Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[bedjawII]

I'm already getting annoyed with how some people are acting like the choice between these two is so obvious. Can we not? I really don't feel like hearing, we should have taken the other guy that I wanted, every time the guy we do pick misses a free throw.

I guess what I'm saying is, let's express our opinions but not pretend like they are fact.

Agreed this is super tough.

And it's also impossible to really make this call without knowing everything else being discussed behind the scenes. Let's say its 50/50 among fans right now. If tomorrow the Sixers made a trade that basically involved Okafor for Booker, I bet a lot more people would move to the Simmons camp because the need for outside shooting wouldn't be as desperate and the logjam down low not as bad.

For now, I'm sticking to what I said immediately after we got the pick. If we can get a good return for Noel or Okafor, do it and then take Simmons. If people are only offering garbage for them, then take Ingram.

I don't think like that because you are now letting other teams impact the decision. I do think this is simple. You take whichever player you believe has the best chance to be a franchise player. You only worry about fit if you truly believe both have the same upside. For me and what I witnessed this year Simmons is the clear choice. Is he perfect...No Way! But he has the elite size/athleticism ratio, rebounding and handles already. Ingram from what I saw falls just below the franchise player.

[roma258]

KD is a borderline freak athlete. Lets relax with that comp

Well baby KD, implies that KD is the superior player, no? I'll happily take 75% KD. But point is, we don't know. Ingram is super young, even by one and done standards. He's a late bloomer whose game and body are still developing. I have no idea what the final player will look like. But the superior length, long range shooting stroke and tight handles for a player his size does invite the comp. Just like Simmons's freaky vision and ballhandling for a dude his size invite the comps to Magic, silly at that may be.

[jbent87]

If we take Ingram I want to know that its because BC says he is the guy and not bc of this "Simmons wants to go LA" crap thats going around. That's my only request.

[Negrodamus]

Reddit straw poll is much different:

http://www.strawpoll.me/10252558/r

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

I can't see either player failing in the NBA so i'm good with either pick. Today I feel like Simmons is the better pick for us, but yesterday I felt like Ingram was. We can't go wrong either way.....
Trading Okafor for Marcus Smart idea dropping in 3...2...1

[76ciology]

For now, the two obvious red flags I see with Simmons are..

1.) Length issue
- Height to wingspan ratio, even if 7' wingspan is right. At 6'10, needs to be around 7'2" wingspan to be considered very good.

Great wingspan measurements comes from players of all heights. An elite wingspan is considered as a measurement that is 6.5% greater than the player’s height. Great height does not necessarily equate elite wingspan. Take for instance Yao Ming, who stood an impressive 7’6, but his wingspan was actually smaller than his height at 7’5 inches. Then you have a player like Dwyane Wade who is 6’5, but has a wingspan of 6’10. That is 6.5% greater than his height. The following top 15 will look at the most impressive wingspans in NBA history.

- 8'7" standing reach is major red flag (2015 hoops summit where Ingram was measured 7'3 wingspan and 9'2" reach); But I doubt he has that low of a standing reach.
- 9' standing reach as per LSU

PLEASE CHECK THIS LINK
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-freakish-advantage-of-nba-all-stars-1455224954





2.) Shooting
- It's a touch issue where he's shooting with the wrong hand. And I do think that's more problematic than just tweaking shooting mechanics.
http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2016/2/16/10966798/ben-simmons-nba-draft-scouting-report-jump-shot
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyz_CnJL_xQ[/youtube]
Video taken a year ago. It's for you to decide whether he has improve in college or not. Numbers says not.

Conclusion:
You won't be able to dominate the paint as a big if you lack length. You won't be able to be a dominant scorer as a perimeter player without shooting. Shooting is a premium that is non-negotiable.

There's a correlation between freakish length + shooting and superstars. Shooting allows them to be dynamic on offense. Freakish length gives them an edge on offense while that wingspan allows them better deflection and rotational defense.

There's also a reason why nobody likes Rondo despite his legit star talent. There's a reason why nobody likes Rubio despite his good numbers. Shooting a not only a premium. It's a must.

[BullyKing]

I hope everyone starts a separate thread for their thoughts on every prospect.

[PhilasFinest]

Not totally disagreeing with you, but doesn't Blake Griffin dominate the paint without "freak" length ?

[mksp]

I hope everyone starts a separate thread for their thoughts on every prospect.

I think this post was thoughtfully put together enough and specific enough to deserve it's own post.

The #3 major concern with Simmons is his age. Ingram is a year younger, longer, and a better shooter.

You're really projecting that Simmons' ball-handling and vision is so next level that it overcomes his physical and skill limitations.

[BullyKing]

I hope everyone starts a separate thread for their thoughts on every prospect.

I think this post was thoughtfully put together enough and specific enough to deserve it's own post.

The #3 major concern with Simmons is his age. Ingram is a year younger, longer, and a better shooter.

You're really projecting that Simmons' ball-handling and vision is so next level that it overcomes his physical and skill limitations.

I'm not disagreeing with that but he already posted this elsewhere. This is going to be insufferable if everyone starts a thread for every comment of theirs that they deem worthy of a separate discussion.

[Negrodamus]

If Simmons is capable of being a 3, wouldn't the Yao Ming comparison have credence? He was 7'5 with a 7'6 wingspan which isn't a major percent increase between the two. However that's massive for a center.

Simmons is 6'10 which is enormous for a SF and has a 7'0 wingspan which would be considered elite (Andrew Wiggins is 7'0) in any other circumstance.

[PhilasFinest]

Let's chill with the age stuff. Ben Simmons is 19 years old. He will be 20 towards the end of July.

I understand he's older than Ingram, but it's not like he's a 22-23 year old senior compared to Ingram. He's still a freshman and still young. There's plenty of time for him to improve his game.

The same argument that Ingram will get bigger, stronger and improve goes for Simmons as well. He's gonna get stronger and improve too.


As for his jump shot, I think he can certainly improve. I made a post in another thread comparing his shooting to Okafor and Blake Griffin.

Both Griffin (took longer) and Okafor (1 season) added some range to their games and Improved their FT shooting from the 50% range to the 70% range. I think there is some correlation with improving your shot and FT%. Simmons shot 67% on 9 attempts a game. He's off to a much better start here.

Mechanically his shots not broken Ala MKG/Turner. Brown actually touched a bit on this subject via a interview and said he didn't think Simmons' shot needed a total makeover.

Simmons is likely never gonna be a lights out shooter, but I think he can realistically make some minor adjustments to his shot and improve enough to make himself into a 77-80% FT shooter, which makes his ability to drive more lethal and should aid in him becoming a respectable jump shooter.

Pair his ability to drive, play in transition and around the basket with even a slightly improved jumper and a 75-80% FT on 8 attempts a game and you've probably got a 20+ ppg scorer.

[Negrodamus]

Here's something that could be nothing, but whatever:

http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/5/19/11713374/a-ben-simmons-to-philadelphia-rumour

[PhilasFinest]

If Simmons is capable of being a 3, wouldn't the Yao Ming comparison have credence? He was 7'5 with a 7'6 wingspan which isn't a major percent increase between the two. However that's massive for a center.

Simmons is 6'10 which is enormous for a SF and has a 7'0 wingspan which would be considered elite (Andrew Wiggins is 7'0) in any other circumstance.

I'd say so. As long as his wingspan is around 7 foot, I think it's absolutely fine. Scouting reports say he has good instincts on D and he has quick feet. I don't think his size will be an issue on the perimeter.

[Sixerscan]

Why are you still citing that hilariously awful standing reach measurement. It's extremely unlikely for his actual reach to be that short.

[James40]

Are wingspans taken with or without sneakers on? Lol. Blake is 6'9", and has a 6'11" wingspan, thankfully he never took up pro boxing. Beasley's height has gone from 6'7" to 6'9, he has a reported 7'1" wingspan, maybe. No one knows Durants true height, but he did say he'll never be listed taller than 6'9" because that'll make him a power forward in his eyes, but we all know how impossible it is to block his shot because he also has long arms.

Its an advantage to Ingram, does it push him over Simmon's ?, that's a tough question. Since there isn't a definitive number 1 pick in this draft, it's going to be debated until these guys get on the court. Hopefully the Sixers get the right one.

[Ericb5]

Also if we are going to be using people like Dramond Green with a height of 6'5.75 which must be his barefoot height, then the height for Simmons to use is 6'9 which is his barefoot measurement.

[jsa]

All players have weaknesses and their bodies are not Lebron. Simmons could be great if he could be an offensive point guard (Magic) and a defensive two guard. At any other position , with his terrible shooting , his liabiliy will keep him from being excellent.

I seriously doubt Simmons is Magic.Just pick the need, Ingram, and start to put a properly balanced team together If Simmons turns out better, you have a logical rationale for not choosing him in the 2016 NBA draft.

[Jack Bauer]

Agreed this is super tough.

And it's also impossible to really make this call without knowing everything else being discussed behind the scenes. Let's say its 50/50 among fans right now. If tomorrow the Sixers made a trade that basically involved Okafor for Booker, I bet a lot more people would move to the Simmons camp because the need for outside shooting wouldn't be as desperate and the logjam down low not as bad.

For now, I'm sticking to what I said immediately after we got the pick. If we can get a good return for Noel or Okafor, do it and then take Simmons. If people are only offering garbage for them, then take Ingram.

I don't think like that because you are now letting other teams impact the decision. I do think this is simple. You take whichever player you believe has the best chance to be a franchise player. You only worry about fit if you truly believe both have the same upside. For me and what I witnessed this year Simmons is the clear choice. Is he perfect...No Way! But he has the elite size/athleticism ratio, rebounding and handles already. Ingram from what I saw falls just below the franchise player.

You can't tell if a player will be a franchise player based on size/athleticism ratio alone.

Portland would do over the Greg Oden pick and draft Durant instead in a heart beat.

Oden was supposed to be the once in a generation "Bill Russell" athletically freakish type defensive franchise center, while Durant was viewed more as a skinnier version of Tracy McGrady who can't bench press back then. Wasn't even close, every 2007 mock board had Oden as consensus #1 pick, unlike Simmons vs Ingram which are much closer together.

Athleticism don't last long in the NBA but a shooting touch does, and Ingram has both athleticism and the range.

[PhilasFinest]

Portland would likely do over the Greg Oden pick for sure...but skillset/athletic ability etc never really affected the Oden pick.

Oden ended up having a Joel Embiid like situation that we have right now. He was a dominat big man with tons of upside and potential but he was never able to show it because of a plethora of consistent injury problems.

It's not like Oden couldn't play. He simply couldn't stay healthy. Obviously KD has blossomed into a star, but if your living in hindsight, if you could guarantee Oden's health the conversation could still possiblY be had. He would have been a pretty dominate big man.