in his 15 playoff games.

No, it's your statement that makes no sense. Lowry transformed his body because he was so obese. Carter never allowed himself to become fat to begin with. If he had, you could criticize him for not slimming down. But he didn't.

You're also lying when you said Carter never had an epiphany and improved his game in the offseason. Look how much he improved his three point shooting. He went from 28% as a rookie, to over 40% in his second year. That is proof that he worked hard to improve. In his third year he maintained over 40% while greatly increasing his attempts per game.

Or look at his rebounding and assists. He put up personal highs in both categories in his 10th season in the league. It's almost unheard of for a player to put up personal highs in two major statistical categories that late in their career.

The first time Lowry was put in the same position that Carter was in (i.e. playoff disappointment as the leader of a team), he made changes. Whether it came 9 years into his career is irrelevant, that moment never came for Vince, nor did he ever show that kind of leadership or commitment by example.

This is your most ignorant and egregious lie yet. The first time Carter was the playoff disappointment as the leader of a team was 2000. He improved a ton between 2000 and 2001. And you don't have to take my word for it - look at his numbers in the 2001 playoffs as compared to the 2000 playoffs. He improved more between the 2000 and 2001 playoffs than Lowry did between the 2015 playoffs and the 2016 playoffs. Thus he should more commitment to improving that Lowry did. The numbers speak for themselves.

Chad_Warden · Post #170 » by **Chad_Warden** » Tue May 17, 2016 10:19 pm

Danny1616 wrote:
Chad_Warden wrote:
smallgains wrote:Vince is a true one way player with the heart of the Tinman.

Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.

Hey buddy, am I the guy that brought up heart first? This is the message I responded to. You explicitly stated Carter showed more heart in that 50 point game then Lowry showed his entire career.

Case closed.

Yes "buddy". Can you not read. My comment about Carter showing more hard in one game than Lowry in his entire career was in response to you saying

Vince is a true one way player with the heart of the Tinman.

YOU mentioned "heart" first with that statement. I hadn't mentioned that nonsense concept once before that.

Case closed.

Chad_Warden · Post #171 » by **Chad_Warden** » Tue May 17, 2016 10:21 pm

Rasho is god wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
Chad_Warden wrote:
Vince showed more heart in the 50 pt. Game against Philly than Lowry has shown in his entire Raptors career.

Hey buddy, am I the guy that brought up heart first? This is the message I responded to. You explicitly stated Carter showed more heart in that 50 point game then Lowry showed his entire career.

Case closed.

Chad Warden is in Shambles from this ownage.

Apparently you are illiterate. He mentioned "heart" first. Read the thread in order. He mentioned "heart" when he said something stupid about Vince having the heart of a tinman. I hadn't mentioned the word once in the entire thread before that.

Crazomali · Post #172 » by **Crazomali** » Tue May 17, 2016 10:23 pm

Lowry is the goat raptor but he wouldn't be doing this for Toronto if it wasn't for Vince. I'm thankful to both

vincecarter55 · Post #173 » by **vincecarter55** » Tue May 17, 2016 10:36 pm

Vince his his prime could take over a game. He was being called the next Michael Jordan for a reason. He didn't get there but he was still brilliant in the 99-00 and 00-01 seasons. Lowry isn't on that level as a player. He isn't a superstar like Vince was. There was no reason to think that Vince wouldn't be just as good as Kobe in his early years in Toronto. That's no disrespect to Lowry because I absolutely love the guy. By the end of his time with the Raptors he may have had the greatest raptor CAREER but there is no way you look at a prime Kyle Lowry and a prime Vince Carter and choose Lowry.

SpiderMunn · Post #174 » by **SpiderMunn** » Tue May 17, 2016 11:20 pm

Just saw Rondo on NBATV, and had Lowry in his top 5 toughest PG's to play

Mattsanity · Post #175 » by **Mattsanity** » Tue May 17, 2016 11:43 pm

NorthernNemesis wrote:VC is.
VC always will be.

No team in Toronto without VC.

Antawn Jamison would've put us on the map :wink:

Vince_Carter15 · Post #176 » by **Vince_Carter15** » Tue May 17, 2016 11:56 pm

Birth of the Cool wrote:Nah. Vince Carter is still the greatest Raptor so far in their history. No knock on Lowry, but he's not on Vince's prime level. However, this is the greatest team in Raptors history & this is the best management in Raptors history.

If Vince Carter had this roster / coaching stability / management stability (for example let's remove DD and slot in Raptors Vince) the team would have fared much better in his day.

All that being said, let us all enjoy history in the making here. A Houston Rockets-esque run to the final would be amazing, but reaching the ECF and fighting LeBron & Company is a great success already for the players & organization & fans. #goraps

Carter would of quit on us a long time ago.

Vince Carter is one of my fav players ever (just look at my name :roll:

). People say he put us on the map, he could dunk, etc etc. None of that is relevant to who is the best basketball player. That is all just hype. You think Kyrie Irving is more valuable than Lowry?

Lowry carried this team here, I like DD too. But Lowry is our engine and the heart of this team. His leadership, defence, stuff like that is what makes him so valuable. There is a reason no one turned on him when his shot wasn't falling. He contributed in many different aspects. He will never be Vince Carter but in my eyes Lowrys is just as important if not better overall.

Birth of the Cool · Post #177 » by **Birth of the Cool** » Wed May 18, 2016 2:52 am

Vince_Carter15 wrote:
Birth of the Cool wrote:Nah. Vince Carter is still the greatest Raptor so far in their history. No knock on Lowry, but he's not on Vince's prime level. However, this is the greatest team in Raptors history & this is the best management in Raptors history.

If Vince Carter had this roster / coaching stability / management stability (for example let's remove DD and slot in Raptors Vince) the team would have fared much better in his day.

All that being said, let us all enjoy history in the making here. A Houston Rockets-esque run to the final would be amazing, but reaching the ECF and fighting LeBron & Company is a great success already for the players & organization & fans. #goraps

Carter would of quit on us a long time ago.

Vince Carter is one of my fav players ever (just look at my name ). People say he put us on the map, he could dunk, etc etc. None of that is relevant to who is the best basketball player. That is all just hype. You think Kyrie Irving is more valuable than Lowry?

Lowry carried this team here, I like DD too. But Lowry is our engine and the heart of this team. His leadership, defence, stuff like that is what makes him so valuable. There is a reason no one turned on him when his shot wasn't falling. He contributed in many different aspects. He will never be Vince Carter but in my eyes Lowrys is just as important if not better overall.

I wonder if some of you guys have actually played basketball on any level. No good organization would choose Raptors Lowry over Raptors Carter period!!

Carter was putting up 35 / 50 pts vs an elite 76ers defense. The game 7 where he was criticized he had a near triple double. So when Lowry does it he gets praised for his overall game & contributing in other areas by this board but they dont mention VCs all around game in game 7. Funny how that works.

Lowry has more options in both starting lineup & bench. He also has a stable coaching situation and strong management none of which were in place during VCs tenure with the Raptors. Oakley himself said their offense was all VC and Oakley basically said Lenny Wilkens harmed this organization not to mention Peddie etc. VC had to score. He was their best passer too. Look I love Lowry's heart but his overall game is nowhere near VC's and frankly VC was and still is a smarter bball player than Lowry (Rick Carlisle specifically said VC was one of the smartest bball players he's ever coached).

That this is even a question shows how quirky this board thinks. Switch Lowry to VC's team and vice versa and think about it...

triple_threat · Post #178 » by **triple_threat** » Wed May 18, 2016 3:04 am

GOAT raptor disappears. This thread is a joke. VC wouelce answered when we were getting dunked on left right and centre. Lowry just chucked 3s where's the heart.

From fat Lowry to skinny Lowry to invisible Lowry

Rasho is god · Post #179 » by **Rasho is god** » Wed May 18, 2016 3:23 am

Chad_Warden wrote:
Rasho is god wrote:
Danny1616 wrote:
Hey buddy, am I the guy that brought up heart first? This is the message I responded to. You explicitly stated Carter showed more heart in that 50 point game then Lowry showed his entire career.

Case closed.

Chad Warden is in Shambles from this ownage.

Apparently you are illiterate. He mentioned "heart" first. Read the thread in order. He mentioned "heart" when he said something stupid about Vince having the heart of a tinman. I hadn't mentioned the word once in the entire thread before that.

That was not danny that was small gainz. You are the one who can't read.

dballislife · Post #180 » by **dballislife** » Wed May 18, 2016 3:28 am

lowry is a star in the nba, not superstar but a star...for a star player, he can really be hot and cold night and day...man its crazy, during the regular season too