Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[Sportfan73]

Id be down but I'd need them to pay a hefty price or I'm sending him to PHX. Something like Okafor/24/26 for #3/BKN 2017/Bradley/Crowder is the lowest I'd go


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A top 3 pick, a top 5 pick and 2 good young 2-way perimeter players on decent contracts for Okafor??


Im all for getting value, but that just seems like an extremely unrealistic type of offer. Superstars have gotten less in return.

The minimum that I could live with is 3 and Smart for Okafor.

I know that smart is not a shooter, and we really need players that can shoot, but he is a tough nosed defender that can also handle the ball and make plays. He would improve is immediately.

Plus if we made that deal we could draft Murray and play him next to Smart, and we basically picked up a starting backcourt.


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I would be in with this. Then go sign delly and that's your guard rotation.
Delly/smart(while he developes)/Canaan
Murray/vet fa/nik
Cov/hollis/vet fa
Simmons/Saric/grant
Noel/embiid/ holmes

And no I don't prefer any vet fa signings but you know there will be a couple low level 1 or 2 year deal ones.

[Ericb5]

I like the optimism but I just don't see Okafors trade value at close to the suggestions here. I think Ainge has his sights set a bit higher than Jah.

You think 3 and Smart is too much?

If Ainge wants him he is going to have to move at the draft. Okafor can be a go to scorer for a team with a horrible front court. I don't know what better player he could get outside of trading the Nets picks, which are some of the best draft assets in the league.


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[Kobblehead]

I like the optimism but I just don't see Okafors trade value at close to the suggestions here. I think Ainge has his sights set a bit higher than Jah.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Okafor has a great trade value. Just that circumstantially, we're in a position to demand a much steeper price than his true value due to the bind Boston is in.

Their only other option is to cash in ALL their assets for Boogie or Love (two guys that have been perennial losers as focal points).

[76erFixer]

Its obviously kind of irrelevant at this point but who here agrees the Celtics would still be interested in an Okafor trade if they landed at 2 instead of 3?

They'd still be interested in Okafor, but they would feel less pressure to deal the #3 pick because they'd be in position to land a F as opposed to bringing yet another G onto their roster.

Clearly its less pressure to deal Ingram than Kris Dunn but they still dont really need Ingram as much as they need a guy like Okafor. Honestly I think if the celtics landed at 2 in the lottery we might have already agreed in principle on a trade(sixers might milk it till closer to draft time but knowing all along they are doing the deal)

[marcush]

I like the optimism but I just don't see Okafors trade value at close to the suggestions here. I think Ainge has his sights set a bit higher than Jah.

You think 3 and Smart is too much?

If Ainge wants him he is going to have to move at the draft. Okafor can be a go to scorer for a team with a horrible front court. I don't know what better player he could get outside of trading the Nets picks, which are some of the best draft assets in the league.


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I think 3 is too much.

Ainge will be aiming at Butler, Cousins caliber player.

[eagereyez]

So I've noticed that Simmons has pulled away the longer the discussion has gone. Here's another poll on the subject.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/5/18/11701550/2016-nba-mock-draft-sixers-ben-simmons-lsu-brandon-ingram-duke

Simmons is currently winning 63% to 37%, with ~5,000 votes.

[Winejk]

http://975thefanatic.com/2016/05/24/johnny-jones-joins-rob-ellis-harry-mayes/

Johnny Jones talking Ben Simmons.

Interesting interview. If you believe everything that Jones says in the interview, Ben Simmons is the next coming of Jesus. Kidding aside, I do think some of the criticisms of Simmons are media created.

[Ericb5]

I like the optimism but I just don't see Okafors trade value at close to the suggestions here. I think Ainge has his sights set a bit higher than Jah.

You think 3 and Smart is too much?

If Ainge wants him he is going to have to move at the draft. Okafor can be a go to scorer for a team with a horrible front court. I don't know what better player he could get outside of trading the Nets picks, which are some of the best draft assets in the league.


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I think 3 is too much.

Ainge will be aiming at Butler, Cousins caliber player.

If Okafor was in this draft you don't think that he would be 2nd or 3rd?

This draft stinks after the top 2.

Also he isn't getting Butler or Cousins unless he trades a lot more than 3.


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[76erFixer]

Okafor is clearly top 3 in this draft

[marcush]

You think 3 and Smart is too much?

If Ainge wants him he is going to have to move at the draft. Okafor can be a go to scorer for a team with a horrible front court. I don't know what better player he could get outside of trading the Nets picks, which are some of the best draft assets in the league.


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I think 3 is too much.

Ainge will be aiming at Butler, Cousins caliber player.

If Okafor was in this draft you don't think that he would be 2nd or 3rd?

This draft stinks after the top 2.

Also he isn't getting Butler or Cousins unless he trades a lot more than 3.

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The notion that Bryan Colangelo gets the good end of a deal with Danny Ainge is amusing.

[Ericb5]

I think 3 is too much.

Ainge will be aiming at Butler, Cousins caliber player.

If Okafor was in this draft you don't think that he would be 2nd or 3rd?

This draft stinks after the top 2.

Also he isn't getting Butler or Cousins unless he trades a lot more than 3.

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The notion that Bryan Colangelo gets the good end of a deal with Danny Ainge is amusing.

Maybe, but you are saying that Okafor isn't worth the 3rd pick, and you didn't answer if you thought he would be drafted in the top 3 of this draft.

I think if Okafor was in this draft that they would say that it is a 3 man draft. The drop off between 3 and 4 would be as big as the drop off between 2 and 3 is right now.


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[joyeuxnoel]

building around simmons

assuming hes a SF:

you'll need a backcourt who can both shoot, a PF who can stretch, and a C who can rim protect and preferably score


best fit and talent scenario:

PG- Dennis Smith Jr- 2017 pick
SG- Trade Okafor and lakers pick if needed for a guy who can score
SF- Simmons- franchise player, playmaker, rebounder, can defend wings, slasher, elite in transition
PF- Saric- playmaking stretch 4 who can rebound and hustles
C- Embiid- franchise player, go to scorer who can also provide elite rim protection

Targets for SG-

Cheap- Murray- can probably be acquired trading for 5th pick, which can be traded for with Noel + late pick.

Will score at next level, but his defense is iffy

Medium- McCollum- Shooter who fits great with this team. Problem is his defense is ****. Can probably be had for Okafor + other pieces

Expensive- Butler- Not a shooter but very good scorer and great defender. Already 26 and has injury issues, plus is going to probably cost a very expensive package like Okafor, Noel, and lakers pick.

[LloydFree]

Okafor is clearly top 3 in this draft

Yes, he'd be picked top 3 in this draft and it would be a mistake, just like it was a mistake to pick him #3 last year.

[ProcessDoctor]

Keith Pompey thinks we'll trade Okafor for #3 like many do.

Id be down but I'd need them to pay a hefty price or I'm sending him to PHX. Something like Okafor/24/26 for #3/BKN 2017/Bradley/Crowder is the lowest I'd go


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A top 3 pick, a top 5 pick and 2 good young 2-way perimeter players on decent contracts for Okafor??


Im all for getting value, but that just seems like an extremely unrealistic type of offer. Superstars have gotten less in return.

I think you're right that it is a steep offer for Okafor. The way I see Okaofor in 3 years is a 23/9 type player, and I think those players are hard to come by. It just so happens that we have another player with the potential to do that, and another player on the way in who plays the same position as Okafor. We know after #2, there is no player who currently looks like they will produce those types of numbers (not to say any of them can't or won't). The trade I proposed is ambitious, but I just don't want Boston feeling like in any way we are gift-wrapping Okafor to them. If he turns out to be a stud there, we better receive enough compensation for that. Maybe I'd be swap the BKN 2017 pick with the #16 this year if that was the deal-breaker, but we are giving up two 1st-round picks ourselves, even if they're late ones...

[76ciology]

https://basketballscouting.wordpress.com/2015/12/31/ben-simmons-scouting-report-2/

OUTSIDE SHOOTING

Creating such good looks for himself has been a little more challenging, though.

As you must have read it or watched it by now, Simmons is a notoriously poor shooter. Not only that, he is a remarkably unwilling outside shooter. According to hoop-math, Simmons has missed 67 percent of his 62 two-point jump-shots. And that’s even a bit misleading, since most of these two-point “jump-shots” are actually floaters, turnaround hooks or short-range toss-ups.

As far as actual jump-shots go, Simmons goes to extreme lengths not to attempt them. There was a play in the game against Marquette where Tim Quarterman drove and drew help from Simmons’ man, leaving him open for a potential catch-and-shoot 15-footer but Simmons didn’t even look at the basket, immediately dribbling his way out of the arc and resetting.

Whenever he has attempted an outside shot, one is then able to see why Simmons has no confidence in his jump-shot. He sets a short base, then elevates with little fluidity, very mechanically, to the point it seems like a push-up shot, with absolutely no touch.

Because of that, opponents have felt very comfortable sagging way off him. Henry Ellenson stood at the foul line when Simmons dribbled outside the arc. He was also able to double Quarterman aggressively on a pick-and-pop where Simmons screened and then stood still beyond the arc. In the game against Houston, Danrad Knowles backed off a couple of steps when Simmons caught the ball in the middle of the Cougars’ zone.

CLOSE-RANGE SCORING

With every opponent giving him a cushion, he has been unable to blow past most defenders in isolation and then attack the basket with explosiveness. He is quick and can go side-to-side to force the opponent off balance but when these defenders have managed to keep him in front or forced him to the side of the basket, Simmons has often tried awkward-looking floaters and short-range toss-ups with his right hand, instead of stepping-back and pulling-up from the in-between area.

In fact, despite having a strong preference for going left, which is his strong hand, Simmons more often than not attempts finishing with his right hand. As explained by SI’s Luke Winn, Simmons feels he can draw more fouls that way, as his large frame invites contact.

And he’s been correct so far, as he’s averaged 7.7 free throws per 40 minutes – with a quarter of his points on the season coming from the charity stripe. Simmons has converted 73% of his foul shots so far, appearing to be more comfortable with his mechanics in this instance, which allows you to hold out hope that he will one day develop into a passable live-ball jump-shooter.

As a live-ball finisher, I honestly think Simmons’ touch is only OK on those off-balance driving semi-layups. Feels like he leaves a lot of and-one opportunities on the table. He is also so-so from the post, where he’s almost always looking for a turnaround, right-handed jump-hook after a couple of bumps with the opponent or a face-up drive, since he isn’t the sort of player who looks to get physical on power moves and the turnaround, jump-shot isn’t an option at all for him.

But whenever Quarterman or Josh Gray have created something in the half-court on their own, Simmons has proven to have good hands to catch the ball on the move via cuts or diving down the lane out of the pick-and-roll. Though he has blown some easy lay-ins at rim level, it’s hard to argue with his 76% shooting on 75 attempts at the basket so far. Despite not always relying on his explosiveness, Simmons has flashed the ability to finish with power, leaping out of one foot or two feet, best seen in transition – which is where he excels the best.

Simmons is terrific on grab-and-go’s, collecting the defensive board and sprinting up the court to ignite the offense. He can then feed a runout with an on the money outlet pass, run the lane and play above the rim as a target for lobs, pass ahead and then receive back on the secondary break to attack a scrambling defense or change gears in the open court and blow by everyone to finish at the rim.

[Agnostifarian]

So I've noticed that Simmons has pulled away the longer the discussion has gone. Here's another poll on the subject.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/5/18/11701550/2016-nba-mock-draft-sixers-ben-simmons-lsu-brandon-ingram-duke

Simmons is currently winning 63% to 37%, with ~5,000 votes.

Here's my take on the "Simmons Resurgence" in the polls. ESPN anointed Simmons as the next coming prior to the NCAA season. However, as the games played out, Simmons showed some warts and Ingram surprised many. NCAA fans and scouts spent the winter months watching Simmons and Ingram play for their respective teams. Simmons game raised questions and Ingram's game answered questions. The NCAA games ended and we had a horserace.

Two months later, NBA fans tuned into the 2016 draft class. Many are making judgements based on internet chatter and/or video highlights as opposed to having watched extensive game footage of these prospects. The polls are moving as the lazy herd of ESPN disciples migrate through the draft season.

In the end, I will be freakin' psyched to support our #1 pick as either player will be a fine selection. I am still hoping that we make a deal with LAL and select Ingram and Simmons. Shoot the bullets, Bryan!!

[76ciology]

So I've noticed that Simmons has pulled away the longer the discussion has gone. Here's another poll on the subject.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/5/18/11701550/2016-nba-mock-draft-sixers-ben-simmons-lsu-brandon-ingram-duke

Simmons is currently winning 63% to 37%, with ~5,000 votes.

Here's my take on the "Simmons Resurgence" in the polls. ESPN anointed Simmons as the next coming prior to the NCAA season. However, as the games played out, Simmons showed some warts and Ingram surprised many. NCAA fans and scouts spent the winter months watching Simmons and Ingram play for their respective teams. Simmons game raised questions and Ingram's game answered questions. The NCAA games ended and we had a horserace.

Two months later, NBA fans tuned into the 2016 draft class. Many are making judgements based on internet chatter and/or video highlights as opposed to having watched extensive game footage of these prospects. The polls are moving as the lazy herd of ESPN disciples migrate through the draft season.

In the end, I will be freakin' psyched to support our #1 pick as either player will be a fine selection. I am still hoping that we make a deal with LAL and select Ingram and Simmons. Shoot the bullets, Bryan!!

Quote:
What makes people think that Ingram is a harder worker than Simmons? I've not seen anything to indicate Simmons isn't a hard worker or that he doesn't have a high work ethic on his basketball skills.


Simple.

Gained 20 pounds prior to season start.
Went from #4/#3 option, looking timid during his first 2 weeks of basketball.
Became #2 option, clearly under Grayson Allen
Turned himself borderline 3 and D beginning of the season. Slowly increased blocks and rebound rate.
Became an elite Iso player option at the NCAA level.
Two different months, shot 43% and 48% behind the arc.
Played out of position, from SF into PF while Amile Jefferson was out.

Ben Simmons did not have that progression. Basic statistics don't reveal role changes. They do show trends.

Duke, won more games, while being short-handed.
LSU, lost more games as the season progressed.

I don't buy the "well they faced better competition argument. Ingram found ways to excel DESPITE that. Duke won, DESPITE that.

But I can't hold Simmons to the same standard because of his coach? or the fact that Simmons never showed that kind of dramatic improvement as a midrange shooter?

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/ben-simmons-1/splits/2016/

As said before, the difference between December, his hottest month, and March, his 2nd coldest month, is obvious.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/ben-simmons-1/splits/2016/

From 65% FG to 54% FG
75%FT to 63%FT
22.5ppg to 16ppg
5.2apg to 3.1apg
1.3bpg to 0.25bpg

It's not the shooting that's the biggest problem. It's the fact that his elite skills with playmaking and defense all downtrended.

In December, Ben Simmons was obvious for #1 by lightyears.
By January I changed my mind and had Ingram #1.
By March, DX and other basketball outlets did the same.

The downward trend, is obvious.

Contrast Ingram:
November vs March
38.8% vs 40% FG
24% vs 42.5% 3pt FG
56% vs 66% FT
3.7rpg vs 7.42rpg
1apg vs 2.2apg
1.1stlpg vs 1.1stlpg
1.1bpg vs 1.1bpg
10.8ppg vs 18.86ppg

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/brandon-ingram-1/splits/2016/

Outside of the shooting, everything else was either on par, or FAR better. Near double 3pt%. Double rebounding. Double assists. Near double scoring.

So I expect the next argument to be "Well Ben Simmons still has better overall averages for the season" to which I say, I'd rather have the guy that starts at a lower bar, and shows the continual improvement.

It didn't matter it was March.
It didnt matter that it was the ACC tournament with tougher competition
It didn't matter that Duke basically ran a 7-8 man rotation after Amile Jefferson got hurt.
Ingram improved. Ingram gained more responsibilities. Duke, succeeded.

Not bad for a guy that was basically 18.5 years old.

Imagine how well he would do if he was a full year older like Ben Simmons.

Brandon Ingram
NCAA tournament
23ppg
45%FG
37.5% 3ptFG
6rpg
2.1apg
1.1stlpg
1bpg
1 TOpg

Ben Simmons Conference Tournament (DNQ NCAA, Denied NIT)
12.5ppg
52.6%RT
10rpg
1apg
1stlpg
0.5bpg
3TOpg

That's why I have Ingram as my #1.
_________________

Saw this in a lakers forum. Not my post so don't kill the messenger.

P.S. If there's a flaw in Ingram that I see is his low FG% that I guess would persist until he gain strength. Yes, Ingram had a really bad first month but eventually gain momentum and his improvement has been noticeable. And with Simmons, I've posted the highlight video of his last game against Texas A&M where he struggled against long defenders and defense sagging off him or forcing him left.

[Kobblehead]

I was Team Ingram coming out of highschool. He underperformed for top prospect standards and Simmons did not, so I began to value Ben higher. I don't subscribe to the concept that Ingram developed momentum from his on-court performance. His play during his freshman season had the opposite effect, in my eyes.

[Negrodamus]

So I've noticed that Simmons has pulled away the longer the discussion has gone. Here's another poll on the subject.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/5/18/11701550/2016-nba-mock-draft-sixers-ben-simmons-lsu-brandon-ingram-duke

Simmons is currently winning 63% to 37%, with ~5,000 votes.

Here's my take on the "Simmons Resurgence" in the polls. ESPN anointed Simmons as the next coming prior to the NCAA season. However, as the games played out, Simmons showed some warts and Ingram surprised many. NCAA fans and scouts spent the winter months watching Simmons and Ingram play for their respective teams. Simmons game raised questions and Ingram's game answered questions. The NCAA games ended and we had a horserace.

Two months later, NBA fans tuned into the 2016 draft class. Many are making judgements based on internet chatter and/or video highlights as opposed to having watched extensive game footage of these prospects. The polls are moving as the lazy herd of ESPN disciples migrate through the draft season.

In the end, I will be freakin' psyched to support our #1 pick as either player will be a fine selection. I am still hoping that we make a deal with LAL and select Ingram and Simmons. Shoot the bullets, Bryan!!

Quote:
What makes people think that Ingram is a harder worker than Simmons? I've not seen anything to indicate Simmons isn't a hard worker or that he doesn't have a high work ethic on his basketball skills.


Simple.

Gained 20 pounds prior to season start.
Went from #4/#3 option, looking timid during his first 2 weeks of basketball.
Became #2 option, clearly under Grayson Allen
Turned himself borderline 3 and D beginning of the season. Slowly increased blocks and rebound rate.
Became an elite Iso player option at the NCAA level.
Two different months, shot 43% and 48% behind the arc.
Played out of position, from SF into PF while Amile Jefferson was out.

Ben Simmons did not have that progression. Basic statistics don't reveal role changes. They do show trends.

Duke, won more games, while being short-handed.
LSU, lost more games as the season progressed.

I don't buy the "well they faced better competition argument. Ingram found ways to excel DESPITE that. Duke won, DESPITE that.

But I can't hold Simmons to the same standard because of his coach? or the fact that Simmons never showed that kind of dramatic improvement as a midrange shooter?

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/ben-simmons-1/splits/2016/

As said before, the difference between December, his hottest month, and March, his 2nd coldest month, is obvious.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/ben-simmons-1/splits/2016/

From 65% FG to 54% FG
75%FT to 63%FT
22.5ppg to 16ppg
5.2apg to 3.1apg
1.3bpg to 0.25bpg

It's not the shooting that's the biggest problem. It's the fact that his elite skills with playmaking and defense all downtrended.

In December, Ben Simmons was obvious for #1 by lightyears.
By January I changed my mind and had Ingram #1.
By March, DX and other basketball outlets did the same.

The downward trend, is obvious.

Contrast Ingram:
November vs March
38.8% vs 40% FG
24% vs 42.5% 3pt FG
56% vs 66% FT
3.7rpg vs 7.42rpg
1apg vs 2.2apg
1.1stlpg vs 1.1stlpg
1.1bpg vs 1.1bpg
10.8ppg vs 18.86ppg

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/brandon-ingram-1/splits/2016/

Outside of the shooting, everything else was either on par, or FAR better. Near double 3pt%. Double rebounding. Double assists. Near double scoring.

So I expect the next argument to be "Well Ben Simmons still has better overall averages for the season" to which I say, I'd rather have the guy that starts at a lower bar, and shows the continual improvement.

It didn't matter it was March.
It didnt matter that it was the ACC tournament with tougher competition
It didn't matter that Duke basically ran a 7-8 man rotation after Amile Jefferson got hurt.
Ingram improved. Ingram gained more responsibilities. Duke, succeeded.

Not bad for a guy that was basically 18.5 years old.

Imagine how well he would do if he was a full year older like Ben Simmons.

Brandon Ingram
NCAA tournament
23ppg
45%FG
37.5% 3ptFG
6rpg
2.1apg
1.1stlpg
1bpg
1 TOpg

Ben Simmons Conference Tournament (DNQ NCAA, Denied NIT)
12.5ppg
52.6%RT
10rpg
1apg
1stlpg
0.5bpg
3TOpg

That's why I have Ingram as my #1.
_________________

Saw this in a lakers forum. Not my post so don't kill the messenger.

P.S. If there's a flaw in Ingram that I see is his low FG% that I guess would persist until he gain strength. Yes, Ingram had a really bad first month but eventually gain momentum and his improvement has been noticeable. And with Simmons, I've posted the highlight video of his last game against Texas A&M where he struggled against long defenders and defense sagging off him or forcing him left.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[skulky]

Id be down but I'd need them to pay a hefty price or I'm sending him to PHX. Something like Okafor/24/26 for #3/BKN 2017/Bradley/Crowder is the lowest I'd go


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A top 3 pick, a top 5 pick and 2 good young 2-way perimeter players on decent contracts for Okafor??


Im all for getting value, but that just seems like an extremely unrealistic type of offer. Superstars have gotten less in return.

The minimum that I could live with is 3 and Smart for Okafor.

I know that smart is not a shooter, and we really need players that can shoot, but he is a tough nosed defender that can also handle the ball and make plays. He would improve is immediately.

Plus if we made that deal we could draft Murray and play him next to Smart, and we basically picked up a starting backcourt.


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my thoughts exactly, i really like smart. he's just the type of player you want on your team when it matters. i also think boston being in more of a win now stage have given smart less time to develop especially as a playmaker.