Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[Unbreakable99]

I love Embiid. I really do. He's going to be a monster if healthy. And I know I'm probably in the minority in what I'm about to say. If Embiid and Simmons are both healthy and have a long career I think Simmons will be the better player. I think that highly of Simmons. I know Embiid is a freak and the only concern is health but I think Simmons will be so special.

[76ciology]

I love Embiid. I really do. He's going to be a monster if healthy. And I know I'm probably in the minority in what I'm about to say. If Embiid and Simmons are both healthy and have a long career I think Simmons will be the better player. I think that highly of Simmons. I know Embiid is a freak and the only concern is health but I think Simmons will be so special.

Who's got a higher upside between Embiid and Simmons?

Embiid obviously. He has no weaknesses, and is an equal athlete, and way bigger.


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Do you think Simmons is a very good complimentary piece for Embiid? It can work, but do you max out both guys talent?

Simmons needs to operate in the paint where he gets most of his basket, his scoring revolves around getting points in the paint and FTr.

Even if you watch the Cavs game against the Raps, they opt to play Love-RJ or Love-Frye to get max spacing for LBJ. I don't think you are maximizing Embiid if you make him as a mere spot up shooter playing the Ibaka or Haslem role?

FWIW, I think Ingram is much better complimentary piece for Embiid, while also gets you a similarly high upside player.

Ingram out - Embiid in is much better than Simmons in and Embiid out. Not to mention, there's no overlapping of roles between Saric and Simmons, but I do think it's something that can be overlooked since Simmons value is much bigger than Saric.

[Unbreakable99]

I love Embiid. I really do. He's going to be a monster if healthy. And I know I'm probably in the minority in what I'm about to say. If Embiid and Simmons are both healthy and have a long career I think Simmons will be the better player. I think that highly of Simmons. I know Embiid is a freak and the only concern is health but I think Simmons will be so special.

Who's got a higher upside between Embiid and Simmons?

Embiid obviously. He has no weaknesses, and is an equal athlete, and way bigger.


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Do you think Simmons is a very good complimentary piece for Embiid? It can work, but do you max out both guys talent?

Simmons needs to operate in the paint where he gets most of his basket, his scoring revolves around getting points in the paint and FTr.

Even if you watch the Cavs game against the Raps, they opt to play Love-RJ or Love-Frye to get max spacing for LBJ. I don't think you are maximizing Embiid if you make him as a mere spot up shooter playing the Ibaka or Haslem role?

FWIW, I think Ingram is much better complimentary piece for Embiid, while also gets you a similarly high upside player.

Ingram out - Embiid in is much better than Simmons in and Embiid out. Not to mention, there's no overlapping of roles between Saric and Simmons, but I do think it's something that can be overlooked since Simmons value is much bigger than Saric.

I think Simmons and Embiid would mesh very well. I don't see any bad fit. Simmons is unselfish. He does need to shoot better. Embiid can play inside or outside. Simmons could drive to the lane and create opportunities for Embiid.

[Ericb5]

I love Embiid. I really do. He's going to be a monster if healthy. And I know I'm probably in the minority in what I'm about to say. If Embiid and Simmons are both healthy and have a long career I think Simmons will be the better player. I think that highly of Simmons. I know Embiid is a freak and the only concern is health but I think Simmons will be so special.

Embiid obviously. He has no weaknesses, and is an equal athlete, and way bigger.


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Do you think Simmons is a very good complimentary piece for Embiid? It can work, but do you max out both guys talent?

Simmons needs to operate in the paint where he gets most of his basket, his scoring revolves around getting points in the paint and FTr.

Even if you watch the Cavs game against the Raps, they opt to play Love-RJ or Love-Frye to get max spacing for LBJ. I don't think you are maximizing Embiid if you make him as a mere spot up shooter playing the Ibaka or Haslem role?

FWIW, I think Ingram is much better complimentary piece for Embiid, while also gets you a similarly high upside player.

Ingram out - Embiid in is much better than Simmons in and Embiid out. Not to mention, there's no overlapping of roles between Saric and Simmons, but I do think it's something that can be overlooked since Simmons value is much bigger than Saric.

I think Simmons and Embiid would mesh very well. I don't see any bad fit. Simmons is unselfish. He does need to shoot better. Embiid can play inside or outside. Simmons could drive to the lane and create opportunities for Embiid.

I think that they are ideal compliments. Simmons will dominate in transition, and Embiid in the half court. They will have no problems defensively, and I expect Simmons to eventually have a suitable jump shot.

Also, just because Simmons scores most of his points close to the basket doesn't mean that that is where he is best. He can get to the basket from far away from the basket. It isn't like you have to throw it in to him and let him post, although he could.

Simmons is half way between a guard and a forward. He can and should run the team, and Embiid is going to be a dominant post player who can step out if need be.


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[Unbreakable99]

I think Simmons has a better handle than LeBron at the same age. That's about all I would give him over LeBron at 19. LeBron was quicker and stronger and bigger and faster and just the overall better player. Simmons is very smooth and fluid. There isn't much wasted motion when he has the ball. He's not an athletic freak but he seems athletic enough to be able to use it at an advantage.

[Kobblehead]

Embiid's game is a question mark right now since we don't know what offensive identity he's going to adopt.

Will he work predominantly in the low post?
Will he be a perimeter spacer?
Will he want to operate out of the highpost as a triple threat guy? He certainty has the passing skills, shooting skills, first step and handle to do so.

The big that meshes best with Simmons will be the one that functions best in the pick-and-roll. And right now, that's Noel. Both Embiid and Okafor have struggled in the pick and roll, in the past. Maybe Embiid has grown in this area. He was such a basketball novice at Kansas and has grown so much since then, so who knows..

[Ericb5]

I think Simmons has a better handle than LeBron at the same age. That's about all I would give him over LeBron at 19. LeBron was quicker and stronger and bigger and faster and just the overall better player. Simmons is very smooth and fluid. There isn't much wasted motion when he has the ball. He's not an athletic freak but he seems athletic enough to be able to use it at an advantage.

Lebron isn't bigger than him, but the rest I agree with. Simmons can be a generational talent with out being as good as Lebron though. He might even be a better facilitator than Lebron. He seems more guard like than Lebron ever did.


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[Sundown]

I know that people compare Simmons to LeBron and that may not be entirely fair. But their styles of play are absolutely similar and fairly unique. So when your game allows you to get to the rim at will, you're probably going to be a bit behind with your jumper simply because you haven't needed to develop it. When you're shooting 77% at the rim, any jump shot is an inferior shot.

If you look at LeBron when he was 19 and a rookie, he shot 35.6% from 3 to 10 feet, 31.3% from 10 to 16 feet, 35.2% from 16 feet to 3 pt range, and 29% from 3 point territory. Not good numbers. Now obviously those have risen, although not by as much as you might think given his success. He's still not a great shooter, but what you notice about how LeBron's teams win is how he makes so many players like Channing Frye look amazing by the attention he demands and how he can dish it. I expect Simmons to deliver in a similar fashion, so ultimately I don't think Simmons has to become a great shooter to become a great player. Once you get comfortable with the fact that he really just needs to be a credible shooter, I don't see how you can pass on him.

We're all naturally concerned with our lack of perimeter players, so I understand the allure of an Ingram. But I actually think a player like Simmons makes that search a hell of a lot easier. He will likely allow you turn guards/wings that would fail in other situations into valuable pieces here.

[Ericb5]

I know that people compare Simmons to LeBron and that may not be entirely fair. But their styles of play are absolutely similar and fairly unique. So when your game allows you to get to the rim at will, you're probably going to be a bit behind with your jumper simply because you haven't needed to develop it. When you're shooting 77% at the rim, any jump shot is an inferior shot.

If you look at LeBron when he was 19 and a rookie, he shot 35.6% from 3 to 10 feet, 31.3% from 10 to 16 feet, 35.2% from 16 feet to 3 pt range, and 29% from 3 point territory. Not good numbers. Now obviously those have risen, although not by as much as you might think given his success. He's still not a great shooter, but what you notice about how LeBron's teams win is how he makes so many players like Channing Frye look amazing by the attention he demands and how he can dish it. I expect Simmons to deliver in a similar fashion, so ultimately I don't think Simmons has to become a great shooter to become a great player. Once you get comfortable with the fact that he really just needs to be a credible shooter, I don't see how you can pass on him.

We're all naturally concerned with our lack of perimeter players, so I understand the allure of an Ingram. But I actually think a player like Simmons makes that search a hell of a lot easier. He will likely allow you turn guards/wings that would fail in other situations into valuable pieces here.

Good point. Channing Frye is a good example.

He plays way more with the Cavs in the playoffs than he would on most teams, and he is making a difference out there, but is primarily as a 3 point shooter.


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[Mik317]

I think the biggest issue with Simmons for many (or just me lol) is that he is difficult to actually compare to anyone. Lebron is too good to compare ANYONE to as it becomes unfair. Simmons is a damn good athlete but it has that for his size qualifier. LeBron does not. Other comps like Royce White is selling him too short and are unfair. Diaw without donuts and Larry Brown's hatred is an okay one but Simmons is a much better athlete than Diaw so not really. Odom just doesn't work IMO as Odom is a much better defender and only got good when he gave up a lot of his ballhandler responsibilities. So Odom the tall pg kind of failed. This makes it difficult to actually project his career. He is a rather unique prospect in that sense...which is scary actually. Much is made of his jumper but what if the ballhandler stuff doesn't translate? That is scary as ****, no?

This is what makes it weird.

glad I'm no GM.....I'd panic.

[Kobblehead]

Why do you need comparisons? Just account for the skills he brings to the table.

[Ericb5]

I think the biggest issue with Simmons for many (or just me lol) is that he is difficult to actually compare to anyone. Lebron is too good to compare ANYONE to as it becomes unfair. Simmons is a damn good athlete but it has that for his size qualifier. LeBron does not. Other comps like Royce White is selling him too short and are unfair. Diaw without donuts and Larry Brown's hatred is an okay one but Simmons is a much better athlete than Diaw so not really. Odom just doesn't work IMO as Odom is a much better defender and only got good when he gave up a lot of his ballhandler responsibilities. So Odom the tall pg kind of failed. This makes it difficult to actually project his career. He is a rather unique prospect in that sense...which is scary actually. Much is made of his jumper but what if the ballhandler stuff doesn't translate? That is scary as ****, no?

This is what makes it weird.

glad I'm no GM.....I'd panic.

I think you can compare a great prospect to a great player by just saying that he reminds you of him. Where people cross the line would be if they said he is the next Lebron.

Remember in the mid 90's where every athletic young shooting guard with talent was talked about as the next Jordan. It became a boy crying wolf situation. The next player that really DID remind people of Jordan was Kobe, but I remember very clearly people calling Stackhouse the next Jordan, and he could barely dribble a basketball in comparison. So by the time Kobe came a long it was considered a bad thing for people to say that he reminded them of Jordan.




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[Mik317]

Why do you need comparisons? Just account for the skills he brings to the table.

touche

[Kobblehead]

Comparisons tend to mislead more than they help you identify what a player might bring to the table. They also set unnecessary expectations.

If only DeShawn Stephenson didn't get that MJ comp...lol

[Negrodamus]

http://975thefanatic.com/2016/05/24/johnny-jones-joins-rob-ellis-harry-mayes/

Johnny Jones talking Ben Simmons.

[Kobblehead]

Coach Jones more or less confirmed that Ben Simmons was told to avoid contact on the defensive end when he already had a foul count. Now that the handful of 9 second clips of ole defense have been contextualized, can we stop questioning his defensive ability?

[Negrodamus]

Nope.

[LongLiveHinkie]

Keith Pompey thinks we'll trade Okafor for #3 like many do.

[Ericb5]

Coach Jones more or less confirmed that Ben Simmons was told to avoid contact on the defensive end when he already had a foul count. Now that the handful of 9 second clips of ole defense have been contextualized, can we stop questioning his defensive ability?

Coming in to this draft season I was thinking that it was an open question whether or not his best defensive position would be the 3 or the 4.

My gut tells me that it will be the 3, but I am open to the idea that he may need to defend the 4 and I want him to be in the best position for him to succeed.

So if it turns out that his best defensive position is the 4 then I think he is a good enough player to clear the deck for him and let him play there.

However, I think we should take a moment and reflect on just how lucky we are that we won this lottery.

We could have easily been in the situation where we were debating Murray vs Dunn, and we are debating Ingram vs Simmons.





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[Kobblehead]

Keith Pompey thinks we'll trade Okafor for #3 like many do.

Another notch on the good guys belt!

Better get Crowder and Smart along with that #3 pick. The Celtics should be forced to overpay for their desire.